Two-week (more or less) thoughts.

[Ironwood]

1. I cant' believe a part of them wanted to raid MC. And still planned to raid it tomorrow as well as helping those who are not attuned. Considering one of the warrior getting owned so hard by Steamvault Bog Lords,I guess he probably wanted something lighter but still retain that massive epic instance feel lol. The reasoning they gave was 'we need to train to raid together as a guild' 

Retards.

Really.

Run away fast and run away long.

[ClydeJr]

1. I cant' believe a part of them wanted to raid MC. And still planned to raid it tomorrow as well as helping those who are not attuned. Considering one of the warrior getting owned so hard by Steamvault Bog Lords,I guess he probably wanted something lighter but still retain that massive epic instance feel lol. The reasoning they gave was 'we need to train to raid together as a guild' 

To honest, I'd love to raid into MC. The reason: I've never been past Geddon. My guild is pretty casual (no class or spec requirements, just do what you think is fun). By the time we got enough people high enough and geared enough to start into MC, we hit the pre-BC blues and people stopped showing up. So I've never seen the end of MC. Never stepped foot inside Onyxia, BWL, AQ40, or Naxx. Even though most of the gear is crappy by BC standards, I'd still like to go in there at least once just to experience it.

[Phred]

1. I cant' believe a part of them wanted to raid MC. And still planned to raid it tomorrow as well as helping those who are not attuned. Considering one of the warrior getting owned so hard by Steamvault Bog Lords,I guess he probably wanted something lighter but still retain that massive epic instance feel lol. The reasoning they gave was 'we need to train to raid together as a guild' 

To honest, I'd love to raid into MC. The reason: I've never been past Geddon. My guild is pretty casual (no class or spec requirements, just do what you think is fun). By the time we got enough people high enough and geared enough to start into MC, we hit the pre-BC blues and people stopped showing up. So I've never seen the end of MC. Never stepped foot inside Onyxia, BWL, AQ40, or Naxx. Even though most of the gear is crappy by BC standards, I'd still like to go in there at least once just to experience it.

Ya it's too bad WoW decided to break the mold and make all pre-expansion content effectively a complete waste of time the way they did. In EQ people still raided the orignial planes of fear and hate well into the 4th or 5th expansion, and old content was still worth doiing by up and coming guilds as they leveled past where it was originally tuned for. It's still kind of boggling with Blizz's glacial content creation speed that they'd decide to junk such a huge amount of it.

[Merusk]

...

Do we have to go over the why, yet again? Plz no, mommy.

[Dren]

This might have already been rehashed many times, but I missed it.  I was thinking through this the other day and only came up with the following.

Blizzard wanted to be sure people had to purchase BC.  So, they made a very clear and crisp break between the original content and BC.  They also made it so there was a huge incentive to want the BC stuff.  Thus, anyone that purchased BC effectively left the older content behind.

My thought is that once Blizzard feels they have milked the BC off-the-shelf revenue, they will combine BC with the original in a new box-set.  They'll rework the original content to include the new item sets, etc. by working the instance level system into the older instances.  They will probably put in more of those "Finish in 45 minutes and win an extra carrot" too.

This will all happen over the next 1 to 1 1/2 years to keep people satisfied with new or "old" things to do before the next big expansion comes out.  Then, you'll go through the same old thing of being "forced" to purchase the new content and leaving the old behind for another day.

That's how I would have done it myself actually.  Pretty smart and from the numbers, it seems to have worked.  Time will tell on the transition though.

[Ironwood]

Onyxia is a 40 man instance that doesn't suck.

However, attunement does.

[Merusk]

My thought is that once Blizzard feels they have milked the BC off-the-shelf revenue, they will combine BC with the original in a new box-set.  They'll rework the original content to include the new item sets, etc. by working the instance level system into the older instances.  They will probably put in more of those "Finish in 45 minutes and win an extra carrot" too.

If they do, it will be a change from the statements they have made to date.  They've said a few times there are no intentions of going back and revisiting 'old' content.  It's old, and been around for nearly 2 years in some cases and they'd rather spend the time & money developing new stuff.  It's there for those who want to go back and experience it, but that's it.

 As to the remarks of "but it's wasted!1"  Blizz's response has been, "So Scarlet Monestary, Deadmines, etc are wasted content when the majority of the game is beyond that point?"  They're stretching there, because there's a difference in group size & classes you need to run between 5-man and raid content but they do have a point.  Ony was 15-manned by some friends of mine with one death - a 63 mage in quest gear.  If you get a bug up your ass to go do it, you can.

No, the reason for the equipment reboot was to get folks on an equal footing.  Changing the raid size fucks things up majorly.  What's the point of growing your guild to run MC/ BWL/ Naxx then cutting 2/3 (or more) of them loose when you start to run 25-mans.   Additionally, when the majority were only running MC - at best - you're falling into that EQ trap of only desigining for the minority of your players while casuals run around in their shit-gear trying to hit ancient (in MMO terms) content so they can work-up to the new, good stuff.

