Pic of the next generation 360, some statistics from engadget.

[sigil]

Den this if this is old news, but Endgadget has a look of the next XBox 360

Main differences being :

Cooler 65nm  processor

120GB HD (perhaps as an add on?)

Built in HDMI with 1080p output.


YMMV, I didn't write the article, yadda yadda yadda.

[stray]

Squirrel mentioned it in the PS3 thread, but maybe this shouldn't be denned.

I'll just state the same thing I said there: All of those features are good. The hard drive especially, if you really want to make use of XBL in the future (both for games, as well as video content).

Mainly good for new adopters though, not for current owners. Whether it's true or not, it's the kind of thing I expect from Microsoft, and why I think they're bad for the console industry. Heaven help us if they ever become number one.

The other rumor about there possibly being a built in hddvd in the works? Cool for movies, stupid for games. In fact, zilch for games. No dev would program for it. Those kind of features need to be on all models of the console from the get go. Like the PS3. Case in point: Did you see a big influx of network enabled or hard drive enabled games for the PS2 once they released those additions? No.

[squirrel]

Those kind of features need to be on all models of the console from the get go. Like the PS3. Case in point: Did you see a big influx of network enabled or hard drive enabled games for the PS2 once they released those additions? No.

True. As I said in the other thread though, the vast majority of games coming are mult-platform. Some, like the  GTA franchise, will take the time to make additional content for the PS3. But most? Nope. Why bother? It's not like the PS3 has the millions of users the PS2 does. And if they do bother to make extra content for the PS3 they can easily release a 360 'enhanced' version. The very issue you describe of 'have' and 'have nots' is going to be just as bad on the PS3 because the days of strictly exclusive titles are over. The vast increase in costs to produce AAA games makes multi-platform releases a necessity.

[MuffinMan]

Within a week of buying my 360. Yay I love getting screwed!

[stray]

360 'enhanced' version.

Sounds like a nightmare to me. They would practically have to create entirely different looking boxes in order not to confuse people...I mean, it's virtually a different platform from what most XBox users have.

I'd sooner expect to see 2 or 3 DVD sized games than that.....Which carries it's own problems too.

These rumors probably aren't even true though. Except hard drive upgrades. And for the most part, I expect 360 devs to target the Core system, and only that. Because that's what most people are buying. I just hope that sort of dinkiness doesn't trickle down to PS3 games too much.

[schild]

Most people are buying the premium 360 actually. I think it's like a 5:1 ratio actually. Microsoft is pretty much only shipping premiums now.

[stray]

Sorry, I just have anecdotal evidence really. I know a fair share of Haemish's ;). Got any sales numbers to confirm that?

[EDIT]

Besides, most people in general are attracted to whatever's cheaper. Some are still buying XBoxes, PS2's, and GC's. And whatever of these nextgen console versions is cheaper, that's the one these late adopting consumers will eventually go for. Wii, cheaper PS3, Core 360, etc.. Developers will target accordingly. They can't just sacrifice Core users, if that's what will be a legitimate segment of the 360 market.

[squirrel]

Sorry, I just have anecdotal evidence really. I know a fair share of Haemish's ;). Got any sales numbers to confirm that?

[EDIT]

Besides, most people in general are attracted to whatever's cheaper. Some are still buying XBoxes, PS2's, and GC's. And whatever of these nextgen console versions is cheaper, that's the one these late adopting consumers will eventually go for. Wii, cheaper PS3, Core 360, etc.. Developers will target accordingly. They can't just sacrifice Core users, if that's what will be a legitimate segment of the 360 market.

Sure they can - the Xbox core is by far the minority and it's not like they can't say 'requires Hard Drive' much like todays PC games require certain components. You can add a hard drive to the Core system relatively cheaply you know. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft encouraged that for additional revenue.

[Sairon]

Everything will depend on the PS3 exclusives, if the ones scheduled for 2007 lives up to the hype it WILL surpass both the Wii and 360 in number of installed consoles, and then suddenly it gets intresting to tailor the games for the PS3.

