Barebones Advice, for a Canuck

[SurfD]

Before you flame me, I DO realise that El Gallo already posted a similar question, however, I belive my question is sufficiently different to warrent a new topic (plus, this keeps it from getting buried at the bottom of someone elses posts)

My current system is starting to show its age (P4 1.5, 4x agp capability) and so I am thinking of doing a core upgrade.  It also doesent hurt that my sister is willing to buy my current core system off me.

Anyhow, I am an Intel fan, and before I go hitting the usual round of tech sites for review/benchmark browsing, I figured I would ask here for some opinions.

I am currently looking at upgrading the following, just not sure exactly what names/models I want to get for a few of the components:

Case: nothing really special here, need a few more slots for fans.  not looking for side windows or the like.

Power supply: Probably come with the case, but I am looking at around 450w minimum.  Should I do 500 or more (figure I will be running 2 HDD, DVD burner, CD Drive, Soundcard, Radeon 9800pro off it at least)?

Motherboard: Dont need onboard sound/video.  RAID Support, S-ATA Support and onboard Lan are desireable.  I have always gone with ASUS for my MB.  Anyone out there familiar with Intel MB quirks know of any good Name/Model setups I might want to check out?

CPU: Looking at 3.0 Ghz here.  Not sure if 3.2 is really needed.

RAM:  1 gig (maybe 2 if I can find the sticks for a REALLY good price)

Harddrive: Looking at getting two identical drives (probably Western Dig or Maxtor) but not sure if I want IDE or S-ATA.  Probably go with two 160 or 200 Gig 8 meg cache drives.  Anyone know enough about the current state of S-ATA to tell me if the extra few bucks is worth it?

Lastly, I am budgeting myself around $800-1000 to put this thing together, and I am Canadian.  Do any of the Canucks on the boards know some good shops that do bundled barebones systems north o the border (preferrably in the Toronto area)?

[Murgos]

www.pricewatch.com
www.anandtech.com
www.tomshardware.com


Failing that?
www.google.com

Educate thyself my friend, your questions are not that hard to answer.

Sorry to be a dick but some people like yakking about thier 'rig' all day and some people just prefer to get what they need and be done with it.

Go to pricewatch and see whats in your price-range, go to the other two sites and check out reviews of what you picked.  Remove items that you don't care for and repeat until budget and capability requirements are met.  Enjoy.

[HaemishM]

For the power supply, 500w at least. Considering that Nvidia has lost its fucking mind and started putting 2 power supply connectors on their latest PCI Express boards, I'd say as much power as you can put in there, even if you aren't going to get a new Nvidia board. I'd also look at getting PCI Express if you can, since AGP is the new PCI.

[Trippy]

Case: nothing really special here, need a few more slots for fans.  not looking for side windows or the like.

Antec (www.antec.com) makes decent cases that are readily available.

Power supply: Probably come with the case, but I am looking at around 450w minimum.  Should I do 500 or more (figure I will be running 2 HDD, DVD burner, CD Drive, Soundcard, Radeon 9800pro off it at least)?

You don't need 500W as long as the power supply you get is of reasonably high quality (efficiency).

Motherboard: Dont need onboard sound/video.  RAID Support, S-ATA Support and onboard Lan are desireable.  I have always gone with ASUS for my MB.  Anyone out there familiar with Intel MB quirks know of any good Name/Model setups I might want to check out?

The benchmark P4 motherboard for the previous generation of chipsets (875P) is the ASUS P4C800-E Deluxe:

http://usa.asus.com/products/mb/socket478/p4c800-e_d/overview.HTM

There are cheaper boards that are almost as fast but that's the one most sites use as their 875P benchmark standard.

Intel has just come out with a new line of chipsets (915/925), socket (775 or "T"), memory (DDR2), expansion slot architecture(PCI Express) and processors that don't offer any performance advantage at the moment but will offer more options in the future as the older generation gets phased out.

CPU: Looking at 3.0 Ghz here.  Not sure if 3.2 is really needed.

It's an incremental price increase from 3.0 to 3.2 (unlike 3.2 to 3.4 which is a big jump). You'll need to check your budget to see if the 3.2 fits in.

Harddrive: Looking at getting two identical drives (probably Western Dig or Maxtor) but not sure if I want IDE or S-ATA.  Probably go with two 160 or 200 Gig 8 meg cache drives.  Anyone know enough about the current state of S-ATA to tell me if the extra few bucks is worth it?

