D&D Online First Look

[HRose]

Instancing is also NOT the death of community.

In fact it's just the death of virtual worlds.

[schild]

Instancing is also NOT the death of community.

In fact it's just the death of virtual worlds.

Oh, stfu. Seriously. The people who bitch about instancing would be more unhappy with camping. The former done well essentially removes the latter - if you'd rather have camping, you are just a terribly stupid person.

[HRose]

A flaw coming out to excuse another flaw isn't my idea of "working good".

[schild]

MOTHERFUCK. I had like a one page response written out here and I hit escape. GODDAMNIT. Alright, I think I can remember the end.

Hrose, until you make a better game mechanic than instancing, shut the hell up.

[Merusk]

Instancing is also NOT the death of community.

In fact it's just the death of virtual worlds.

I've never been a fan of the 'virtual world' concept.  I have a real job, a real life, and real issues to deal with.  I don't need to pay for vitual problems, jobs and angst on top of it to convince myself I'm doing something meaningful with my life.

To date, virtual worlds are bigger time sinks than any other games.  Therefore, IMO, they're worthless.

And to preempt the "but EQ" artument.   Yes, I include EQ in that, because early on it tried to be a world.  When it got over that nonsense and decided to provide gameplay over world mechanics it got better.

[HRose]

http://www.cesspit.net/mt/ravings/archives/2004-07/wow_isnt_a_mmorpg.html

That's an old thing I wrote about WoW. The point is that PvE is an opposite concept to a MMO. As simple as that. If you want to offer PvE, considering it the same as it was presented till now, the best choice is to instance it.

Instancing is perfect if you want to offer a decent cooperative experience. But it has nothing to do with a virtual world. It's simply an RPG with cooperative and persistent elements.

So I agree that *this* form of PvE is *always* better if instanced. There's no choice. But MMOGs are able to offer a lot more due to their nature. Something that isn't being used in a game like CoH.

[HRose]

I've never been a fan of the 'virtual world' concept.  I have a real job, a real life, and real issues to deal with.  I don't need to pay for vitual problems, jobs and angst on top of it to convince myself I'm doing something meaningful with my life.

To date, virtual worlds are bigger time sinks than any other games.  Therefore, IMO, they're worthless.

Those issues are surely important. But not specific to a virtual world.

[AOFanboi]

In fact it's just the death of virtual worlds.

And respawning, including the associated camping, isn't? Automated resurrection? Hello?

"Virtual worlds" would be permadeath, no-respawning and you would need to eat and drink to stay alive.

Only one game fits that bill: Nethack.

[Trippy]

In fact it's just the death of virtual worlds.

And respawning, including the associated camping, isn't? Automated resurrection? Hello?

"Virtual worlds" would be permadeath, no-respawning and you would need to eat and drink to stay alive.

Only one game fits that bill: Nethack.

What in the heck do permadeath and eating have to do with virtual worlds? That's like saying if the game doesn't make you go to the bathroom or sleep (in game, not real life) you aren't in a virtual world either, thereby disqualifying Nethack. And Nethack is only one in a long line of Rogue-like games so it's hardly the only game that fits your odd definition.

Edit: Fixed some typos

[Trippy]

http://www.cesspit.net/mt/ravings/archives/2004-07/wow_isnt_a_mmorpg.html

That's an old thing I wrote about WoW. The point is that PvE is an opposite concept to a MMO. As simple as that. If you want to offer PvE, considering it the same as it was presented till now, the best choice is to instance it.

Instancing is perfect if you want to offer a decent cooperative experience. But it has nothing to do with a virtual world. It's simply an RPG with cooperative and persistent elements.

So I agree that *this* form of PvE is *always* better if instanced. There's no choice. But MMOGs are able to offer a lot more due to their nature. Something that isn't being used in a game like CoH.

You seem to be equating "virtual world" with "massively multiplayer". I don't see that to be the case. In your article you also seem to be equating MM with PvP which I don't agree with either.

I do agree with you that instancing can reduce some of the MM aspects of gamplay but I agree with the others who are saying instancing improves the gameplay experience for the vast majority of players.

And "instancing" has been around for as long as multi player games (computer or otherwise) have been in existence and yet somehow games still seem to be around. Even in the early days of MMORPGs you've had instancing -- what do you think UO "shards" or EQ "servers" are? If instancing is the death of virtual worlds then UO or EQ should not have survived this long and yet they have.