[stray]

Sorry for the derail, but I don't understand why they didn't do that at launch. Specifically, why the hell did they get Imsomniac to make a shooter? Resistance is cool and all, but I bet a suped up Ratchet and Clank might have done a better job at attracting people, as well as setting itself apart from the already flooded sci-fi shooter genre on the 360. Resistance would have been better for a later release.

Same goes for Sony's NBA game. Give it up. 2K is better. They would have been better off concentrating on something else. I would have rather seen a Mark of Kri sequel than that shit (same studio I think).

On the vehicular front, Motorstorm is going to rock. Too bad it wasn't a launch title. Same might go for Warhawk.

Basically, anything even remotely handled by Sony that's being released later this year should have been launch titles. Getaway 3, White Knight Story, Heavenly Sword, Lair, F106, and the others I mentioned.

[HaemishM]

Sorry, I just have anecdotal evidence really. I know a fair share of Haemish's ;).

One of the reasons I don't have a 360 is that I won't buy the gimped Core version. It's cheaper price is not a selling point, it's a turnoff. I also won't buy a 360 right now because I'm not in the financial position to pay $400 for a console and it's against my religion to pay $400 for a console.

It ain't about cheap, it's about value for the bucks you spend.

[schild]

For parents and casual types all around the globe, it's all about cheap and it's the main reason the Wii is selling so much.

[stray]

It ain't about cheap, it's about value for the bucks you spend.

Oddly enough, that's what tipped me over to the PS3 camp. I'd be paying $700 bucks to get the equivalent on a 360 (and not even equivalent really).

As far as the Wii goes, again, it's cool and all, but "value" it is not. Cut off $100, or even $50, and I'd say fair deal.

Motion sensing already has a foundation on the PS3 anyhow....But with the added benefit of not completely dictating everything.

[Strazos]

Motion sensing is a gimmick among gimmicks on the PS3.

[stray]

It's still too early to tell, but from what I've done with it, it added to the game, rather than hampered it.

So far, it's use has been mild, but welcomed nonetheless. Freethrows in basketball are done with motion sensing. Cool enough. Some sequences in Resistance use it as well. Those sequences are just a bit more immersive for having it.

Point is though, IF they want to release a Wiimote ripoff, they could. They could mimic the best that Nintendo has to offer -- With more shiny. The capability is there just in case, and that's better than not having it at all. Don't be a dick.

...

Motorstorm has it, but I'm finding it very difficult. Holding the gamepad isn't the best means for emulating steering. I'd rather use standard gamepad controls.

[Jeff Kelly]

The PS3 is very good value if you consider it not only as a game console but also as a Blue Ray Player.

A very reputable german magazine tested all HD-DVD and Blue Ray Players currently available and came to the conclusion that the PS3 is hands down the best Blue Ray player available today and that it trumps competition that is thrice the price.

On a related note they stated that the HD-DVD drive for the X-Box 360 would make it the best HD-DVD player available  if it weren't for the lack of HDMI and the noise both of which should be eliminated with the new edition.

So a 600 Euro game console from microsoft (400 + 200 for the HD-DVD) is a better player than Toshiba and Samsung players that cost Eur 1000 to 1500 and a 600 Euro game console from sony is a better Blue Ray player than those from other brands that cost Eur 1000-1500.

Both consoles are already heralded by HDTV-nuts as a cheap (with respect to other brands) and good way to get players for the next gen video discs.

I know that that most people don't care about that however but for those looking for a cheap blue ray player and game console there is no better way right now, at least until the other brands lower prices (and severly fix bugs, all the players on the market right now have severe software issues).

[Yegolev]

Resistance follows a formula for sales that suits can understand.  WWII FPS, cyborg monster enemies, than nifty healthbar from Riddick.  It's fun but seriously, it's like two or three game ideas mashed into one.  I guess it also explains why R&C: Deadlocked was so lame.

[schild]

Motion sensing is a gimmick among gimmicks on the PS3.

This is one of the more retarded things you've said.

[NiX]

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe there's a consumer law in Canada stating that a company can't release the same branded product with significant differences to its original shipped product unless they offer some kind of retrofit to customers who bought the original product. For all you assbags with a wrench up your ass, I said I'm not 100% sure.