Performance wise it doesn't make a difference. The only advantage right now is the potential for better airflow since the SATA cables are so much thinner.

[SurfD]

For Murgos:

....and before I go hitting the usual round of tech sites for review/benchmark browsing, I figured I would ask here for some opinions.

reading comprehention....hard...and all that.

 I have EVERY intention of visiting those sites (all of them are on my bookmarklist) as I have NEVER made an uninformed PC purchase since I started assembling my own.  My intention was to get info from the people on here who are allready educated on the matter and get a bit of a fast track to the important stuff that I can then focus on and look into further. (like what Haemish pointed out concerning AGP vs PCI-E)  And as far as www.pricewatch.com goes, being Canadian I find The Best Buy Finder to be a very good resource, and nicely Canadian specific.

Regarding Haemish:
 Is it possible to get a MB that does both AGP and PCI-Express, as my current vid card is AGP, and I am not looking to upgrade VidCards in the near future.  (probably not even worth it on this round of upgrading, because by time I am interested in actually getting a PCI-E vidcard, many changes will have been made and i will need to upgrade the MB again anyhow.)

Regarding Trippy:

Intel has just come out with a new line of chipsets (915/925), socket (775 or "T"), memory (DDR2), expansion slot architecture(PCI Express) and processors that don't offer any performance advantage at the moment but will offer more options in the future as the older generation gets phased out.

In otherwords, if I am looking into buying a new Mainboard sometime this week, it would be a better idea to go with the 875P board rather then the new one, given that the 9xx Chipset boards are brand new, and still open for much improvement.

[Trippy]

For the power supply, 500w at least. Considering that Nvidia has lost its fucking mind and started putting 2 power supply connectors on their latest PCI Express boards, I'd say as much power as you can put in there, even if you aren't going to get a new Nvidia board. I'd also look at getting PCI Express if you can, since AGP is the new PCI.

Unfortunately there are no PCI Express video cards of ATI 9800 Pro caliber or better that are readily available at the moment (though maybe in Canada there are some).

[HaemishM]

I believe that there ARE PCI-E Cards available. Though the real next-gen video boards (ATI x800 and Nvidia 6800) aren't on that page yet.

I don't think there are any MB's with AGP and PCI-E on the same board, but again, PCI-E is so spanking new, it may be another year before not having PCI-E could even mean shit.

[Trippy]

I believe that there ARE PCI-E Cards available. Though the real next-gen video boards (ATI x800 and Nvidia 6800) aren't on that page yet.

None of those PCI-E cards offer 9800 Pro performance or better. The X600 XT is the PCI-E version of the 9600 XT. The GeForce 5900 seriously lags behind the 9800 Pro in DirectX 9 games.

I don't think there are any MB's with AGP and PCI-E on the same board, but again, PCI-E is so spanking new, it may be another year before not having PCI-E could even mean shit.

At this Summer's Computex there were some boards that had both PCI-E x16 and AGP slots which was odd since the Intel 915/925 chipsets don't support AGP. It turns out a few clever board manufacturers managed to setup a PCI to AGP bridge meaning AGP boards running in those slots were limited to PCI bandwidth speeds.

Currently there is no performance advantage to using a PCI-E x16 card over its AGPx8 equivalent similar to the way there's virtually no performance difference between AGPx4 and AGPx8. Eventually there will be cards that will take advantage of the extra bandwidth.

[Trippy]

Is it possible to get a MB that does both AGP and PCI-Express, as my current vid card is AGP, and I am not looking to upgrade VidCards in the near future.  (probably not even worth it on this round of upgrading, because by time I am interested in actually getting a PCI-E vidcard, many changes will have been made and i will need to upgrade the MB again anyhow.)

Sorry you posted this while I was writing my previous reply so I didn't answer this there. While I did mention there were some boards on display at Computex that had both AGP and PCI-Ex16 slots I haven't heard of any of these boards in actual production yet -- they may have just been prototypes or proof-of-concept displays. There's also the problem of slower performance since the AGP cards were running off the PCI bus (effectively AGPx1 instead of AGPx4 or x8).

Regarding Trippy:

Intel has just come out with a new line of chipsets (915/925), socket (775 or "T"), memory (DDR2), expansion slot architecture(PCI Express) and processors that don't offer any performance advantage at the moment but will offer more options in the future as the older generation gets phased out.

