CoH ?s

[DarkDryad]

Ok I quit about a month after the launch. So whats new in the hero biz? Worth another look or is it still a treadmill from hell?

[Nebu]

Ok I quit about a month after the launch. So whats new in the hero biz? Worth another look or is it still a treadmill from hell?

I did the same thing and have found myself now playing DAoC and having a great deal more fun.  Go figure!?!?

I'm not sure that I could go back.  The combat system in CoH is outstanding, no question... but I need more depth to retain interest beyond the first month.  I'm interested in seeing a response from those currently active in the game.  

IS there anything worth coming back for???

[Sky]

If you have to ask, don't bother. I've seen no treadmill in the game.

[Alrindel]

If you were bored with the game a month after release, nothing that has been added since will interest you: new high level zones and mobs, some tweaking of the mission system, and additional costume slots.  Gameplay is essentially unchanged.

[kaid]

They added levels 40 to 50 with the zones and missions etc needed to support it. The next big update aimed for oct november will contain some low middle level new zones/mission types as well as capes and some other fancy stuff.

kaid

[Alluvian]

It is foreign to me how one can enjoy the gameplay and complain about a treadmill at the same time.  The only time I even glance at a treadmill is when the gameplay sucks.

And nothing DAOC has had shown any depth in my opinion.  At least nothing that I am interested in.  I can see the draw for the PVP+ crowd.  Probably the best PVP mmog out there after the recent changes.

I can take or leave PVP though.  Does not interest me in mmog type games.  Unless you count planetside.  Then I like it.  That and things like tribes and good old TFC in it's prime.

[Nebu]

It is foreign to me how one can enjoy the gameplay and complain about a treadmill at the same time.  The only time I even glance at a treadmill is when the gameplay sucks.

This is a very valid point.  I think that in my case, achievement also plays a role in my fun.  Granted, we all have different concepts of what's "fun", but when achievement takes a long long time, it can put a damper on the fun inherent to the rest of the game.  

As for depth, I wasn't suggesting even remotely that DAoC was a deep game.  It just has other aspects that CoH is missing.  Crafting, an economy, housing, Pvp (especially pvp), itemization that can be dyed, etc.  CoH is one dimensional, but they do a damn good job in that dimension.  Perhaps I'm also just a sucker for the fantasy setting.  

In any event,  I think Alrindel summed it up for me.

[Xilren's Twin]

It is foreign to me how one can enjoy the gameplay and complain about a treadmill at the same time.  The only time I even glance at a treadmill is when the gameplay sucks.

This is a very valid point.  I think that in my case, achievement also plays a role in my fun.  Granted, we all have different concepts of what's "fun", but when achievement takes a long long time, it can put a damper on the fun inherent to the rest of the game.  

As for depth, I wasn't suggesting even remotely that DAoC was a deep game.  It just has other aspects that CoH is missing.  Crafting, an economy, housing, Pvp (especially pvp), itemization that can be dyed, etc.  CoH is one dimensional, but they do a damn good job in that dimension.  Perhaps I'm also just a sucker for the fantasy setting.

Chalk me up as still playing and enjoying it albeit in a very casual basis.  Took a few weeks off to get back in MTGO and vacationing, but im back in and still completing missions in 30-45 mins spans before work during lunch etc etc.

I'm looking forward to getting more indoor missions of greater variety.  They are the parts I like the most.  Once I get fully kitted out with SO's and have all the powers I want on my storm defender, i'll probably switch to an alt.  Plus, they have so much neat stuff in the pipeline (more enemy and mission types, bases, vehicles, new powersets, archtypes, customizable effects/weapons etc etc ) that even Ill stay subscribed whether im logging 15 hrs a week or 1.

It plays more like a huge single player game since i dont see too many Bat's online when i am and I tend to steer clear of pickup groups, but at the same time i never feel the pressing need to play which is something i distincly felt in games like EQ or SB.  I think CoH might be the first game thats actually too casual for a bulk of current mmorpg addicts.  For me, the pace is fine.

That and I just love flying about blasting shit.  Go Z axis!

Xilren

[geldonyetich]

MMORPGs need highly interactive, fun gameplay.  That's always been my mantra.  

Yet, ironically, I came away from City of Heroes with the thought:

"Sure, the gameplay is fun, but where's the *overall purpose* to it all?"

