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Author Topic: The "New" New Avengers  (Read 32311 times)
Velorath
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Reply #70 on: April 12, 2007, 02:23:06 PM

That art was pretty painful.  I like panels to actually have background every now and then.  Between that and Bendis' storytelling I can't figure out what's going on through a lot of this issue.  It's all just garbled crap.
Velorath
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Reply #71 on: May 09, 2007, 09:33:02 PM

Ronin = Hawkeye  rolleyes
HaemishM
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Reply #72 on: May 10, 2007, 12:51:39 PM

Yeah, I made a loud exclamation when I got to that page. Fucking save us from hack writing. The art has gotten about 300 times worse than when Yu started on the book. It's just dreadful now.

Velorath
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Reply #73 on: June 14, 2007, 01:39:46 PM

So... Elektra was a Skrull.  What was the whole point of this arc again?  We have how many issues of the New Avengers fighting ninja, and this is the payoff?  Oh, and something is up with Cage's child and presumably Jessica Jones (I can only guess that they are possibly Skrulls as well given the look of the kids eyes).


Edit:  It seems that this whole Skrull thing is the lead up to Marvel's big event next year.  interview with Bendis on Newsarama here.  I was going to quote some stuff from the interview here but there's just too much crap.  Basically:

a) The "who can you trust" shapeshifting/human looking alien invasion type thing has been done at this point.  Most recently in BSG (which amazingly Bendis seems to reference once in the interview without the slightest hint of realization that he's retreading one of the main plot points of one of the most popular shows on TV right now).

b)  Marvel has their typical  "we can have our cake and eat it too" attitude.  "No more Mutants" but just about all the X-men related characters still have their powers or have gotten them back.  The Superhero registration act is a perfectly reasonable piece of legislation that the pro-reg side aren't villains for pushing, or the SHRA allows for backdoor drafts and the like.  There are no good guys and bad guys in Civil War but we'll have the pro-reg side deploy untested god clones in the field and employ villains (not even petty criminals but murderers like Bullseye) as a superhero team hunting down heroes.  In this case, it's Marvel saying that even though major characters may have been skrulls during events like House of M or Civil War, and thus were acting completely out of character, it in no way invalidates those stories.

c)  There's no way that half the shit their going to try to pass off as "it was a skrull" was planned at the time whatever stories are being changed were written.  Especially with Bendis' hints that this Skrull invasion goes back as far as the Kree-Skrull War.  I realize I'm judging this before reading it, but it shows all the signs of being a bullshit license for Bendis and Marvel to retcon whatever stories they don't like in order to make the Marvel Universe further fit their vision.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 02:12:22 PM by Velorath »
HaemishM
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Reply #74 on: June 14, 2007, 02:41:53 PM

OMFG, I want to brain Bendis and Quesada right now.

Quote
NRAMA: Wait – so since shortly after the ending of the Kree-Skrull War…you’re saying…

BB: Yup – that’s what I’m saying.

NRAMA: Bastard. So possibly, for what, thirty+ years, one or some of those characters could have been Skrulls?

Yep, let's retcon the ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSE. The Spider-Man clone saga? They weren't clones, they were SKRULLS! Dark Phoenix? SKRULL! Onslaught? SKRULLY SKRULL SKRULL SKRULL!!!!

FOAD, you one-note hack. I don't care how far back this was planned, it's shit. It's lazy ass writing. Now you're going to tell me Reed Richards is a fucking Skrull? Obviously Tony Stark isn't because that would make the most sense.

Marvel should just change their logo to a toilet.

Velorath
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Reply #75 on: June 14, 2007, 03:11:28 PM

OMFG, I want to brain Bendis and Quesada right now.

Quote
NRAMA: Wait – so since shortly after the ending of the Kree-Skrull War…you’re saying…

BB: Yup – that’s what I’m saying.

NRAMA: Bastard. So possibly, for what, thirty+ years, one or some of those characters could have been Skrulls?

Yep, let's retcon the ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSE. The Spider-Man clone saga? They weren't clones, they were SKRULLS! Dark Phoenix? SKRULL! Onslaught? SKRULLY SKRULL SKRULL SKRULL!!!!

FOAD, you one-note hack. I don't care how far back this was planned, it's shit. It's lazy ass writing. Now you're going to tell me Reed Richards is a fucking Skrull? Obviously Tony Stark isn't because that would make the most sense.

Marvel should just change their logo to a toilet.