[Soukyan]

In fact it's just the death of virtual worlds.

And respawning, including the associated camping, isn't? Automated resurrection? Hello?

"Virtual worlds" would be permadeath, no-respawning and you would need to eat and drink to stay alive.

Only one game fits that bill: Nethack.

What in the heck do permadeath and eating have to do with virtual worlds? That's like saying if the game doesn't make you go to the bathroom or sleep (in game, not real life) you aren't in a virtual world either, thereby disqualifying Nethack. And Nethack is only one in a long line of Rogue-like games so it's hardly the only game that fits your odd definition.

Edit: Fixed some typos

The Sims has all the trappings of a virtual world. <sarcasm>How scintillating!</sarcasm>

[El Gallo]

I don't think that all instancing is bad really.  Just all the instancing I have seen.  I have found the instancing in WoW and EQ to be anti-casual.  You can't just pop in and out like you do at an old-style camp.  You need to set aside a few hours and focus 100% on the game without interruption for that stretch.  Baby wakes up?  Important phone call?  Cat barfs?  Oops, sorry, that first two hours is down the toilet not only for you, but most likely for everyone in your group.  That's a quick ticket to popularityville, I tell you what.  

There is also a tendency in EQ and COH to use instancing as an excuse to throw together shitty, soulless, modular crap in some random way and call it a dungeon.  Fortunately, WoW has bucked this trend, and EQ is starting to (we got shitty and soulless but non-modular instances in GoD!).

My view is that instancing should take big, handcrafted dungeons and make copies of them to prevent overcrowding.  Think Sebilis or Chardok, or whatever well-designed dungeon gets your rocks off.  Each instance (and some non-instanced area outside the instance) should share the same public channels, and there should be some easy way to get from the common area to groups in the instances.  You wanna camp, go camp. You wanna crawl, go crawl.  Usually, I prefer camping, because sometimes I need to answer the phone or take a crap, but I am funny like that.  MMOGs are not a replacement for Counterstrike for me, they are more a replacement for going fishing.  Not everyone is like that (I seem to remember Soukan and I talking about this in one of the many similar threads in the past, he views MMOGS as a substitute for more action-oriented video games).  But I like a good crawl now and again too, usually on a weekend when I can set aside the time.  I don't have children, when I do my crawling days will probably be over, since I cannot function reliably on less than 8 hours of sleep.  People who constantly rave about upcoming games where PvE raiding has small numbers "so everyone really matters" should realize that is pretty anti-casual for the same reasons, but that is another thread.

What you cannot overlook, though, is that instancing drastically increases the rate of content consumption.  If you have pervasive instancing, you have to put up with running out of content quickly, really rushed and buggy expansions, or paying a hell of a lot more than you pay now.

So, yeah.  I was wrong when I said instancing necessarily destroys community.  I will stick to my guns on adhering to the old Law of Online Worlds that says you need to build downtime into your primary activity to have community though.  At least until vice-to-text or voice chat actually works.

[HaemishM]

Instancing is also NOT the death of community.

In fact it's just the death of virtual worlds.

Good fucking riddance, and dance on the goddamn corpse while we're at it.

A world implies that I must LIVE in it to really get anything out of it. I have a life, thank you very much, I don't need to recreate it in pixel form.

[Merusk]

Much better argument, El Gallo. Now you've got some stuff I can agree with, and some bits to pick at.  

I don't think that all instancing is bad really.  Just all the instancing I have seen.  I have found the instancing in WoW and EQ to be anti-casual.  You can't just pop in and out like you do at an old-style camp.  You need to set aside a few hours and focus 100% on the game without interruption for that stretch.  Baby wakes up?  Important phone call?  Cat barfs?  Oops, sorry, that first two hours is down the toilet not only for you, but most likely for everyone in your group.  That's a quick ticket to popularityville, I tell you what.  

I'm assuming you mean COH instead of WoW here, (I could be wrong and you're in the WoW beta), and that you're using 'casual' as time-starved.  I'll agree with this segment in that light.  Instancing in EQ isn't good for the guy who might have to pop offline suddenly. Instancing in COH is much shorter in duration (I can complete a mission in about 45 mins with my scrapper.) but still, if you have to pop offline suddenly you've lost all progress on that mission. You get to keep the XP, but EQ gives you a "fail" while COH requires you to restart the mission the next time you login.  In all COH is friendlier because you aren't punished and you CAN just /afk in a safely cleared spot in your mission (most times) without worrying that you're going to fail because of a timer.