[Jayce]

As to the remarks of "but it's wasted!1"  Blizz's response has been, "So Scarlet Monestary, Deadmines, etc are wasted content when the majority of the game is beyond that point?" 

 Deadmines is good xp/loot for the late teens/early 20s.  SM is great for 35-45ish.  BWL and AQ40, while they are ostensibly fun instances, are good for exactly squat, since you have to be 60 but the gear is a significant downgrade from green quest rewards 15 minutes into Outland.

[Dren]

Well, if anything they should go back and make those older instances easier to be more inline with the way TBC content is done.

If I were lvl'ing a character up from 0 to 70 now, I certainly wouldn't waste any time running instances to get equipment.  I wouldn't even run them for the quests.  You certainly don't need them to hit 60.  Once you hit 58-60, go to Outlands and you'll instantly have better equipment than anything you had previously by far.

If they leave it like it is, the progression for new players or new alts would be:
0-50 the old fashioned way with normal quests, dungeon quests, etc.
50-60 with just basic questing and grinding
60+ TBC
70 - Go back occasionally to the old instances to get gear that is nowhere near as good as what you have.

It really wouldn't take much to make those dungeons viable again.  They just don't make any sense as they stand today.  Tone them down so they make sense for the 50-60 leveling process and you're done.

Although, I suppose it doesn't make any sense from a resource standpoint.  Why waste the time when new content is what everyone *really* wants.  It is still just hard to see it all wasted. /shrug

[WayAbvPar]

I think it would be interesting to see them add some solo and/or duo instances. They wouldn't have to be huge; maybe like 1 wing of SM or something. Someplace where you could quest and get some decent loot without having to endure a PUG. Maybe limit the number of times they can be run to prevent farming...once a week or something.

[Megrim]

Well, if anything they should go back and make those older instances easier to be more inline with the way TBC content is done.

If I were lvl'ing a character up from 0 to 70 now, I certainly wouldn't waste any time running instances to get equipment.  I wouldn't even run them for the quests.  You certainly don't need them to hit 60.  Once you hit 58-60, go to Outlands and you'll instantly have better equipment than anything you had previously by far.

If they leave it like it is, the progression for new players or new alts would be:
0-50 the old fashioned way with normal quests, dungeon quests, etc.
50-60 with just basic questing and grinding
60+ TBC
70 - Go back occasionally to the old instances to get gear that is nowhere near as good as what you have.

It really wouldn't take much to make those dungeons viable again.  They just don't make any sense as they stand today.  Tone them down so they make sense for the 50-60 leveling process and you're done.

Although, I suppose it doesn't make any sense from a resource standpoint.  Why waste the time when new content is what everyone *really* wants.  It is still just hard to see it all wasted. /shrug

It doesn't really have to work that way though, because if we are talking about the optimal progression path to 70 - yes; however if played for fun, the instances on the way to 70 are quite enjoyable. For example, i'm levelling a rogue atm (being a relative newbie to WoW) and my friends are playing alts when they aren't in Kara. I'm in no rush to "get to the endgame", and they have all been there and do it. So we play for fun, doing things the stupid, non-powergamer way.

A couple of nights ago we ran a four-man VC, with my rogue, a hunter, a shaman (Dranei) and a mage, all around 22. While there was some gear to be gained (Tunic of Westfall, Cruel Barb), it wasn't really about that at all. It was about the mage "blink-kiting", the hunter running out of ammo mid-run and other antics.

Or, last night on the Gnomer run, even with a level 70 oomkin for speed:




(I was low level enough to pull across the room.)

[Dren]

Oh I agree that a new player would probably be interested in these instances, but actual new players coming to the game will be very few and fewer as the years go on.  It's all good really.  I'm happy with it the way it is.

By the way, I'm not talking about the lower level instances.  Deadmines, Gnomer, Stockades, Scarlet Monestery, etc.  Those are all great instances that help quite a bit while leveling up.  I'm talking more about the huge time sinks that occur with Black Rock Depths, Black Rock Spires, Molten Core, Onyxia Attunement, and on up.  Basically the content that took being a lvl 60 char and then better equipement as you went up in difficulty.

Basically, by the time you get to the level you would normally be hitting those places, you'll be ready for Outlands and scooping up items that blow anything before it away.

What I'm saying is drop those dungeons down so that it makes sense to hit them at level 50-55 or something.  Then they would be more inline with the leveling progression.  Right now, if you blink your eyes between 59-60 you'll never even know they existed.

I agree WAP.  Smaller group instances would be interesting.  Even though I can (and do) put in a lot of time with the game, it is in small increments and at odd hours (to everyone else in my guild anyway.)  I play for 1-2 hours early evening, so I miss out on a ton of 5-man instances.  I can get on some on the weekends where my playtime opens up more, but it would be nice to hit some during the week too.

Small group instances would provide some flexibility that might fit within my normal play schedule.  I'd be all over it.