Squeenix Press Conference '06

[Velorath]

What?

I'll be the first to admit that the FF series needed change, and in many ways FFXII targeted the correct problems (random battles for instance).  Their solutions though made FFXII the most flawed FF game in recent memory. 

Gameplay-wise it was MMO auto-attack all the way with the exception of the majority of the bosses which I could take out with quickenings.  The only gambits I needed were for attacking the leader's target, and healing when characters got below a certain hp level.  Espers were useless, as was magic other than healing and buffs.  If you bother to do the extra work to get some of the more powerful weapons you will have leveled so much in the process that the game becomes pointlessly easy.  As it was there was very little challenge in the game, most of it coming from the first couple of bosses you face, and even less strategy than earlier FF games (which is saying a lot since the extent of strategy up until this point was cast spells of the element monsters are weak to).

Story-wise the game only had 6 characters to focus on, which is much less than just about every other FF in the past, but the characters end up less fleshed-out than the characters in previous games.  The plot spends most of the time keeping the Empire and the Resistance in a deadlock so your characters have time to roam around through dungeon after dungeon picking up important objects.  That the main villains get little characterization is sadly a standard in the series, but FFXII unfortunately doesn't break the trend.  Having done most of the monster hunts and some of the optional espers, my game time was up to around 90 hours when I finished.  Out of 90 hours, I'd be surprised if even 2% of that was time dedicated to cut-scenes advancing the story.  You can't pace a story like that and have it be compelling in any sort of way.

If you're going to make a Japanese-style RPG (in other words a completely linear RPG that focuses on telling a story) that story needs to be damn good to cover up the shallow gameplay.  I could get a more compelling story out of playing fucking Dig Dug than I got out of FFXII.

[Velorath]

FF12 is the worst in the series since the Playstation era started

Sounds like someone hasn't played X-2.

Nope, I haven't played any FF games other than the main series and FFT/FFTA.  Oh and Mystic Quest but I was too young to know better at the time.

[schild]

Sorry, but gambits are more involved than any MMOG has offered me in the history of the sub-genre. I'm simply not buying your brand of bullshit on that one. If I could explore a fleshed out world with that kind of autoattack instead of the boring bullshit given to me by current MMOGs, things would be a lot more fun. Also, it was the best way to control a party in real time that I could think of. It's nice to be self-sufficient every once in a while also.

There were six main characters because the story wasn't really about them...

If you're going to make a Japanese-style RPG (in other words a completely linear RPG that focuses on telling a story) that story needs to be damn good to cover up the shallow gameplay.  I could get a more compelling story out of playing fucking Dig Dug than I got out of FFXII.

Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. Final Fantasy XII was a huge step away from JRPGs and quite obviously a step toward western design. The control was cleaner than a baldur's gate title and more streamlined. The story - of what there was - was sharp and comparing it to a arcade game is just stupid. There was more story in the first 15 minute cutscene than 90% of the games on the market give you from beginning to end.

I'm not hoisting Final Fantasy on a pedestal here, I just think you're being overly dramatic and need to step back. After the horrible boredom that was Dragon Quest - I'm glad they did everything they did in FFXII. Want to talk about a boring JRPG with a shitty story. Yeesh.

[Strazos]

I don't think the story, on its own, was shitty, but the gameplay in Star Ocean 3 was sleep-inducingly boring. And some of THE worst pacing, ever.

I mean, come on. They give you a level 1 character during the final 25% of the game.

[Velorath]

Sorry, but gambits are more involved than any MMOG has offered me in the history of the sub-genre. I'm simply not buying your brand of bullshit on that one. If I could explore a fleshed out world with that kind of autoattack instead of the boring bullshit given to me by current MMOGs, things would be a lot more fun. Also, it was the best way to control a party in real time that I could think of. It's nice to be self-sufficient every once in a while also.

It's not bullshit.  I literally never bought a single gambit, and only found a handful of them.  The only ones I ever used were "attack leader's target"  and cure gambits for <30 and <70 (for some boss fights).  Sure the Gambit system is great in theory, but the point is I never needed to use them because I could get through the majority of battles with auto-attack with gambits only being used for healing.  I could see the Gambit system being great if they upped the difficulty, made magic more powerful and upgraded the spells more often, made Espers actually useful, and got rid of Quickenings.

Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. Final Fantasy XII was a huge step away from JRPGs and quite obviously a step toward western design. The control was cleaner than a baldur's gate title and more streamlined. The story - of what there was - was sharp and comparing it to a arcade game is just stupid. There was more story in the first 15 minute cutscene than 90% of the games on the market give you from beginning to end.

I'm not hoisting Final Fantasy on a pedestal here, I just think you're being overly dramatic and need to step back. After the horrible boredom that was Dragon Quest - I'm glad they did everything they did in FFXII. Want to talk about a boring JRPG with a shitty story. Yeesh.

Haven't played any of the Dragon Quest games since the Dragon Warrior stuff on the NES.  Even back then they were pretty generic and I never understood why the series was so popular in Japan.  I don't think FFXII was a step toward Western design at all other than the obvious swipe of MMO gameplay.  It's still completely linear gameplay focusing on a story that will turn out exactly the same regardless of how you play.  It's not a matter of me being overly dramatic.  I thought it was a decent enough game, and I appreciate that they tried to make some changes since the JRPG genre is long overdue for them (I haven't really enjoyed playing one since Shadow Hearts: Covenant).  This was mostly a reaction to Fabricated trying to pass this game off as being better than FFVII like it was fact, when in my opinion the only FF game it might be better than is IX.