I guess once I hit level 23 I just couldn't see the point to beating up bad guy after bad guy anymore.  

Oddly enough, this newfound desire for broad-reaching consiquence drove me to Star Wars Galaxies.   The gameplay (read: the combat) isn't nearly as interactive as that of City of Heroes, which I miss, but there's a lot of breadth to the game.   With SWG, I've never found myself asking, "What's the overall purpose to it all".  Maybe it's because SWG's virtual world approach answers those kinds of questions, or maybe it's just because my mindset clicks with what SWG has going on.

So, my new mantra is: MMORPGs need highly interactive, fun gameplay AND relatively longterm consiquence to the player's actions.    

SWG still lacks that "highly interactive, fun gameplay" bit, but I'm holding my breath that JTL and/or the combat revamp may provide this about 3-6 months from now.   By then I should have well established my presense in the game world (a good profession, fine equipment, a well decorated house, millions of credits) and performed all the Planetary exploration I wanted to do.

But yes, CoH is still a pretty stellar game.  I'm missing The Nanites from time to time.   Now there was a cool superhero IMHO.   He wouldn't look good with a cape though...

[schild]

So, my new mantra is: MMORPGs need highly interactive, fun gameplay AND relatively longterm consiquence to the player's actions.

Duh? I've continually said if a game was made with the economics/social design from Galaxies, the combat from CoH, and the story/world of something/place interesting, I would be content. One of my big problems in SWG is A. the lack of people to do stuff with (I don't like making "new friends" a year after a game is out) and B. Houses. Everywhere. As far as the eye can see.

[DarkDryad]

So, my new mantra is: MMORPGs need highly interactive, fun gameplay AND relatively longterm consiquence to the player's actions.

Duh? I've continually said if a game was made with the economics/social design from Galaxies, the combat from CoH, and the story/world of something/place interesting, I would be content. One of my big problems in SWG is A. the lack of people to do stuff with (I don't like making "new friends" a year after a game is out) and B. Houses. Everywhere. As far as the eye can see.

Actually houses are rather sparse as compared to other MMogs with housing. Since player cities came in they have teneded to be in clumps as in outposts etc. The Grimwell guys, a few Morlocks and one or two from here have a PA on Bloodfin and were all doing the BH thing well not all but most. My crafter char (read 2 accts) just hit master WS last night and has turned the grind to armor  now. so were pretty much set for everything. If you decide to give it a whirl again Schild start on Bloodfin and msg Baldrake or Bamik(me) well get ya hooked up. We're averaging about a week and a half to novice BH on folks.

[schild]

If you decide to give it a whirl again Schild start on Bloodfin and msg Baldrake or Bamik(me) well get ya hooked up. We're averaging about a week and a half to novice BH on folks.

Hook me up?

This is my character on Bloodfin.

Naruto Uzumaki.

[kaid]

SWG and COH show flip sides of the development decision coin.

SWG went for the kitchen sink. Huge worlds huge number of places to go long term consequences and a diversity of play styles supported. The downside of this approach is it is really really really hard to polish any of these aspects as much as anybody would like. So after the initial burst they are spending most of their energy going back and retooling aspects to try and make them more fun and exciting.


COH went for a very specific goal. They wanted their combat to be very fun and their world to be tight and focuses on a super heroic feel. They did a great job at what they aimed for and it was quite polished and focused in. They lack the breath and width of experiances games like swg adds. After release their main focus is adding more content and broadening the experiances as time goes on.

It is an interesting call on which will prove the better tactic long term. COH really is the first to try the second path though and they did it well. In an ideal world I would rather the devs not have to choose between them. Give me starwars with freaking coh like fun combat and I would be set for years. But there is a limit to time and money for development of games and at this time I am not sure if there is any company who realistically could do both at once.


Kaid

[AOFanboi]

COH really is the first to try the second path though and they did it well.

Sorry, but A Tale in the Desert's pure crafting gameplay has it beat for firstness. Maybe not mass-market or big-player product, but still.

[Sky]

the story/world of something/place interesting

EQ? I'm a guk lover, I just wish it wasn't located in such a masochistic game...

[ClydeJr]

COH went for a very specific goal. They wanted their combat to be very fun and their world to be tight and focuses on a super heroic feel. They did a great job at what they aimed for and it was quite polished and focused in. They lack the breath and width of experiances games like swg adds. After release their main focus is adding more content and broadening the experiances as time goes on.