Hey, come on, it's aliens disguised as humans secretly infiltrating Earth.  That concept was gold the first time Marvel did it:

HaemishM
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Reply #76 on: June 15, 2007, 07:39:15 AM

I loved ROM. But it wasn't THAT good.

Simond
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Reply #77 on: June 15, 2007, 08:33:44 AM

And people thought that Warren Ellis was joking when he said that Nextwave was the only comic in the real Marvel community, and blamed Civil War on Anal Skrulls.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Velorath
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Reply #78 on: June 18, 2007, 08:57:49 PM

Speaking of big Marvel crossovers, Marvel revealed some details on their October X-men crossover "X-Men: Messiah Complex" at Heroes Con a few days ago.  I have to say I'm saddened and disappointed by the fact that not only is Cyclops apparently not being killed off in Astonishing X-men (due to wrap up before the crossover starts), but he'll supposedly be playing a fairly large role in this crossover.  rolleyes
HaemishM
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Reply #79 on: June 19, 2007, 10:08:37 AM

Blearg another "UNIVERSE-CHANGING NOTHING WILL EVER BE THE SAME!!!" crossover. And Mr. Sinister is on the cover. Fuck, I hate that character as much as I hate Apocalypse. As good as Brubaker and Carey's runs have been on the X-Men books, the whole team has been a confused mess since Grant Morrison left.

But hey, if they give Cyclops some fucking sack back, I'll be happy.

Velorath
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Reply #80 on: June 23, 2007, 01:38:40 AM

I think Sinister works when the bother to actually give him an agenda rather than have him doing mysterious shit for a half-revealed plot and then fade away (well before Origin, when Wolverine's popularity still had Marvel convinced that mysterious automatically = cool).  I liked Sinister in Age of Apocalypse, and Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, when he was used as an actual 3-Dimensional character.
Velorath
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Reply #81 on: October 15, 2007, 02:09:15 PM

Yu's art still grates on me but he seems to have marginally cleaned it up a bit for New Avengers #35, a series which I haven't talked about directly in recent months because the past few issues have been lead-ins to Secret Invasion.  This issue is a little bit different though as it focuses on the Lex Luthor putting together the Secret Society.  Wait... wrong company, but this does feel a bit similar to all the DC villains banding together in the leadup to IC.  I realize that even then, the idea of a massive supervillain team-up wasn't an entirely original one, but this one doesn't work on several other levels as well.

The Hood really is the wrong character for this.  In the few appearences he's had before this, nothing about his character would have suggested he was capable of something like this.  In fact, he's had a fairly sympathetic side to him prior to this, and was never written as a truly evil character.  I'm guessing at least some of this will be explained as we get to know more about his second-in-command, whom I have the suspicion is really the brains behind the whole operation.

Second major problem is the Hood's plan to track down and kill the families of any hero who gets in the way of his crew.  I had the same question as Jigsaw when he asked the Hood how he'd do that, and I don't think a particularly satisfactory answer was given.  The truth is, the reason villains don't do that kind of thing more often, is because killing heroes' families off on a regular basis doesn't make for good reading. 

I'm really kind of sick of Marvel and Bendis in particular trying to pick at genre conventions like this, because it's jarring in the context of a comic book universe that's adheared to these conventions for the better part of six decades.  They outed Peter Parker as Spider-man, in part because Bendis thinks that secret identities are silly.  They had a New Warriors battle result in the destruction of a school, so they could put forth the arguement that untrained vigilante superheroes are a serious threat in the MU despite the several thousand prior stories that took place in the MU, where no innocents were hurt.  They decided that Hulk was a killer (and now changed their mind back), because it was implausable with all the destruction he caused that nobody was killed.  Yes, it's silly that the Hulk can rampage through a town without killing someone, that people tolerated super powered vigilanties for so long, that superheroes can maintain secret identities, and the supervillains have to be somewhat ineffective, because 99.9999% of the time, the heroes are expected to win, but those are the established rules of the MU.  I assume the next step of injecting logic into a fictional world will be to give Spider-man and the Hulk cancer due to their exposure to radiation.

HaemishM
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Reply #82 on: October 15, 2007, 02:14:11 PM

Yu's art still bugs the shit out of me. The part about #35 that bugged me the most, though, was the tone. It's quite obvious that Bendis' best writing is when he does hard-boiled crime stories. Jinx, AKA: Goldfish, Torso, all hard-boiled crime stories that were absolutely top-notch. Even the Daredevil stuff fit, because the tone of the character fit that tone of story.