In otherwords, if I am looking into buying a new Mainboard sometime this week, it would be a better idea to go with the 875P board rather then the new one, given that the 9xx Chipset boards are brand new, and still open for much improvement.

A lot depends on if you are the type who likes to upgrade individual components including the CPU over time or if you just start over from scratch every time you want a more powerful computer. If you are the upgrading type, the newer platform will probably give you more upgrading options in the future but you are correct in that the first generation of MBs based on a new chipset aren't optimized to the fullest.

[Murgos]

*Looks at thread*

Like I said some people like to sit around and yakk about thier rig.  You could already have everything you need ordered and shipped fedex overnight to arrive tomorrow morning.

Or you can play "450 watts?"
"500 watts?"
"450 watts?"
"500 watts?"
"PCI Express?"
"AGP?"
"PCI Express?"
"Both?"
"3GHz?"
"3.2GHz?"
for the next three days.

You know what the extreme result of these deliberations will be?  A 1.2% increase in performance in Doom 3 or you might save 40 bucks.  Congratulations.

[schild]

I currently run a 2.8ghz p4 with a gig of DDR333. I have a creative soundblaster live audigy platinum and a GeforceFX5200. After fixing the texture memory crap, Doom 3 ran fine. This whole computer cost me about $500 8 months ago. Would have cost $300 if I'd not bought a ShuttleX case (wonderful case btw). BIY computer threads are always a hoot to me because all of this information is 2 words and a click away in google. Or you can just go buy this - Buy 1 step lower than whatever the best is on the market. Normally the difference is hundreds of dollars (go look up the price on a 1.8ghz Penitum-M and a 1.7) and you'll get performace that's about 5% worse.

[Sable Blaze]

First thing is to buy good components. Going cheap is a false economy. Get a GOOD power supply. PC Power and Cooling, or Antec.

I don't personally care for the present Intel chips, so my advice is to go AMD. The Athlon64 is much easier to work with and substantially cheaper. Intel's present habit of releasing a chipset of the week is a real turnoff. AMD has it's own issues in this regard, but there seems to be less confusion on where they're wanting to go.

It's a bad time for vid cards. The present heavy hitters aren't even available in numbers. They aren't even on the radar screen in PCI Express flavors. Only the mid-range cards are out there. The nVidia SLI cards don't seem to be up and running yet. For this reason alone, I'd hold off on a new system--or go very cheap.

Right now you can build 3200XP Bartons for chump change. Athlon64s still don't have a 64bit OS, so really you're not gaining all that much on a Barton. The FX chips have some advantages, but cost isn't one of them. nForce2 mobos are very cheap. Vid cards are still a problem, but at least the base 6800s are out there.

I'd invest in a case you like, an extrememly good power supply, the best drives you can buy that suit you...then go cheap on the mobo and CPU. Get a gig of the best memory for your CPU, then you'll have to make the vid card call yourself. If I had to buy right now, I guess I'd go with the base 6800, but I wouldn't be too happy about it.

At least this way you'd be prepared for the next round of upgrades. Chances are you'd only be replacing your mobo and CPU, maybe the vid card.

[Shockeye]

Right now you can build 3200XP Bartons for chump change. Athlon64s still don't have a 64bit OS, so really you're not gaining all that much on a Barton.

Ok, you are way off on that. You are gaining A LOT over a Barton with an A64. Repeat after me: On Die Memory Controller. Look up some benchmarks. A64 even without a 64 bit OS blows other processors away. Right now you cannot go wrong with an A64 3000 or 3200.

[Sable Blaze]

I'd still say go cheap. The nastiest games to run right now are more vid card dependent. Whether you're running an Athlon64 or a Barton won't have THAT big of an influence.

I'd hold off on the 64 and go Barton. Put the extra cash in something else.

[geldonyetich]

The nastiest games to run right now are more vid card dependent.

Myth.  CPU and motherboard speed is vital for each and every game in existance.   Video cards take a lot of pressure off the CPU's rendering of 3D, but the CPU still has to set up the 3D that needs rendering.   It's reached the point where some benchmarks have actually stopped testing the video card.

I put CPU and Video card at equal importance.  If one or the other is slow, you'll suffer in some way or another.   Personally I upgrade one, then the other, whenever a genuine breakthrough is made in the appropriate field.

