Console Lineup: The Year Ahead

[Calantus]

If I ever step into an arcade by myself I'd go for the shooters since I don't have laser guns at home. :P

[stray]

What shooters are in arcades now? I don't think I've played anything since Time Crisis.

Or are you talking about scrolling shoot em ups?

[schild]

House of the Dead 4 is the latest shooter.

The latest SHMUP is probably, well, that you'll find in America is probably Ibara Pink Sweets (Cave PCB) or Senko no Ronde (Grev/Naomi GD-ROM).

[Trippy]

Microsoft on Take Two:

One company that says it's not in the running is Microsoft. Because today's independent publishers are platform agnostic - that is to say, they build games for all major systems - taking over one would result in a massive revenue loss for Microsoft, as all development would be redirected toward the Xbox 360.

"We could never launch an acquisition bid at a third party publisher," said Shane Kim, corporate vice president of Microsoft (Charts) Game Studios.

[schild]

Never?

Bullshit. Just not this time.

Sega/Sammy should buy Take 2. Just because their American presence is total dick.

[Riggswolfe]

Never?

Bullshit. Just not this time.

Sega/Sammy should buy Take 2. Just because their American presence is total dick.

Maybe they learned something from Rare?

[Trippy]

Rare was a development studio, not a 3rd party publisher (they did publish a handful of their own titles).

[Yegolev]

I agree with Schild.  Once the weather changes, it could certainly happen.  In this case, the change will be once MS has acquired defacto monopoly of the games sector as it has done with the OS sector.  At that point, cross-platform games will be practically nonexistant and purchase of a competing publisher becomes sound business.

[stray]

Also (I forgot about this):

Ace Combat 6 announced on the 360 (but no word on PS3 yet --- MOTHERFUCKERS!  ).

Even worse, I've read more than a few times from XBox users how they don't care unless they get to play with a flightstick (Dumbasses. It's an arcade sim. Not Flight Simulator).

That's irritating. Who the hell are these people, and why are they allowed to play this game?

Its almost as bad as this guy I heard awhile back calling Gears of War revolutionary for having a "behind the back" perspective, and how the 360 was a must buy because of that. I kid you not. He said that. Somehow, some way, this guy had never seen or played a game in third person apparently.^*



* Don't mind me. I'm venting because of AC6. I know that not all 360 users are this ignorant.


Anyways....







[EDIT] P.S. Seriously. He said that. I didn't misunderstand him. He went on about how cool it was to "see his character".

Perhaps, somehow, he'd never played any game before. Period.


Only one person has amazed me on that level before. When I was at a party, and some dude sparked up a conversation with me about a Black Sabbath t-shirt I was wearing. "Hey cool.. Another Sabbath fan.." Whatever, right?

Next thing I know, he starts flapping about the Dio albums. Holy shit. Not one mention of Ozzy -- as if the real Black Sabbath didn't even exist or something.

[Strazos]

How could playing with a flight stick detract from the game in any way?

[Soln]

"Afrika" on 1Up:

An action title featuring the desert, a rhino and various wilderness.
Other Info: Number of Players: 1

Deerhunter? 

[stray]

How could playing with a flight stick detract from the game in any way?

I could think of several things. Wingman commands (which you'll need 3 buttons for); dispersion commands (of which there are three -- accessed through holding down a button and bringing up a HUD); the fact you're carrying more types of ammo in that game than any true flight sim, and therefore, wouldn't have the buttons or switches to access them conveniently on a stick (unless you like pulling down and scrolling through menus on a flightstick); another button for accessing special weapons; a button for missle firing; another button for guns; a button for target cycling; left/right yawing; one button for boresight mode; two buttons for throttle (though, of course, that's one switch on a flightstick); a button for radar functions; a button changing vantage points; a button combo for autopilot; then of course a stick for directing your aircraft; and then another stick for camera moving.

Then there's things outside the flightgame: Storyline dialogue functions (which plays out like an adventure game); various nuances in the targeting and minimap systems; all the equipment and debriefing menus.


But the most important thing is, I never said a flightstick detracted in the first place. That wasn't my point. I just said it was stupid to expect Ace Combat to be a flightstick game. But since you asked, you have my answer. It's been a gamepad game for over 10 years now, and it's irritating to find these knuckleheads buying consoles and talking that stupid shit.

[EDIT]

Also, I need to clarify that I have nothing against flightsticks. I've played many games with them, and I like them. But the reason why they're the obvious option on PC's is because there's this other thing called the keyboard. You couldn't just use a flightstick on a console game like Ace Combat without at least adding a keyboard too (and needless to say, but a keyboard would be overkill for the type of game it's trying to be -- a fairly carefree action title for couch potatoes, that tries to bridge the gap between sims. It's not a full blown sim. It only needs as many functions as a gamepad provides -- but more functions than what a flightstick alone could offer).