   Outside of giving MMOs 'save games' and turning them into monthly single player games, though, I've conceded the fact that you have to be able to set aside a block of time to play for crawls like this.  It's nice to HAVE crawls, but they can't ever fully replace having the ability to do 'grinding' for the guys who want to pop on for a few mins or who want to play but know something might happen shortly to drive them offline. That's just going to be the nature of the genre, IMO.

There is also a tendency in EQ and COH to use instancing as an excuse to throw together shitty, soulless, modular crap in some random way and call it a dungeon.  Fortunately, WoW has bucked this trend, and EQ is starting to (we got shitty and soulless but non-modular instances in GoD!).

You will get NO arguments from me here.  There is no reason, outside of laziness or wanting to force people into the more interesting handcrafted dungeons, to provide the banal layouts of some of the LDON dungeons.  COH's layout could use some more pieces, and they would definatly be better served by having handcrafted dungeons for at least the 'important' battles in a storyline.

   Still, their current model provides them a small footprint on my hard drive that was probably wiser for a game they weren't sure how popular it was going to be.  They could put more time into polishing their mechanics than worrying about pathing/collision issues in Dungeon_05 or Dr. Vaz's lair.  If they don't work to expand the offerings now, after they've seen how the game is doing, I'll be dissapointed.

Each instance (and some non-instanced area outside the instance) should share the same public channels, and there should be some easy way to get from the common area to groups in the instances.  You wanna camp, go camp. You wanna crawl, go crawl.  Usually, I prefer camping, because sometimes I need to answer the phone or take a crap, but I am funny like that.

I'll agree that a common channel would be a bit nicer.  It does get damn lonely in COH missions all by myself if nobody in my SG is on.  I have this problem less in EQ because I'm in so many OTHER channels (friend, and server-wide channels, not to mention /tells and guildchat) that I don't miss the /ooc spam.

I've never had a problem with taking a quick (or sometimes an extended) AFK in COH.  Because the missions aren't always timed, taking a break to step away after I've gotten pissed off, need to use the john or answer the phone doesn't hinder me.  EQ is much less friendly in this regard, and I'd love to have some way to stop the timer.  However, it DOES grant the advantage of me knowing that I only have to be there for X length of time.  Since you HAVE to do each LDON with at least 2 other people, it also means that you don't have to worry about one of the other two people taking off for 30 minutes, a problem I *DID* have in COH when I was doing missions with pickup groups.

MMOGs are not a replacement for Counterstrike for me, they are more a replacement for going fishing.  Not everyone is like that (I seem to remember Soukan and I talking about this in one of the many similar threads in the past, he views MMOGS as a substitute for more action-oriented video games).  But I like a good crawl now and again too, usually on a weekend when I can set aside the time.  I don't have children, when I do my crawling days will probably be over, since I cannot function reliably on less than 8 hours of sleep.  People who constantly rave about upcoming games where PvE raiding has small numbers "so everyone really matters" should realize that is pretty anti-casual for the same reasons, but that is another thread.

Fishing requires a lot of time set-aside to do it.  I'd rather have a get in-get out experience that was methodical in nature and requiring some critical thinking, but not necessarily time consuming.  Smaller chunks of time to get smaller bits of content completed is ok with me. It's the 5-hour raids and required 72-person encounters at the current EQ endgame that drive me nuts. Personal preference, though.  

I don't see 24-person raids as anti-casual.  It's more 'anti stupid gamer.' You need to know your class and abilities better, and the content needs to recognize not everyone is the upper 1% of their skills when it's designed.  But, yeah, like you said that's a different thread.

What you cannot overlook, though, is that instancing drastically increases the rate of content consumption.  If you have pervasive instancing, you have to put up with running out of content quickly, really rushed and buggy expansions, or paying a hell of a lot more than you pay now.

The only difference in content consumption is the upper end isn't cockblocking the lower end.  I still don't have a character over level 20 in COH.  I'll advance at my own pace and get to things when I feel like moving forward to them. I don't have to worry about some level 50 sweeping in and killing Dr. Vahz on me.