But the fucking Avengers? Even the scrub Avengers? They just don't fit the tone, especially when there are Skrulls abounding, and extraterrestrial conspiracies, etc. And the whole beating of Tigra while threatening her mother was just unnecessarily brutal and wholly out of place. He's turned the Avengers into Pulp Fiction and he isn't even giving us good stories in the bargain.

Velorath
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Reply #83 on: October 15, 2007, 06:18:31 PM

True enough, I'm not sure why this story needed to be told in New Avengers.  The cover art of Wolverine with a symbiote covering half his body, and the recap page which focuses more on the Skull and Symbiote plotlines would seem to signal a completely different story than the one readers end up getting.  If the symbiote plotline felt like an detour taking us away from the Skrull plotline in order to kill time until the big crossover, taking this detour away from the symbiote plotline feels like a fascinatingly pointless exercise in treading water.

I guess it shouldn't come as much of a surprise.  Bendis has jumped from storyline to storyline since launching NA, like an A.D.D. kid on a diet of pixie stix and energy drinks, seemingly unable to resolve even the smallest of plot threads before some other shiny object gets his attention.  I'm sure in his mind he's weaving multi-layered tapestries, but the reality of it is that three years later, nobody cares about the conspiricy within S.H.I.E.L.D. or who the shadowy figure is that hired Electro way back in the first issue, and it doesn't help matters when Earth's Mightiest Heroes can't even soundly defeat a group of Ninja.  Even the bungling Skrulls of stories past could give Bendis' Avengers a run for their money so I'm unsure why he felt the need to reinvent them as serious threats.  Fuck, if the Skrulls were to team up with Stiltman, the Avengers will have to call in the Sentry for backup.
HaemishM
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Reply #84 on: October 16, 2007, 09:01:17 AM

That unfortunately counts for both teams of Avengers. I mean, they still haven't even figured out what happened to Iron Man in Might Avengers, and that storyline has gone NOWHERE. At least Mighty has Frank Cho doing some gorgeous artwork, but New Avengers is just shitty art work and a seriously fragmented story that has led into multiple culdesacs. Shit, the S.H.I.E.L.D. storyline from the original run was so small anyway that no one has even mentioned it in other books. It's not even in Iron Man and he's the goddamn director of the agency.

stu
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Reply #85 on: October 16, 2007, 10:21:03 AM

Whoa. When did Frank Cho start doing superheroes? I think I remember hearing about him on Shanna, the She-Devil, but now Avengers? Maybe I should stop reading books without pictures and get back to comics.

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HaemishM
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Reply #86 on: October 16, 2007, 11:09:26 AM

Cho's done all 4 issues of the Mighty Avengers series. The writing is... well, it's better than New New Avengers, but it's not that great. Too many silly thought balloons and too much dialogue that sounds like the Gilmore Girls.

Velorath
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Reply #87 on: October 31, 2007, 12:32:07 AM

By the way, Cho is off the book after issue #6.  He stepped aside after realizing that it was too difficult to keep to a monthly schedule.
HaemishM
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Reply #88 on: October 31, 2007, 12:33:28 PM

That pretty much killls any reason to read the book other than to make fun of it.

HaemishM
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Reply #89 on: November 13, 2007, 12:23:01 PM

Le Sigh. New Avengers Illuminati #5. I almost had a moment of "this is kind of cool" when the Skrulls start attacking the Illuminati with Super-Skrulls with both X-Men and Thor-y power sets. There was almost a moment of awesome. Then Iron Man does... WTF does he do? Does he actually NUKE a site in the US? Or does he just magically draw power from nuclear plants around the country? Not only was that not explained well, that one act should pretty much end his reign as Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. and brand him a goddamn terrorist, no matter how much registration stuff he does. That should scare the shit out of the government.

Of course, it'll just be ignored.

Oh and good job on completely spoiling the fact that we now know WW Hulk will not end with any of these characters dying. Not that anyone should have expected that, but seriously. Keep us surprised or don't bother with the fucking story.

HaemishM
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Reply #90 on: November 16, 2007, 08:54:19 AM

Goddamnit. New Avengers #36 is just balls of stupid. First, the whole city turns into Venom thing gets resolved by IRON MAN off stage with more of his "I'm techno-magic bitches!" Seriously, it's like whatever cul-de-sac Bendis gets himself written into, he just turns it off by having Iron Man or Sentry or Doctor Strange fix it with a snap of their fingers. Then, he spends more time focusing on the OTHER Avengers team than he does the team that's actually the stars of the book. And the Venom thing was some chemical bomb sent by Doctor Doom? WHAT? He had mini-Venoms in a can or some shit? Then this team of Avengers goes to apprehend a group of super-powered bank robbers, who it turns out is the Wrecking Crew. And they don't feel safe taking on the Wrecking Crew because they are too strong?