[Strazos]

I've seen some flight sticks with a whole mess of buttons, triggers, and knobs or whatnot. I get your point, though I think the Option and Functionality would be nice.

[stray]

Heh. Speaking of all the BD shit I was arguing in that other thread, this game will probably make an argument for it more than I ever could...


Also, there wasn't any footage when the thread was made, so I should do this anyways.

R&C Future: Tools of Destruction


------

[EDIT]

Also, I guess I'll be buying this for third time (damn you Team Ninja).

Sigma

1080p@60fps apparently too

[Riggswolfe]

Damn, those AC6 screenshots look nice. I wonder if it will look that good in the real thing.

[stray]

I wouldn't doubt it. Even the PS2 versions look pretty good at times.

[Strazos]

Sorry, watched the R&C video, and all I could do is shrug. Sorry, but I don't see how that makes an argument for BD.

Admittedly, I don't even play the games.

[stray]

Oh look, Strazos shrugged. Again.

Color me surprised.


Sorry bud, I just spent two pages talking about this stuff. Not going to get in it with you too.

[Azazel]

Even worse, I've read more than a few times from XBox users how they don't care unless they get to play with a flightstick (Dumbasses. It's an arcade sim. Not Flight Simulator).

That's irritating. Who the hell are these people, and why are they allowed to play this game?

Its almost as bad as this guy I heard awhile back calling Gears of War revolutionary for having a "behind the back" perspective, and how the 360 was a must buy because of that. I kid you not. He said that. Somehow, some way, this guy had never seen or played a game in third person apparently.^*

Sounds like something Schild would say, actually. I know he's a big fan of game/genre specific controllers.

OTOH, reading random posts from mouth-breathers on the internets doesn't really mean much, to a dev or anyone else. Don't stress. You'll get a 360 eventually so you'll get to play it, it just may not be on launch day.

[schild]

I'm not a big fan of specific controllers. I hate flight joysticks in particular. And I've never owned a steering wheel. I've been playing everything from the original Ridge Racer, Gran Turismo, to Forza, Etc using a D-Pad and face buttons. I got quite good at it. I've played every flight sim ever with with a controller or keyboard/mouse. Now, I did use a joystick setup for TWO games - Descent and Star Wars Episode 1 Racer (Pod Racer, if you will).

The only genre that needs specific controllers is rhythm.

As for third person action. I liked it more in Lost Planet, Splinter Cell, and Tomb Raider than I did in Gears of War. In fact, I really hate the way Gears of War handles. Too much context sensitive positioning if you ask me. I'm quite good at finding cover in Lost Planet and staying there, I don't need a full overly dramatic animation set to hide behind a rock, just give me a crouch.

I'm a big fan of things getting more realistic, but don't let that take away from gameplay. I expect certain things to take a certain amount of time (or frames of animation) in a game. Crouching in GoW is just too slow, and gun animations are getting a little ridiculous also. I fear for that new PS3 title - the name alludes me now. You're the male Lara Croft. They're boasting 1200 different animations for the main character. I expect more than half of those to take an uncomfortable extra half second, making really fast action become pretty miserable.

Finally, I hate that weird third person Gauntlet type action that a lot of games have going these days. Crackdown did it, but managed to keep things fast. Other games you may have seen it in include Max Payne, Bullet Witch, Saint's Row, Just Cause, and... ahem... 50 Cent's Bulletproof. Grand Theft Auto IV will no doubt have it in spades. It's just sloppy game design if you ask me. I fear the worst for Stranglehold.

Now, can I play and enjoy a lot of these games? Yes. Do I think they're shitty for the most part? ... Yea, I do. Especially the whole GTA crew and it's clones. I think they're total trash. They try to be too many things. Driving game, flying game, shooting game. Meh. At least get ONE of them right.

I don't even know what this post is about anymore.

But the one thing I'm not elitist about is controllers. Hell, I finished AvP on the Jaguar. OK, I'll grant this, some games need joysticks (shmups, competitive fighters). But that's it!

[Azazel]

Interesting, and quite contrary to your post about wanting a pile of sport-specific controllers for the Wii as neither the Wii-mote nor the accessory pack with little teent tennis racket/golf club/etc frames were good enough for you.

Not sure what you mean by Gauntlet type action. You mean like the game Gauntlet (elf needs food!)?

I'm not seeing the Max Payne connection there, though I haven't played the other titles you mention, I found MP/2 to both be very good fun games, though I played them on PC, so maybe that's where we differ?