That's what affects the content consumption in EQ more than anything, currently.  For example, my current guild is trying to key itself for Vex Thal.  It's a pain in the ass, but a lot of the players have jumped through SOE's hoops.  However, we're getting cockblocked by the few guilds still going there on a regular basis because they're jumping the emperor as soon as he's able to be raided, and keeping us out of their 'personal playground' zone.

   They're consuming content almost 3 years after it was published, because that's the rate of their consumption.  This kind of restriction drives away more people than it retains, IMO.  I know I'm not up for giving out my phone # so I can be called as soon as ubermob_01 spawns so we can jump in. I'd rather we continued with our scheduled 2 encounter days a week and get there when we get there.

So, yeah.  I was wrong when I said instancing necessarily destroys community.  I will stick to my guns on adhering to the old Law of Online Worlds that says you need to build downtime into your primary activity to have community though.  At least until vice-to-text or voice chat actually works.

I think it's more important to provide the opportunity for downtime more than enforcing it.  If players want to socialize, they will, and providing the downtime for it is a good thing.  Forcing socialization mechanics and downtime in the name of getting players to talk really just leads to more hate and pissiness than anything else.  The players will band together AGAINST you, but that's not really the type of community you want to enforce.

[HaemishM]

Or they will come up with ways to get around the downtime and forced grouping by doing stupid shit like two-boxing. The fact that game developers don't seem to mind two-boxing, because of the second revenue stream, is a testament to the short-sightedness of the genre. Mainly because when Mr. TwoBox gets done, you lose two account streams as opposed to one, and he spends less time in your game because he was able to complete the content twice as fast.

However, instancing can allow Mr. TwoBox to be able to handle the content on his own (or with friends) without the necessity for a second account, if the content is worthwhile to do solo.

[Trippy]

I don't think that all instancing is bad really.  Just all the instancing I have seen.  I have found the instancing in WoW and EQ to be anti-casual.  You can't just pop in and out like you do at an old-style camp.  You need to set aside a few hours and focus 100% on the game without interruption for that stretch.  Baby wakes up?  Important phone call?  Cat barfs?  Oops, sorry, that first two hours is down the toilet not only for you, but most likely for everyone in your group.  That's a quick ticket to popularityville, I tell you what.

That's funny, your description above is exactly how things used to be like when I was playing EQ (pre-PoP days). If you didn't have at least 2 hours to play it wasn't worth logging on at all. The first half hour or so was spent trying to find a group. If you were lucky and managed to get one, then the next half hour was spent trying to get everybody to agree on where to go first and then getting them there. Then when you got there, chances were most of the good camps were already taken. Then you spent another 15 minutes traveling someplace else just to find out that place was pretty much camped out as well. Once you finally found a zone with a suitable camp spot inevitably your cleric would have to leave screwing over the entire party.

There is also a tendency in EQ and COH to use instancing as an excuse to throw together shitty, soulless, modular crap in some random way and call it a dungeon.  Fortunately, WoW has bucked this trend, and EQ is starting to (we got shitty and soulless but non-modular instances in GoD!).

I haven't seen any of the newer EQ dungeons but I agree that the level design of the CoH indoor missions that I've played through are underwhelming at best.

My view is that instancing should take big, handcrafted dungeons and make copies of them to prevent overcrowding.  Think Sebilis or Chardok, or whatever well-designed dungeon gets your rocks off.  Each instance (and some non-instanced area outside the instance) should share the same public channels, and there should be some easy way to get from the common area to groups in the instances.  You wanna camp, go camp. You wanna crawl, go crawl.

I've only seen a video of one instanced dungeon in WoW so far (Wailing Caverns) but it looks to have all the attributes you described above. It's a huge handcrafted cavern that has a common area in front with mobs you can kill if want to pass some time waiting for a pickup group. Once inside you can either just find a nice place to camp or you can crawl through and kill some of the quest mobs.

What you cannot overlook, though, is that instancing drastically increases the rate of content consumption.  If you have pervasive instancing, you have to put up with running out of content quickly, really rushed and buggy expansions, or paying a hell of a lot more than you pay now.