Edit: Looking at that picture, it seems off. Where did the clip holes go for the wireless dongle?

[stray]

I guess that would disqualify the built in hd-dvd then (at least for gaming). I don't think hdmi or extra hdd space would be a problem.

This is one of the more retarded things you've said.

Yeah, I should have just said that. His statement doesn't even make sense.

[stray]

Actually, he needs to air out his grievances. The console wars must begin here and now (Feel free to premptively den this if you disagree)!! 


Seriously, why would someone say that? I don't understand the hate -- where is it coming from? Why is the possibility of motion sensing a gimmick (but not the full implementation of motion sensing on Nintendo?) -- and why are all of the other features of the Playstation gimmicks on top of that?

Basically, it's just another game console. A piece of hardware no different than the 360 or Wii when it comes down to it. And yet, it's the only one full of gimmicks?

For example, how is built-in Wi-Fi or Bluetooth a gimmick? Wireless internet, on top of more concurrent controls is a gimmick? Or being able to hook up a wireless mouse and keyboard is a gimmick?

How about gigabit ethernet? How is that a gimmick? Or full HD output? Or Blu-Ray playback and storage? Or free online play? Or hard drives equipped standard? Or the ability to read memory cards and memory sticks? Or PSP interactivity? Or the ability to install other OS's (without hacking)? Or the ability to run vertical and horizontal without fucking up? Or the Cell's processing capabilities?

Those things speak of versatility and performance. Not gimmicks.

I'll grant you this though: It's Black Monolith design is gimmicky. The touch sensitive eject and power buttons are gimmicky. And their Spider-Man inspired logo is gimmicky. That you can surf Pr0n in full HD is kind of gimmicky (B3YOND Gaming B3YOTCH!). But that's about it.

[Morfiend]

Straz pissed in Strays wheaties.

Awesome.


 

[stray]

It's all in good fun. No eye rolling please. It hurts.

[Velorath]

Actually, he needs to air out his grievances. The console wars must begin here and now (Feel free to premptively den this if you disagree)!! 

I don't know about Den, but we've got about 3 topics or so here that have turned into console wars.  It might be easier to have it all thrown into one topic that schild can post in any time he wants to accuse the Wii of being some Keyser Söze-esque dupe Nintendo is perpetrating.

[stray]

I myself think it's a dupe -- But a pretty good one. Hardware-wise at least. The games are not dupes.

But yeah, consolidating all topics and/or making a general thread would be nice. All I ask is that nobody be a spiteful chump. And don't downplay shit that you wish your preferred console had. Give me a real war. Not your bullshit. Or just give it up entirely. Haha.

[Velorath]

I myself think it's a dupe -- But a pretty good one. Hardware-wise at least. The games are not dupes.

But yeah, consolidating all topics and/or making a general thread would be nice. All I ask is that nobody be a spiteful chump. And don't downplay shit that you wish your preferred console had. Give me a real war. Not your bullshit. Or just give it up entirely. Haha.

As I've said elsewhere, I think the PS3 is a good value for the actual hardware involved.  On the gaming side of things though, I'm not convinced they're going to have the same variety of games they did last gen though.  Developers are going to go where the money is, and it's no so obvious this time around that Sony is going to be where it's at.  They don't have a head start this time and they lost momentum bungling their launch, and with all the bad press leading up to it.  They couldn't lock down games like Assassin's Creed, Virtua Fighter 5, or even long time Sony exclusive series like Armored Core down as PS3 exclusives.  Capcom is getting ready to release its second 360 exclusive. If, God forbid, something ever happened to David Jaffe, my desire to own a PS3 would go from slim to none at this point.  If their first round of exclusives like Motorstorm, Heavenly Sword, and Lair aren't hits, they're pretty much dead in the water until MGS4 releases.

I don't think the Wii is a dupe.  I think Nintendo had the brains to realize that the console market isn't big enough for three consoles to target the same gamers.  I can see why schild at least doesn't get it.  He's about as hardcore a gamer as one can be.  A console aimed at casual gamers who don't buy a double-digit number of games each month must be an anathema to him.  If people are out there playing the thing and enjoying it I'm not sure where the dupe comes in, although I do agree that they probably could have lowered the price by at least $50 and still made a profit of the console sales.