THE WRECKING CREW? Wait, didn't Spider-Woman pretty much single-handedly take down the Wrecker? And doesn't this team of Avengers have the SORCERER SUPREME OF THE GODDAMN PLANET? Doctor Strange took on the WWH version of the Hulk and held his own, and can supposedly thwart Iron Man's abilities to find this Avengers team, but he can't take down the Wrecking Crew? So what do they do? According to the last panel, call in the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, THOR for fuck's sake, oh and the Mighty Avengers, who are supposed to be apprehending non-registered heroes.

I mean, why even go to the fucking trouble of setting the rules for regisration and non-registration in the Marvel Universe if your writers are just going to fucking ignore them? We aren't just in the territory of sloppy continuity so much as we have gone off the fucking map into just making shit up as we go along. Why establish a status quo if your writers contravene it at every turn? What's worse is that it's done for the most idiotic of reasons. The WRECKING CREW? Come on.

Also, Yu's artwork is just in shitsville. His stuff just gets uglier and uglier.

Mazakiel
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Reply #91 on: November 16, 2007, 10:31:14 AM

Marvel comics gets sadder and sadder by the day. 
stu
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Reply #92 on: November 16, 2007, 11:07:58 AM

Until their stock crashes again, it's going to stay that way.

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Velorath
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Reply #93 on: November 16, 2007, 11:55:41 AM

So what do they do? According to the last panel, call in the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, THOR for fuck's sake, oh and the Mighty Avengers, who are supposed to be apprehending non-registered heroes.

They also called in the Punisher (which is odd given the events in Civil War), Howard the Duck, Silver Surfer (not sure what he's doing on Earth), and the Vision (with his old look rather than his Young Avengers look).

Also, after an entire issue (and several interviews with Bendis) trying to establish the Hood as some sort of badass, his hideout is easily tracked down by Wolverine catching a scent.  And none of the heroes showed any concern over the fact that Dethlok, a hero many of them have fought beside, has been blown in half.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 12:01:49 PM by Velorath »
Llava
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Reply #94 on: November 28, 2007, 01:50:43 AM

So what do they do? According to the last panel, call in the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, THOR for fuck's sake, oh and the Mighty Avengers, who are supposed to be apprehending non-registered heroes.

They also called in the Punisher (which is odd given the events in Civil War), Howard the Duck, Silver Surfer (not sure what he's doing on Earth), and the Vision (with his old look rather than his Young Avengers look).

Yeah, I think they made it pretty obvious to anyone paying attention that the people shown in that panel are not necessarily the people actually present.  It's a show to scare the badguys.  The next issue will cover it.

I'm really goddamn confused about the Silver Surfer right now.  They just came out with a limited series called "Requiem" which got no press and contained the death of the Silver Surfer.  His metallic shell was flawed and it deteriorated, and nobody (Reed Richards, Iron Man, Prof. X, Galactus, etc) could figure out a way to fix it.  He did a few things befitting the Silver Surfer, flew home (to his native planet, I mean), and died.  It was pretty well done (though one of the subplots was pretty hamfisted).

Now there's another Silver Surfer limited series coming out, and it's making no mention of him having died not more than a month ago.  Picked up the first issue, it really didn't seem good, won't be getting the rest.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Velorath
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Reply #95 on: November 28, 2007, 02:04:59 AM

Silver Surfer continuity is a bit of a mess right now.  In addition to the minis mentioned, he also appeared in the Annihilation crossover, or at least the first part of it (haven't read Conquest yet).  At the end, he returned to being the herald of Galactus, with a somewhat darker attitude than usual.
Llava
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Reply #96 on: December 04, 2007, 12:32:48 AM

He hasn't shown up in Conquest as of yet.  Been enjoying that more than I thought I would.  The lead-ins were mediocre, but I just happened to be in the mood for that kind of story so kept following them.  The first issue of Conquest, though, pleasantly surprised me.

Of course, I, like most people reading comics these days, don't hold the belief that Marvel has done a horrible job with everything and that DC is far superior, so mileage may vary depending on the individual.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Velorath
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Reply #97 on: December 04, 2007, 12:55:18 AM

He hasn't shown up in Conquest as of yet.  Been enjoying that more than I thought I would.  The lead-ins were mediocre, but I just happened to be in the mood for that kind of story so kept following them.  The first issue of Conquest, though, pleasantly surprised me.