Personally I would rather just take a break from playing and wait for the next expansion if I plow through all the (instanced) content than put up again with the incredible grind games like EQ put you through to slow your progress down in the game. And it's not like the non-instanced EQ high-end quest content ever worked properly the first time either even after giving the developers those extra months after the release of an expansion to finish that content. Inevitably the first uber guild to reach the end of an end game quest would find a) the final mob was broken somehow (e.g. wouldn't spawn), b) be incredibly easy to kill thanks to some level design/pathing bug, c) have an empty loot table.

[personman]

Mainly because when Mr. TwoBox gets done, you lose two account streams as opposed to one, and he spends less time in your game because he was able to complete the content twice as fast.

I agree with you, but I have to ask, what's better: Mr. TwoBox for three months, or Ms OneBox for six months?  ;-)

[HRose]

A world implies that I must LIVE in it to really get anything out of it. I have a life, thank you very much, I don't need to recreate it in pixel form.

I don't think so. As I said I don't see a real tie between the "virtual world" idea and the issues you consider.

[El Gallo]

Much better argument, El Gallo. Now you've got some stuff I can agree with, and some bits to pick at.  

/blush  Yeah I think we agree on most things here, as all right thinking people would do.  Just to pick some nits...

I'm assuming you mean COH instead of WoW here, (I could be wrong and you're in the WoW beta)

I am in the WoW beta, mostly play a tauren warrior (level 40 and catassing as much as I can!).  Getting 3/4 of the way through an instance and losing a player *sucks* (yes, I know there are a few ways around it, but they are kludgey at best).

WoW instances are not that conductive to old fashioned grouping because it is hard to replace players and because the good mobs don't respawn.

that you're using 'casual' as time-starved.

kinda.  Time-starved in the sense that we can't give undivided attention very often or very long.

It's nice to HAVE crawls, but they can't ever fully replace having the ability to do 'grinding' for the guys who want to pop on for a few mins or who want to play but know something might happen shortly to drive them offline. That's just going to be the nature of the genre, IMO.

Yes. My issue is not that I can't have the game on for 3 hours most nights.  It's that I cannot lock the doors, turn off the ringer and keep my eyes glued to the screen for even half that amount of time.  I don't know what the title for the "powergamer where things pop up" demographic is, but I do think that we were served pretty well by EQ, once the overpopulation era ended.  Good old "farming blues" pickup groups and most EQ raids worked well too, since the "eyes peeled or wipe" times were few and typically spaced out.  These two play models have been the whipping boy for years now, and I am sympathetic with the whipping.  But, there is a cost.  You want edge-of-your seat action, you have to stay at the edge of your seat.  

I don't see 24-person raids as anti-casual.  It's more 'anti stupid gamer.' You need to know your class and abilities better, and the content needs to recognize not everyone is the upper 1% of their skills when it's designed.

I have no doubt it would require better play.   But it would also require undivided focus (see above re: popping up).  More importantly, it would require much higher attendence percentages to do effectively.  Unless you can schedule events very well, it will be hard to have just the right number.  With large numbers, you can be more lax.  I like my current EQ guild (only RC to go for time) because we have a pretty wide variety of players, ranging from 95% attendence down to about 35%.  Usually aim to have about 60 or so on for raids, and get 50-70, which is fine for just about anything we do.  I log on when I want.  When I don't log on, I don't feel bad about it.

If you have raids tuned for 24, not only is everyone who shows up over 24 locked out, you are probably going to need at least 20 to win.  That's a pretty tight range.  Easy for 24 person guilds with 99% attendence rates, but very hard for most guilds.  Easy for 24 person guilds who have 2 encounter nights with 99% attendence, too.  Bad for the guy who often does not know if he'll be able to raid that night untill well into the afternoon (me).  Now I do feel bad when I miss raid night.  If I miss it a few times, I will need to be replaced.   Not undoable, but again, everyone likes to harp on Velious+ raids where everyone is just a number.  I have harped on that myself.  But there is a real cost when you move away from that.

The only difference in content consumption is the upper end isn't cockblocking the lower end.  

Yeah, imagine how shitty EQ expansions would be if they had to churn them twice as fast?  Without cockblocks, I have no doubt my guild (and at least 8 others on my server) would have been finished with GoD months ago, and they'd have to spit out OOW even faster.  As you said, cockblocking chokes content consumption.  I don't like being cockblocked (we were blocked out of Vex Thal by 2 European guilds and one of their EST allies for months, weer CB'd out of the elementals a while too).  But if you take away cockblocking, you are going to have to pony up lots and lots and lots of content, pronto.  That's expensive as hell.  This is a real issue, unless you want to go with the Trippy solution of taking a few months off regularly.