[schild]

I should have been more clear. I didn't mention the Wii in the above post, because the Wiimote on it's own is a terrible piece of shit for anything that requires more than 2 buttons. Which, ironically, explains all the minigames coming out for the system (which I just bitched about in the other Wii thread). That controller made additions necessary, and as long as we're making those additions, as Nintendo put forth when it showed the controller the first time, I figured it would be best if the shells were contextual. As such, my want for very specific shells for each game type.

And yes, I mean Gauntlet. Arms out, firing straight ahead (or two the sides in some games, i.e. Just Cause), while running toward the next area or an item. All the while monsters/mobs/whatever are just running at you from all directions. That's all most of the third person action genre is - a 3D, 3rd person Gauntlet. It's only once we add very specific Things to the games that we end up with Splinter Cell, Lost Planet, or Metal Gear Solid. Without those bits that make those titles the great games they are, you end up with a large deal of sloppy/lazy/boring game design.

Oh, what's this new area. Ok, I'll blast my way through here.

Seriously, sometimes I just feel like I'm a bullet-shotting oscillating fan.

[Azazel]

OK I get you now. I don't entirely agree with your Wii-mote need, but then again it's just personal preferences. I think the fucking thing should have also shipped with a Wavebird-type controller, so the system can run some normal games as well as Wiimote-swinging party and sports games, but there you go...

I see what you're saying with regard to third-person shooters, though I don't really find the Gauntlet analogy especially apt. To me. they're more like FPS that have had the camera movesd about 5 feet backwards. Then again, I haven't played a lot of 3PS besides the Payne series, and some of The Punisher (which is basically Max Payne .5), but yeah, very FPS-y rather then gauntlet-y.

Then again, conceptually, there's not a massive difference between your standard run-and-gun corridor-based FPS and Gauntlet in a sense. Maybe your opinion would also include those. Even with the minor addition of the Z-axis.

[schild]

Z-Axis isn't a minor addition. If you need extreme cases, look at Prey and FEAR. Or even anything with vehicles.

3PS and FPS titles feel 1,000% different to me. I'm not sure how to explain it. But it might be the use of the Z-Axis. A first person shooter would change completely if you were looking at it from the top down. A Z-Axis would be nearly impossible. On the other hand, most 3PS titles wouldn't CHANGE so much as get easier if the camera was just pointing straight down at the character. Which would make it... Gauntlet. Most would be a bad version of Gauntlet, but Gauntlet nonetheless.

Every game could use the phrase "Red Giant Needs Food Badly" though.

[Azazel]

I'm still not seeing it as an either/or in the same sense. Look at the first stage of Max Payne, for example. Fighting up and down flights of stairs, down the train tracks ..a big part of MP2 is shooting people above and below you in the series of condemed buildings. You throw Grenades over other objects (as in a FPS) and shoot/throw grenades through windows. They also both feature a lot of large, open areas as you'd see in a typical FPS. There's no vehicles or ladders (that I recall) but the gameplay is closer to Soldier of Fortune 2 than it is to Gauntlet or Smash TV or even escape from castle Wolfenstein.

Sure, you can take it to an extreme with FEAR or Prey, but (not that I've played them) they're more the FPS exceptions than the rules.

Is it because I play my 3PS on the PC using the FPS WASD/mouse control scheme instead of on a console with the dual-shock? The few worthwhile 3PS games that I've found worth playing have all been on the PC. (GTA3/VC/SA amongst them). I'm sure I've played a number of shitty ones on the PC, but they tend to become uninstalled quickly, and so are forgettable. Even so, I'm still looking toward the horizon, even if Max's bonce is in the middle of the screen to look past. I can also choose to look up, down, strafe, and so on. Gauntlet-alikes, I'm seeing a much more limited distance but the entire peripherary, and strafing feels awkward rather than natural. So again, the feel to me between FPS and 3PS is very close, and both are very different to top-down.

We may have to agree to disagree on this one, I suspect.

Also, how did we get onto 3PS games?

[stray]

I fear for that new PS3 title - the name alludes me now. You're the male Lara CroftThey're boasting 1200 different animations for the main character. I expect more than half of those to take an uncomfortable extra half second, making really fast action become pretty miserable.

Uncharted

The animations are the first thing that stood out to me in the trailer. If the game is anything like that, I will be blown away.


---

I generally prefer 3rd person to first. There's just more options available for physical moves and acrobatics. I like that kind of stuff in my games. Moving around in first person is generally dull and lifeless. As is melee.


As for 3rd person shooters specifically though, it's iffy. Targeting is more the focus than acrobatics there, so I prefer 1st person in that respect.