Of course, I, like most people reading comics these days, don't hold the belief that Marvel has done a horrible job with everything and that DC is far superior, so mileage may vary depending on the individual.

I read the first issues of each of the minis leading up to Conquest.  At some point I'll get around to reading the rest.  After reading Annihilation though, I didn't really see the need for them to go back to the 4 miniseries lead up, and would have preferred it if Conquest was done as a one book story (even if it had to be 12 issues or so long).

In regards to the sales charts, DC has gained a lot of ground.  The fact that JSA is the number 5 best selling title is probably something that I wouldn't have believed if you told me 10 years ago it would happen.  Marvel has pushed New Avengers pretty heavily (and Avengers Disassembled before that) for quite a while now.  It figured prominently into House of M and Civil War, and for months and months in advance now has been hyped as the lead in to Secret Invasion.  Spider-man is likewise doing big numbers, since One More Day is one of Quesada's pet projects, and has mentioned it every chance he's gotten.

I love a lot of Marvel stuff, but sales charts only prove that there is still a sizable audience out there who will pick up Marvel "Event" books.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 04:25:30 PM by Velorath »
Llava
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Reply #98 on: December 04, 2007, 08:25:40 AM

I'm not sure you even need to read the lead-ins.  Like I said, they were mediocre.  Other than the character of Wraith, everything they went over was pretty minor.  Wraith himself may or may not end up being an important character, but either way his series wasn't very good.  I'd Wikipedia it to see who he is and go from there.

Oh, and Moondragon's a dragon now.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Khaldun
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Reply #99 on: December 22, 2007, 07:01:27 PM

The art was especially bad in the most recent issue, but combined with the writing. Well, look, I can read and understand and work with some of the most painfully badly written and complicated postmodern theory you might name, but the last issue of New Avengers just left me kind of baffled in parts. Or maybe I just felt unmotivated to try and figure it out. But honestly, there were whole pages where I was just thinking, "I have no fucking idea what's going on here, who is fighting whom. That guy just did something to that guy, somebody just say 'oof' and someone else said 'ergh', but...I guess since it's Bendis, somebody just got his testicles ripped off or mangled, but that's about all I'm sure of."
HaemishM
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Reply #100 on: February 08, 2008, 09:59:50 AM

NECRODAMUS!

So I read the New Avengers Annual #2, with the Hood attacking the New New Avengers in Dr. Strange's mansion.





SPOILER ALERT:

Avengers win, Dr. Strange leaves the dimension or some shit and Ms. Marvel AGAIN lets the rogue Avengers go free. Once again, why the fuck even have a Civil War and registration shit that "CHANGES EVERYTHING!!@!1!!" and then not have it change really a goddamn thing? Why is Ms. Marvel even on the registration side if she's just going to ignore it everytime her friends get caught? And who gets to be Sorcerer Supreme now that Strange is gone? Tigra gets used again as a plot device.

Khaldun
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Reply #101 on: February 08, 2008, 05:20:29 PM

On Annihilation: Conquest, I thought the Star-Lord lead-in mini was actually fucking great. Plus I'm loving Nova in general, because for whatever fetishistic reason, Nova has always been a favorite character. I think it was that I bought issue #1 of his original title when I was a kid and didn't know that it was an unholy plagiaristic retread of Spider-Man + Green Lantern. But the current Nova book is actually *good*, which you really can't say about most of his various titles over the years. The Wraith mini was totally bleh, the character leaves me cold. Lesbian space dragons in the Quasar one, mildly interesting, but not much of a story. The main Conquest series has been really quite nice, though not quite so interesting as the first Annihilation mini.

New Avengers Annual? Waste of space. At best, just further evidence that Strange is a Skrull now. Which cancels out the likeable humanity and complexity of the Dr. Strange who appeared in World War Hulk, stupidly. These guys cannot figure out where they're going.
Llava
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Reply #102 on: February 09, 2008, 07:55:06 PM

I actually wasn't reading Star Lord.

Nova has been good, with the exception of the talking dog with the accent.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Velorath
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Reply #103 on: February 13, 2008, 12:52:58 AM

Not related to the topic in any way, shape, or form, but I figured Haemish would appreciate these (he needs to go back to his old Milk & Cheese avatar), and I have no problem briefly interrupting our New Avengers hate.

HaemishM
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Reply #104 on: February 13, 2008, 07:11:43 AM

I would so buy those if I wasn't broke.

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