I think it's more important to provide the opportunity for downtime more than enforcing it.  If players want to socialize, they will, and providing the downtime for it is a good thing.  Forcing socialization mechanics and downtime in the name of getting players to talk really just leads to more hate and pissiness than anything else.  The players will band together AGAINST you, but that's not really the type of community you want to enforce.

Here I think you and I just disagree.  I don't think that opportunity is enough.  Nobody is going to go hang out at the tavern in the hope of finding someone to socialize with (I know you meant something more robust than that).   A lot of people would feel uncomfortable acting affirmatively to initiate socialization (that's where my fishing example comes from. Lots of guys go fishing/golfing/whatever as an excuse to BS, even though they would never just pick up the phone and BS).

I think you have to give your players regular breathers where they have time to chat a little (NOT old time EQ-level downtime).  WoW may be taking a good step in this direction by removing combat drinking.  This is not to say that soloing with relatively little downtime should not be an option, I think it should.  But it should always be better, game rewards wise, to be in a group with a little downtime.

[HaemishM]

Then you haven't been paying attention to the MMOG genre, you silly man.

Mainly because when Mr. TwoBox gets done, you lose two account streams as opposed to one, and he spends less time in your game because he was able to complete the content twice as fast.

I agree with you, but I have to ask, what's better: Mr. TwoBox for three months, or Ms OneBox for six months?  ;-)

Ms. OneBox for six months, IMO. Ms. OneBox doesn't bitch, moan and complain in 3 months that there's no content. She gives me an extra 3 months to create more content to slake her lust. She also gives me 6 months of steady revenue, as opposed to 3. In that 6 months time, I have the opportunity to wrangle up twice as many new accounts as in Mr. TwoBox's 3 months.

[stray]

Some more D&D Online info:

http://dnd.warcry.com/scripts/news/view_news.phtml?site=37&id=27647

Figured I'd do some cutting and pasting here. Since you're all talking about instancing already, I'll take those bits out. There's a lot more going for it:

We watched the video which was amazing and then Jason Booth made us watch it again after he explained the dynamics of the game and how it differed from some of the other MMORPGs out there. Some of the actions or skills that I noticed characters using on the second (and later a third) viewing of the gameplay video:

- using stealth in a dark area
- backstabbing a monster
- dual wield of daggers
- shooting out a light source with an arrow
- wading in water
- climbing walls
- blocking attacks
- rolling out of the way of attacks
- getting knocked down by a monster
- charging monsters

D&D Online, we were told, will be a very action-driven game which will be reflected in the interface. However, to alleviate people who are not comfortable with "twitch" style gaming, the designers are working to group buttons in a logical manner - block and dodge will be on buttons next to each other, for example. The UI will be "easy to learn, hard to master" they say but will feel natural as you learn it and practice.

Six months of development were spent just on deciding how combat would work and Turbine says the gameplay will be very different from that of other MMORPGs. They focused on how they could merge action with the depth of the D&D ruleset.

From what I can tell, the combat system is more than I could ask for in a MMORPG. All I've ever wanted was "Defense", blocking and dodging, not entirely dependent on stats. It sounds like DDO will be offering even more than that.

One thing they decided to do as they delved into the game concepts was just how many options a player could have even in something like combat which is fairly goal-oriented. Players could have many options (many of which I listed in the video impressions) and how could they implement them and also reward them? Booth shared with us that you won't get xp for killing monsters in D&D Online! You actually will be rewarded based on how you killed them. Better solutions will give you better rewards.

Your actions, true to D&D, will be affected by your attributes and skills as well as a number of other factors. For example, when using stealth, the effectiveness of your stealth will depend on how much light there is in the area, how much sound the player is making, your stealth skill level, how aware is the monster of what is going on around them, etc.

Physics play an interesting part in the game and Jason Booth told us how he accidentally set a part of a dungeon on fire since fire can spread. Furthermore, he once hit a monster with a flame spell and the monster ran down the hall and ran by an unlit torch which then became lit again!

[Mesozoic]

I don't remember ever trying to create a virtual world for my AD&D players.  I was making adventures.  And the D&D "worlds" (Forgotten Realms. etc.) were described as "campaign settings" for a reason.  Each was a location for a series of adventures which centered around the players.  So I don't see any precedent for Turbine to bend over backwards to create a plausible, virtual world for the franchise.