[schild]

Fuck that. I play the HELL out of casual games. It lets me see that Nintendo didn't have the R&D funds to research an entirely new system so just sold the Cube repackaged with a new accessory. We got duped into buying a $200 Controller and a $50 gamecube. Or even worse, a $200 Gamecube and a $50 controller.

[Velorath]

Fuck that. I play the HELL out of casual games. It lets me see that Nintendo didn't have the R&D funds to research an entirely new system so just sold the Cube repackaged with a new accessory. We got duped into buying a $200 Controller and a $50 gamecube. Or even worse, a $200 Gamecube and a $50 controller.

And yet you know the thing is more powerful than a GC (3X is the number I see get kicked around though I don't think any actual specs have ever been revealed) so quit intentionally acting like a dumbass.  It's beneath you, especially when you go on to bring up $50 controllers.  If the Wii has any problems right now it's that developers with the same short-sightedness as you dismissed it, and they're probably kicking themselves now after seeing the sales numbers.  I'm sure Square right now has to be wondering why they're burning money on two presumably costly FF games for the PS3.

[stray]

More like an oc'ed Gamecube with wifi and better system software. Coupled with the Wiimote, it seems like a $100 upgrade over the GC at best (which would bring it down to $200, I guess).

[Kageru]

Who cares about the hardware stats? If nintendo can attract the game software that engages the social / casual gamer to their platform they might well capture a currently under-served, and potentially substantial, market. So far their plan seems to be working, though the weak launch software is hardly a defining argument.

Likewise the Xbox loses a lot in my eye because it's the penultimate American console. If I wanted drivers, shooters, street life simulators and odd cultural sports games it would be my first choice. But I'm more interested in some of the psychotically odd material the Japanese companies produce and the wii is a tempting target for a lot of that. Especially using the route from scaling DS experiments (stylus == wii pointer to some extent?) upto much larger games.

The PS3 will live or die on how many exclusive, and customised to the HW, titles it can marshal. Good thing they have the Japanese developers onside (read mostly square :)

[schild]

Seeing as Idolm@ster is a 360 game, Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon are exclusives, and even Atlus and NISA are thinking about going to the 360 - I must say that I don't understand your penultimate America comment. Just because that Japan is filled with nonsensicle comsumers, doesn't mean you have to be one. Hell, we get Bullet Witch and EDFX. Who woulda thought that would happen. That sort of shit never even hit the PS2.

[squirrel]

The PS3 is very good value if you consider it not only as a game console but also as a Blue Ray Player.

Actually this is a critical comment in many ways. Blu Ray players are very expensive right now, and the PS3 is not only good value but it's designed to be a phenomenal media machine. For example the underlying cell architecture is not easy to program in a gaming environment due it's low memory and it's requirement to execute linear code in parallel. When devs talk about how the PS3 is hard to code for, it's primarily in reference to this although it's certainly doable.

However, multiple fast processors executing linear in-order instructions is exactly what is required for blazing fast media processing such as decoding hi def video. I own the HD-DVD add-on for my 360 hooked up to a 56" 720p DLP set and I'm very happy with it. But from a little research I know that the 360 is working hard to decode that stream as it's all done in software. The PS3 will eat that stuff alive with cycles to spare. The early negative feedback on Blu Ray is primarily due to the first release titles being encoded with crappy codecs, not any inherent limitation in the format. Strategically, Blu Ray trojan horsing is a huge goal of Sony's with this release.

The question is - and Sony themselves posed it with the "It's not a console, it's a computer" stance - is the PS3 a brilliant media machine with some gaming capabilities or is it the wonder box for your living room? As the owner of a PSP i won't buy potential from Sony, but I do think that the PS3 is a wonderful machine that sacrifices some gaming capability for incredible media potential.

[stray]

Squirrel: It's a kickass gaming machine. Resistance, and GT Concept are great examples of what's possible with it already -- and one is only a launch a title. The other is a canned title. Even EA shows what's possible with their shinier, more beefed up than 360 version of Fight Night.