One shooter I would have liked to see in third person though is Riddick. That guy was meant for aerial knife attacks, tumbling, and all that shit --- Of course, after all is said and done, I'm really just saying that I would have preferred a completely different Riddick game (the actual one wasn't bad though).

[Strazos]

Oh look, Strazos shrugged. Again.

Color me surprised.


Sorry bud, I just spent two pages talking about this stuff. Not going to get in it with you too.

You didn't even make a point. I was just looking for it. If you like the game, that's fine, but that still doesn't tell anyone anything about why a new storage medium is all that necessary right now.

I mean, what could they possibly need all that space for in...I guess you could describe it as an action platformer?

[schild]

Alright. Fuck. Listen.

Blu-Ray holds more.

We're not going to have to deal with a bunch of 3-4 disc RPGs and 2-3 DVD RPGs like we did these past 2 generations (and we're going to experience again on the 360.

Also, BD allows people making games in other genres to do more impressive shit with textures - like texture streaming LARGE amounts instead of the tiny amounts present in GoW - make no doubt about it, Gears was hampered by being on a 9GB disc.

If you can't see that, you need to take off the fucking blinders.

[Strazos]

I realize there are tricks to be played using BD. But lack thereof is not even close to being a dealbreaker, for me anyway.


But what I was really getting at is that Stray posted a video, saying that it made some kind of point that this is why we need BD, or something. I'm pretty sure we both saw the same video, and while it looked nice, I didn't see anything that couldn't be done on just a DVD.

And as an aside, in RPGs, how often are you swapping discs, really? FF7 was 3. The BG1 was like 5, plus the expansion (prolly a bad example, as there is no swapping once you have the expansion installed). I don't remember a whole lot of swapping. Certainly not enough for me to care, anyway, though it seems like it's a pet peeve of yours, which is fine.

[Azazel]

I don't mind the idea of larger-capacity discs at all. I'm not super-keen on the trojan-horse format wars as I have no interest in B-R movies now or for the forseeable future. If the drive wasn't such an expensive addition to the PS3 (and maybe if they could get their shit together as far as backward compatability goes) then I'd probably be in the market for one now.

When these 2 issues are yesterday's news, and the machine drops to, say AU$250-300 then I'll no doubt buy one. It'll happen eventually, as it has happened for every other console to date, and in that time the software library will expand and mature, and there'll be some fantastic games (whatever the cream of the crop is right now) for dirt cheap, while others will be into their second or third iteration (ie FIFA 2009 will include all of the teams in the world, as well as hi-def creases in uniforms and Ronaldhino's horse teeth) so there's no need to stress.

Not willing to pay it now? Fine. Buy it later.

easy.

[Murgos]

And as an aside, in RPGs, how often are you swapping discs, really? FF7 was 3. The BG1 was like 5, plus the expansion (prolly a bad example, as there is no swapping once you have the expansion installed). I don't remember a whole lot of swapping. Certainly not enough for me to care, anyway, though it seems like it's a pet peeve of yours, which is fine.

Not to put to fine a point on it but are you not paying attention?

How many floppies did Darklands come on? I recall that it was in the 20's.  I know that I've run into games that had 10 or more install cd's.  How many DVD's did are we seeing games come with now?  Two?  Three?  More?  It's just a matter of time dude and that time is not far off.

[stray]

It should be mentioned that games like FFVII were being released towards the second half of the PS1's lifespan. So it's not a fair comparison really. The XBox 360 is only a year old. The PS3 is a few months old (and a mere couple of weeks old for Euros). Disc swapping should not be such an early "feature" for these machines.


Also (and I think I touched on this somewhere else once): Seeing that Blu-Ray is region free, localized game versions can fit on one disc as well. Just having one localized version of high quality audio tracks takes a lot of space. Now there can be multiple versions.

In addition to the game stuff, it's also possible to add in other little features -- like "Making Of" documentaries, interviews, etc.. Not saying any of that is crucial, but it is possible. It is an option. And options are good.

[bhodi]

There was a ton of that kind of thing on God of War 1.. they had "the making of", cut levels, cut characters, interviews with the developers, hidden content, bonus movies with extra background plot; it was completely stuffed. I beat it on god mode, so I don't remember how many of them had to be unlocked, but they were there. Also, the 800 number with kratos giving you a tour was totally cheesetastic.

[Strazos]

Well, you certainly pay a hefty premium for it at the moment.

[schild]

Not really. Games cost $60. Great. I was paying $70 for AAA games back on the SNES. Also, $600 for the console. Eh. OK. People spend that much on graphics cards. I can cope. Especially since HOME is free.