[stray]

I don't remember ever trying to create a virtual world for my AD&D players.  I was making adventures.  And the D&D "worlds" (Forgotten Realms. etc.) were described as "campaign settings" for a reason.  Each was a location for a series of adventures which centered around the players.  So I don't see any precedent for Turbine to bend over backwards to create a plausible, virtual world for the franchise.

I'll agree with you. I like the direction they're taking, which is more true to the spirit of Dungeons and Dragons, but if there's anything worth making a plausible "virtual world" out of, this would probably be it. There's at least some precedent for it (you could pretty much make a virtual world about anything). I like the little details a virtual world provides, but only enough to enhance the game. When it starts determining what that game is, then I get pissed.

[El Gallo]

I've been waiting for years for someone to say "slake her lust" on these forums.

I understand why people want twitchier gameplay, but AD&D Online seems like an odd choice for it.  AD&D is the epitome of stats-based mechanics.   Unless you are really smooth with the dice.

[schild]

- using stealth in a dark area
- backstabbing a monster
- dual wield of daggers
- shooting out a light source with an arrow
- blocking attacks
- rolling out of the way of attacks

I would really love to see an actual video of someone playing the game and doing all of this. It's leaps and bounds beyond any action in any other MMORPG. Until I see this in action with someone sitting at the computer doing those things, I have a feeling I should also expect proper implementation of the fetuspault.

[Alluvian]

A word of caution, from a video you can't tell jack shit.  NWN can show videos of everything there except wall climbing and shooting a lightsource.

The rest of the text stated blocking and dodging was player driver timing based, but a video won't confirm that.

[stray]

I've been waiting for years for someone to say "slake her lust" on these forums.

I understand why people want twitchier gameplay, but AD&D Online seems like an odd choice for it.  AD&D is the epitome of stats-based mechanics.   Unless you are really smooth with the dice.

Yeah, I guess I'm full of shit, because in one post I praised them for making it a group oriented game, which is being more true to the spirit of D&D...Yet here I am excited that it'll be more action rather than stat oriented. I'm more interested in what a player can do, not a "character". I'm sure stats will play a factor somehow, but just the idea of any twitch gameplay will probably turn off true PnP D&D'ers and role players (these people are probably upset that it isn't turn based too). Good riddance. It sounds like it may be fun for "gamers" though.

One other thing worth mentioning that I picked up at the Vault (ahem):

http://vault.ign.com/articles/520/520943p1.html

Vault Network: You've announced the use of the Havok engine (also used in Half Life 2) and full combat physics in the game. Will this help set the game apart from existing MMOs where combat requires little more than "point and click"?


Ken Troop: MMPs have traditionally been about advancement. Ours is an MMP about combat. Playing the game, no matter what level your character, will involve teams of players battling their way through nasty, trapped, monster-filled dungeons. Having a robust physics system allows us to do a lot more with movement, monster reactions, and interactive environments, all of which add up to an awesome dungeon-crawling experience.

Sweet. Here I was thinking they were just going to recycle the AC2 engine. Hopefully though, it's not all about combat. CoH might be able to get away with it, but DnD needs more.

I would really love to see an actual video of someone playing the game and doing all of this. It's leaps and bounds beyond any action in any other MMORPG. Until I see this in action with someone sitting at the computer doing those things, I have a feeling I should also expect proper implementation of the fetuspault.

http://www.stratics.com/content/portals/ddo/content/ddomovie.avi

23MB. Not exactly what you're asking for, but good enough.

P.S. Think you could hook up an interview with these guys?

[MrHat]

http://www.stratics.com/content/portals/ddo/content/ddomovie.avi

23MB. Not exactly what you're asking for, but good enough.

P.S. Think you could hook up an interview with these guys?

Ambitious.  Hooking up HL:Source to an MMO.  Bah, damn my girlish infatuation w/ MMO.

Schild, I'd like to see thier answers to some of your hardball questions.  Official second nomination.

[schild]

I'll get right on that, I've already got the PR emails. Start sending me questions in PM. Over the next 3 days I'm moving, so I won't be talking much. Goddamn RSX won't hold shit.