Statesman said over at the official boards:

Crafting, as in "make an uber weapon and give it to another superhero", no.

BUT we ARE working on a MAJOR out of combat system that makes perfect sense in super hero world. I'm not quite at the drop the vague hint stage, but I'm close...

He also mentioned that the new system might have to do with the "detective" stuff he's mentioned. So far, I've been damn impressed with the work that Cryptic has done, from the nearly flawless launch to the fun gameplay. Hopefully they can keep this up when they start getting more depth with this new system.

[kaid]

Yup over time COH one way or the other will have to broaden their game experiences and if they take the time and care they took with crafting they will do it well.

And as you have COH broadening their scope you have SWG closing in on finishing their beta of jump to light speed a twitched based space combat game more similar to the fast paced action in COH.

The goal for most of these games eventually is to become the mmrpg nirvana that Schild wants. The paths to getting there are different and the levels of commitment and clue as how to get from point a to point b is also very different from company to company.

kaid

[HaemishM]

I'll make a bold statement.

In 6 months, before the release of City of Villains, City of Heroes will be a hugely different game than that which was released. Granted, you could say that about most MMOG's, but I think in CoH's case, it'll be fun to play, as opposed to say SWG.

The core will still be combat, but there should be a great deal more to do.

[CmdrSlack]

I'm not so sure about the whole purpose or lasting impact effect anymore when it comes to games.  SWG, for a long time, made my actions and whatnot see important.  Then I began to realize that the effect and impact of those actions were really largely in my head and didn't matter much to the average player.  Why?  Because they were out trying to do the same thing.  There were good ideas at one point, there was a lot of potential, but the time investment was too much.  Organizing tons of random gamers, etc. is a ton of work.  

What CoH needs is perhaps a way to have shared experiences that are deep and enthralling.  And some other shit to do in the game would be nice.  Hell, even games as broad as SWG get all kinds of gripes/"needs more to do" complaints.  I've long heard how people wished the gaming tables were more interactive, that you could play Pazzak (or whatever that game is called), etc.

[Sky]

I used to dig playing chess in UO. That was pretty cool.

[Alluvian]

I still say the next expansion for SWG should either be twitch pod racing or SWG according to Hoyle.

The first would be a motor city online sort of 8 - 16 person races that happen on instanced servers.  This server could send data on who is in what place on the field and the actual race itself could be 'simulated' clientside to solve any bandwidth problems.  Server only has to send who is in what place, client has somepathing AI showing them fly around.  When the positions change the client shows one vehicle pass another.  The server could send a crash signal for one of the players and the client could animate  crash at the same time.  This would let others 'watch' without crushing the servers or making the game laggy for the racers.  People could also place bets on these races through an interface available only at the tracks and in player cantinas.  Good social fun for non-racers, lots of parts for crafters to build, etc...

SWG according to hoyle would be a value priced expansion, maybe $20.  In it you have a nice interface for games linked to placable tables in cantinas or in the large JTL spaceships.  Cardgames like pazaac, that cool game they played on the falcon in a new hope, some 3d chess, blackjack, poker, roulette, slots, simple stuff.

And the FREE expansion has to be a total revamp of the combat engine using lessons learned from JTL if it is successful.  If JTL isn't successful I no longer care what SWG does, I won't be there.

[kaid]

Given the people at work I know who spend all day playing stupid card games and poppit online I think the swg hoyle thing would be a huge money maker for them.

Kaid

[jpark]

I think CoH has irreversibly changed the way I look at MMORPGS.  I find it tough to consider any game that cannot match their character creation and CHOICE of abilities.

I am here for the long haul.

[Big Gulp]

I think CoH has irreversibly changed the way I look at MMORPGS.  I find it tough to consider any game that cannot match their character creation and CHOICE of abilities.

I am here for the long haul.

Same here.  Going on over 3 months and I'm still addicted.  What's impressed me most is that so far I've not seen Cryptic really implement any feature in a half-assed manner.  They've added (and are still adding) content by the bushel, beyond what I've seen other games make you buy an expansion for.  Everything they do is just so goddamned polished that they flat-out demand my continued support, even if I weren't playing the game as much as I am.  Oh, and you also get a monthly comic book (that frankly I don't much care about, but hey, it's the thought that counts) with every active account.