[Trippy]

I'd still say go cheap. The nastiest games to run right now are more vid card dependent. Whether you're running an Athlon64 or a Barton won't have THAT big of an influence.

I'd hold off on the 64 and go Barton. Put the extra cash in something else.

The problem with your advice is that the Barton XP 3200+ is not any cheaper than the "comparable" A64s. Newegg has the OEM Barton 3200+ at $183 (US). The OEM A64 3000+ is priced at $167 and the 3200+ at $208. Take a look at this DOOM 3 benchmark to see how the A64s are compare to the XPs in that game:

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2149&p=7

And here's some more benchmarks comparing the A64 3000+ to the XP 3200+ (among other CPUs):

http://techreport.com/reviews/2004q1/athlon64-3000/index.x?pg=1

If you were advising something like buying the XP 2500+ and overclocking that to 3200+ then I would agree that would save you some money over the low end A64s but you would still be saddling yourself with a dying platform.

[schild]

I hate to pick sides based on an extremely small sample but the only Athlon I ever owned died after 2 years. My pentium (1) 75mhz machine still runs today. It's good for Nesticle and that's about it. But it still runs. I'll probably never buy an AMD chip again.

[SurfD]

Heheh, as I said initially, I am an Intel fan, so i will likely stick with a current intel chip.  I do not need a new vid card.  So I will probably take the advice of getting good Power, Ram and HDs and try to save on the MB/Processor combo.

Going to skip PCI-E untill possibly my next upgrade cycle (at least 2 years from now).

Any final opinions on IDE vs S-ATA?  Should I at least look at getting a S-ATA compatable MB, or should I leave that for the next upgrade Cycle also?

(Going to be hitting the Review sites sometime tomorrow, after i get off work, right now I am too tired to make heads or tails out of what most of them are saying)

[NiX]

www.bbf.ca - That's helped me find alot of cheap prices when looking into computer parts. As always the Canada Computer line of stores is always a good way to save money. Reliable parts too.

I'll tell you now that you won't find 2 gigs for a good price. It's hard enough to find a 1 gig stick. Let alone for a good price.

[SurfD]

God Damn, I hate living in Canada.  Everything seems so fucking expensive :(

Code:

Case and Power Supply - 500w                         75
Motherboard - P4C800-E Deluxe                      240
RAM - 2x512 meg PC3200 200MHZ DDR400     240
Harddrives 2x 200GB 7200RPM 8mg	(S-ATA)    400
CPU - 3.0 Ghz Pentium 4 socket 478                300

Thats nearly $1300 for everything without tax, just checking prices from www.bbf.ca and piecemeal. (almost 1k US)

Do any of those prices look seriously out of whack to any of you? (I am thinking it is the two harddrives that is killing my price count, but I could probably live with that)

And yes, I do know that there is a good chance I could get some of the price knocked down by buying it all from the same place.

Going to be about time to start hitting the local shops for bundled price quotes.

So, do any of the Canucks here know any good online shops based out of Canada I could check?  Most of the ones that get referenced here are US based (like Mwave that El Gallo shopped from).

[Shockeye]

It's good for Nesticle and that's about it.

Is that when you put chocolate all over your balls for a pet to lick it off?

Oh wait... sorry... my bad.

[Shockeye]

Any final opinions on IDE vs S-ATA?  Should I at least look at getting a S-ATA compatable MB, or should I leave that for the next upgrade Cycle also?

Performance-wise you won't see any difference between IDE and SATA right now. The only current plus to SATA is simplier cabling.

[MrHat]

Any final opinions on IDE vs S-ATA?  Should I at least look at getting a S-ATA compatable MB, or should I leave that for the next upgrade Cycle also?

Performance-wise you won't see any difference between IDE and SATA right now. The only current plus to SATA is simplier cabling.

I think the SATA drives are louder too aren't they?

[eldaec]

And on some motherboards, SATA means having to piss about with drivers.

I think the SATA drives are louder too aren't they?

No.

[SurfD]

Well, my main reason for going S-ATA is two fold.  One, it frees up existing IDE slots for other things  (allowing me to stick two S-ATA drives, two CD/DVD type drives, and my older IDE HD's all in the same system) and two, having the S-ATA drives means they are going to be good in future systems where the IDE may not.