Edit, I take that back. I have the emails for Middle Earth Online...I'll see who I can get ahold of before Friday.

Oh, and that video is great. The game looks like some sort of hybrid between Die by the Sword, Ninja Gaiden, and erhm well, that's all I can say about that, couldn't see the UI. (I think the wall climbing bit was prerendered cgi).

God what great irony it would be for Turbine to smack down EQ with AD&D.

[Trippy]

http://www.stratics.com/content/portals/ddo/content/ddomovie.avi

23MB. Not exactly what you're asking for, but good enough.

All that tumbling around in full armor while wielding a weapon *and* carrying a shield is just too goofy. Why can't they just have the guy do a side step?

[stray]

http://www.stratics.com/content/portals/ddo/content/ddomovie.avi

23MB. Not exactly what you're asking for, but good enough.

All that tumbling around in full armor while wielding a weapon *and* carrying a shield is just too goofy. Why can't they just have the guy do a side step?

Yeah, you may be right about that. It doesn't look like he's wearing plate, but a Fighter with a shield should probably be doing more blocking, while Rogues do the dodging. Armor class should definitely be a factor, but maybe he's a Barb wearing Light? I heard that these skills still have to be purchased/trained and all, but I wonder if there's prerequisites or classes prohibited from training them (for example: I read that Clerics won't be able to train "Bluff". Something similar should be done with Dodge. Are all classes in tabletop DnD able to train "Evasion" or "Tumble"?).

Still pretty impressive though. I can't think of another MMORPG with realtime maneuvering (besides moving behind a structure or whatnot..and even then, that barely works). If there was one, I'd be playing it.

EDIT: Dev reply on the Vault..

While this is a faster, more intense combat system than other MMPs, it's all based in the D&D rules. You don't get to roll all over the place without a high tumble skill. Most of the player actions are gated by D&D stats, skills, and abilities.

- Just because it's faster, doesn't mean it's Counterstrike. It does mean that arrows won't follow you around corners. (Magic missile, of course, still does!) Still, you won't need FPS-speed reflexes to excel at this game. You will, however, need to pay attention.

[Megrim]

http://www.stratics.com/content/portals/ddo/content/ddomovie.avi

23MB. Not exactly what you're asking for, but good enough.

All that tumbling around in full armor while wielding a weapon *and* carrying a shield is just too goofy. Why can't they just have the guy do a side step?

Yeah, you may be right about that. It doesn't look like he's wearing plate, but a Fighter with a shield should probably be doing more blocking, while Rogues do the dodging. Armor class should definitely be a factor, but maybe he's a Barb wearing Light? I heard that these skills still have to be purchased/trained and all, but I wonder if there's prerequisites or classes prohibited from training them (for example: I read that Clerics won't be able to train "Bluff". Something similar should be done with Dodge. Are all classes in tabletop DnD able to train "Evasion" or "Tumble"?).

Still pretty impressive though. I can't think of another MMORPG with realtime maneuvering (besides moving behind a structure or whatnot..and even then, that barely works). If there was one, I'd be playing it.

EDIT: Dev reply on the Vault..

While this is a faster, more intense combat system than other MMPs, it's all based in the D&D rules. You don't get to roll all over the place without a high tumble skill. Most of the player actions are gated by D&D stats, skills, and abilities.

- Just because it's faster, doesn't mean it's Counterstrike. It does mean that arrows won't follow you around corners. (Magic missile, of course, still does!) Still, you won't need FPS-speed reflexes to excel at this game. You will, however, need to pay attention.

Yup, it's cross-class for some (class for others) but all can rank in it. Thing is, armor has progressively higher penalties (-10 for full plate iirc) as do shields. So a heavily armoured fighter or cleric jumping around is usually a no-no.

The lighter variety of fighters (monk, ranger, barb, fighter/thief, fighter/bards, fighters who spec in ranged weapons) sometimes go for Tumbling as they wear less cumbersome armor and can actually put the skill to use.

Furthermore, iirc Tumbling as such is not used for "dodging" attacks. You would roll a check on it if you are moving through someone's 'threat range' (and thus provoking an 'attack of opportunity') or if you are attempting to say, dive and roll under a table to get cross a room. There are a few feats you can that simply add a 'dodging' bonus to your AC (as opposed to a Miscellaneous or a Magical one) but it's not actually used to avoid attacks.

 - Meg