I'd also say that I'm in love with the setting.  I've had enough of fantasy (and I've never been a sci-fi fan), and am all about the capes and tights.  It doesn't hurt that I always disliked AD&D, but would crack open Champions at the drop of a hat, though.  So that's where I'm coming from.

[Phred]

I'm letting my subscription run out this Saturday when it comes up for renewal. While I found parts of CoH fun, it eventually got tedious, even the much vaunted fighting got fairly dull and repetitive in the mid 30's on my scrapper, and even sooner on the blaster alt I played after I got bored with my scrapper. Part of the problem is part of what I enjoyed was seeing my character concept evolve, and by the late 30's, even soloing mobs including lt's and bosses 3+ levels above my scrapper, experience moved so slowly it was way too much of a grind just to see what additional slotting of my next power would result in, much less the wait for the next power at 38 (he's 36 now). In a group, I'd either feel useless as blasters destroyed every target in the time it took me to melee down one or the experience would be even slower.

My blaster alt got very tedious even earlier. Mainly because I did so many story arcs with my scrapper, there was nothing new to see or do with the blaster, and once I got do's into his ae powers, I was basically committed to ae'ing, thus hazard zones. It was kind of cool seeing zones I'd avoided on the way up with my scrapper like faultline and dark astoria, but that didn't last long and ultimately it's the same fights over and over. I think the most fun I had was organizing and teaching teams to ae in my low 20's in faultline. After that it just got too tedious to continue.

But then, I tend to play games too much, so hopefully they'll keep the more casual playing crowd a interested a lot longer. I just have a hard time seeing how they will add much more variety to the fights in later expansions. Appearantly the new mobs they've added to the 40-50 expansion are very unpopular because of the plethora of holds and mezzes they dish out. This leads to very binary fights. Either you have a power that allows you to resist these powers or you don't. If you don't you go to the hospital and if you do, you only go to the hospital 5% of the time, thanks to the cap on resists. It's sort of like how my scrapper's fights against rikti or freakshow go. Either he avoids the alpha strike of big blade attacks and lives and wins or they land 2 or 3 blade attacks on him and he dies.

The one thing I've always liked about EQ fights was that there was a feeling that you could recover from a bad situation with skillful use of the various class abilities, like my cleric stunning a mob beating on the enchanter allowing him to get off a mez and get it under control, or a good tank noticing the mob beating on the healer and switching to it to taunt it off. I'm still waiting for a combat system in another game where it doesn't seem so binary, where you know immediately when the mobs are engaged whether you are going to win or not within the first few seconds of the fight.

[jpark]

The one thing I've always liked about EQ fights was that there was a feeling that you could recover from a bad situation with skillful use of the various class abilities, like my cleric stunning a mob beating on the enchanter allowing him to get off a mez and get it under control, or a good tank noticing the mob beating on the healer and switching to it to taunt it off. I'm still waiting for a combat system in another game where it doesn't seem so binary, where you know immediately when the mobs are engaged whether you are going to win or not within the first few seconds of the fight.

I think this is a good point.  As a healer I find health bars pretty binary - in tougher combats, people literally go from zero hp to full health as the villians and I battle for control of their health.  This may relate in part to game mechanic - once someone is stunned - defenses drop - and immediately they take huge damage from the next attack.  

However, I do find we can recover from tough battles. Former EQers (and the like) I think have become "untrained" in CoH because of the ease of most fights early in their careers, and are unprepared to do anything else but "charge" when the fights look tough at the outset.

[Soukyan]

I'm not so sure about the whole purpose or lasting impact effect anymore when it comes to games.  SWG, for a long time, made my actions and whatnot see important.  Then I began to realize that the effect and impact of those actions were really largely in my head and didn't matter much to the average player.  Why?  Because they were out trying to do the same thing.  There were good ideas at one point, there was a lot of potential, but the time investment was too much.  Organizing tons of random gamers, etc. is a ton of work.  

What CoH needs is perhaps a way to have shared experiences that are deep and enthralling.  And some other shit to do in the game would be nice.  Hell, even games as broad as SWG get all kinds of gripes/"needs more to do" complaints.  I've long heard how people wished the gaming tables were more interactive, that you could play Pazzak (or whatever that game is called), etc.