Sure it's a Blu-Ray trojan horse, but it's a fine gaming machine too. Geez. For every dev that says it's hard to program for, I could find one that says it's even easier than the PS2 (and look where the PS2 went anyhow), as well as ones being downright stoked about it. First, by virtue of it using open GL (an even easier version of OpenGL than that found on PC's btw), and secondly, because they can interface with the SPE's on a high level via Cg (instead of needing all of the specialized low level skills devs needed for harnessing the PS2's capabilities). For example, this guy explains why.

I think the pissing and moaning is coming from either fanbois (who may also be devs) or incompetent fools such as the ones who made that Sonic game for the 360. Or Microsoft employees (In some cases, that really is what's happening. This is what Microsoft has always done, from the history of Apple to Novell to Linux and now this. They'd try it with the Media Player market too, but everyone knows they flat out suck in that respect).

I understand that there's room for cynicism (as there should be with all investments), but seriously, you can't really believe it isn't a gaming machine on par with the 360, can you? The proof is in the putting. It's every bit as good, as well as more versatile.

[squirrel]

Squirrel: It's a kickass gaming machine. Resistance, and GT Concept are great examples of what's possible with it already -- and one is only a launch a title. The other is a canned title. Even EA shows what's possible with their shinier, more beefed up than 360 version of Fight Night.

Sure it's a Blu-Ray trojan horse, but it's a fine gaming machine too. Geez. For every dev that says it's hard to program for, I could find one that says it's even easier than the PS2 (and look where the PS2 went anyhow), as well as ones being downright stoked about it. First, by virtue of it using open GL (an even easier version of OpenGL than that found on PC's btw), and secondly, because they can interface with the SPE's on a high level via Cg (instead of needing all of the specialized low level skills devs needed for harnessing the PS2's capabilities). For example, this guy explains why.

I think the pissing and moaning is coming from either fanbois (who may also be devs) or incompetent fools such as the ones who made that Sonic game for the 360. Or Microsoft employees (In some cases, that really is what's happening. This is what Microsoft has always done, from the history of Apple to Linux and now this. They'd try it with the Media Player market too, but everyone knows they flat out suck in that respect).

I understand that there's room for cynicism (as there should be with all investments), but seriously, you can't really believe it isn't a gaming machine on par with the 360, can you? The proof is in the putting. It's every bit as good, as well as more versatile.

I do believe it's a good gaming machine. I remain unconvinced after an admittedly short (3 days) first hand experience with the titles you mention that it's as good as it should be.

I would love to read some of the references you mention that it's easy or powerful to code for, no cynicism, I just haven't seen alot of material with that pov.

As for being on par with the 360, I think it is, but not significantly superior in anyway from a gaming only viewpoint. This is bad. It's brand new, the 360 is a year old. Any new console should show SIGNIFICANT superiority to a year old machine. It doesn't. IGN and Gamespot have both run large feature stories about how cross platform titles on the two are pretty much identical. Obviously this may change, but everything I've read indicates the 360 also has unused potential to exploit. The PS3 should be a clearly superior gaming platform to the 360. It's not - yet. And analysis of the hardware suggests that it may never take a commanding technical lead. Time will tell.

Versatility? No question, it's great. Gaming? Not a clear win, and it should be.

EDIT: Missed that link, interesting but IMO not very technical.

Also, honestly as a long time Apple customer (i'm on my 5th apple laptop and have owned 6+ of their professional desktops) and a long time Microsoft customer I can say that in my experience Sony is worse than the two combined when it comes to making exaggerated claims, unrealistic goals and consumer FUD. I have owned 2 Sony TV's, a Sony Camcorder, a PS1, a PS2, a PSP and a Vaio laptop. I am not a Sony basher. I am realistic about their products now though, and the PS3 should be better than it currently is. Maybe it will be with firmware and better titles. But maybe not.

[Velorath]

Squirrel: It's a kickass gaming machine. Resistance, and GT Concept are great examples of what's possible with it already -- and one is only a launch a title. The other is a canned title. Even EA shows what's possible with their shinier, more beefed up than 360 version of Fight Night.

Fight Night isn't more beefed up though.  What they did was make the boxers look better but at the cost of making the background look a lot worse.