Bingo. I'm not so sure about the whole purpose or lasting impact effect anymore when it comes to games. However, I'm not sure about it in that I am not looking for that in a MMOG. Some of us are pushing for "lifestyle games" where these become an integrated part of our being and others are shying away from that and of course, lots of people who fall between those two categories. The lasting impact caused by MMOGs can be found more readily in real life than it can in the virtual worlds themselves. After all, if you make your avatar sit for 8 hours a day in EQ meditating, the virtual world goes on. If you sit in your chair and do that 8 hours a day, the world goes on as well, but you'll see an effect to be sure.

So how do we capture that in a virtual world and still keep that virtual world fun?

[schild]

So how do we capture that in a virtual world and still keep that virtual world fun?

The closest game (and the farthest) is SWG. The game has all of the core systems to be a fun virtual world, and most of them work. Well, I might add. However, because one of the biggest 3 aspects is completely broken (the big 3 being social, economy and combat - at least to me these are the things I look to immediately), the game fails horribly. Anyway, this may also be the reason I have faith in EQII at least being the next step on the evolutionary ladder. Either way, CoH doesn't have the social aspects or the economies of what I need in a virtual world (which admittedly, CoH is not). Probably the reason I let my sub lapse.

[jpark]

Either way, CoH doesn't have the social aspects or the economies of what I need in a virtual world (which admittedly, CoH is not). Probably the reason I let my sub lapse.

I expect this situation to change.  The metric will be fairly easy to identify - as soon as there becomes a reason to join and rely on a supergoup to achieve some goals.  That doesn't exist yet - but it I think it will.

As for overall purpose I prefer WoW over the EQ genre, but intend to try both EQ2 and WoW.  I  have never understood the "plot" behind EQ.

EDIT:  CoH press release a few days ago now indicates their rapid growth has achieved 180K subs.

[WayAbvPar]

I haven't logged in for a couple of weeks now...the longer I go, the easier it gets to ignore. If there was still a robust SG operating regularly I might find it more interesting, but soloing eventually gets boring, and pick up groups are the bane of my existence.

My renewal date is 8/30; pretty sure I will cancel before then. I have nothing against the game; it was damned fun. I suddenly have a lot more stuff begging for my attention now, so I am not getting any benefit from keeping an active subscription. I will assuredly check it out again if/when CoV comes out, and before then if an especially interesting patch comes out.

[DarkDryad]

If you decide to give it a whirl again Schild start on Bloodfin and msg Baldrake or Bamik(me) well get ya hooked up. We're averaging about a week and a half to novice BH on folks.

Hook me up?

This is my character on Bloodfin.

Naruto Uzumaki.

Dude you should so play with our group.

[Soukyan]

So how do we capture that in a virtual world and still keep that virtual world fun?

The closest game (and the farthest) is SWG. The game has all of the core systems to be a fun virtual world, and most of them work. Well, I might add. However, because one of the biggest 3 aspects is completely broken (the big 3 being social, economy and combat - at least to me these are the things I look to immediately), the game fails horribly. Anyway, this may also be the reason I have faith in EQII at least being the next step on the evolutionary ladder. Either way, CoH doesn't have the social aspects or the economies of what I need in a virtual world (which admittedly, CoH is not). Probably the reason I let my sub lapse.

Is it the closest though? It still lacks "real" ecological systems, damage to the environment by human destruction, true limited resources, societies with differing forms of government and cultural distinctions, the necessity to eat and drink to survive, the necessity to sleep to survive, etc. You get the idea. I'm not saying that CoH is closer, because it is not, but I am addressing the mundane realities that would need to be a part of the virtual world in order to start implementing systems that allow individuals to have a lasting effect on the world. With unlimited resources (they are close with the moving limited resources, very close as a matter of fact), never running out of fuels doesn't become an issue. Perhaps when one resource truly becomes scarce, we might see some player legislation enacted to prevent the abuse of said resource, but of course, you would then need systems in place to enforce the legislation, etc. I suppose this is a whole other topic and has been discussed before at least to some extent.

I believe that the issue preventing a virtual world from truly mimicking reality in terms of purpose and last impact is the issue that most people do not want a direct mirror of reality in these games. Now, it is possible to not mimic our reality in a virtual world and still have a functioning world that can be effected, but it will take some major thought and a lot of development to get there. As you said, SWG is close yet so far away. The goal is to create meaningful gameplay that mitigates the tedium and maximizes the fun. Not impossible, but improbable for some time yet.

[schild]

Dude you should so play with our group.

You gonna pay for me?