[Rasix]

This was mostly a reaction to Fabricated trying to pass this game off as being better than FFVII like it was fact, when in my opinion the only FF game it might be better than is IX.

Funny sentence. It's even funnier considering you've gone anti-fanboi rabid in both threads where anyone has dared mention they like the game.

IMO, it's the best one since 6. Obviously there's some sentiment for that here.  But feel free to continue talking to us like we're a bunch of retarded children for thinking that.

[Velorath]

IMO, it's the best one since 6. Obviously there's some sentiment for that here.  But feel free to continue talking to us like we're a bunch of retarded children for thinking that.

Sweet Jesus, does your pussy always hurt anytime someone doesn't like the same game you do?  Like I said the game has a lot of flaws, moreso to me than any FF I've played previously.  That said, I don't lay down my opinion as fact like Fabricated did.  It great if people enjoyed it, but 'best FF evar, end of discussion' shit I find annoying.

[Strazos]

What's the point in even arguing over which is "best"? That's not only extremely subjective, but the debate also has no real bearing on the game itself. Does FF7 being better or worse than XII in any way make XII a different game?

Nope.

[Margalis]

X-2 is clearly the best, followed by 2. Those were two gems.

[Rasix]

X-2 is clearly the best, followed by 2. Those were two gems.

FF Legends 3 was da-bomb.

[Strazos]

Two words:


Mystic. Quest.

[Velorath]

Two words:


Mystic. Quest.

The worst part was that it was called Final Fantasy USA in Japan if I'm not mistaken.  It's like they were flat out saying "look at this dumbed down piece of shit we had to develop for those guys".  That said, I actually bought it and played it through to completion when it came out.

[Strazos]

I completed it on a rental. Twice.

The game actually isn't That bad when you're like...10. Also, elemental weaknesses in that game were sweet.

[Kitsune]

FF7 is mediocre compared to FF6, but it sold a million zillion copies and provided the story that has had the most staying power in the gamers' consciousness, so I still consider it to be the pinnacle of the series.

(I would stomp my disks for 7 into plastic slivers if it'd make them remake 6 with modern graphics.  In a heartbeat.)

FF6 > FF7 > All later FFs.  Especially 8, 10-2, and 11, which should be thrown into a very deep pit with nuclear waste.
Secret of Mana > All the later Seiken Densetsu games.
Chrono Trigger > Chrono Cross
Xenogears > Xenosaga

I can't speak to the Dragon Quest series, but I still don't consider that line to really belong to Square.

[Yegolev]

Opinions!  Yay!

4, 12, 6, 7, etc.

I am having a lot of fun with XII, but I'm one of those people that has always concentrated more on the combat than the story.  I also like collecting things.

[Fabricated]

IMO, it's the best one since 6. Obviously there's some sentiment for that here.  But feel free to continue talking to us like we're a bunch of retarded children for thinking that.

Sweet Jesus, does your pussy always hurt anytime someone doesn't like the same game you do?  Like I said the game has a lot of flaws, moreso to me than any FF I've played previously.  That said, I don't lay down my opinion as fact like Fabricated did.  It great if people enjoyed it, but 'best FF evar, end of discussion' shit I find annoying.

I'm confused. I can get not digging the role of FF12's protagonists ("Okay, everyone else is busy advancing the plot...let's go plunder another one of my ancestors tombs!"), but complaining about the use of an optional, free form system makes...no sense really.

FF8 annoyed me since you could pretty much break the game 20 minutes into it thanks to the awful junction system. Get the item->healing spell skill, buy a bunch of tents, convert to Curaga, junction to HP, and boom, level nothing characters with like 5000HP. Thing is though, I don't HAVE to do that. It's a dumb system because I can, but if I want more difficulty I can just not bend the game over.

If Gambits are dumb, turn them off. FF12 is still the best post 16-bit entry in the series as far as I'm concerned (FF6 ranks higher just due to pure fanboyism on my part), but I hated the plots of 7 and 8. Why everyone despised 9 I have no clue.

[Velorath]

If Gambits are dumb, turn them off. FF12 is still the best post 16-bit entry in the series as far as I'm concerned (FF6 ranks higher just due to pure fanboyism on my part), but I hated the plots of 7 and 8. Why everyone despised 9 I have no clue.

Gambits aren't dumb.  I wish MMO's would have something like that set up when I don't feel like grouping.  If they add it into FFXI there would be a 2% chance that I might actually get up the desire to try it again.  The problem is that the game was rarely challenging enough for me to need to do anything other than auto-attack, cure, and use quickenings (and I didn't even get the Zodiac spear or anything).  I thought that first boss fight against the flaming horse was one of the most challenging fights I'd ever been through in an FF game, and I wished the challenge had stayed that consistent throughout the rest of the game.  Then I probably would have needed to take full advantage of the gambit system.  The game just never put me in a position where I felt like I'd benifit from using it much.

[Rasix]

This is just a point of curiosity, but did you do all of the clan hunts and optional boss fights (without hyper leveled characters)?  Some of those could be challenging.  If you didn't set up some good gambits, you'd be pausing it every single turn (and possibly not reacting fast enough to alpha strikes/debilitating status effects).

[Yegolev]

I don't have good gambits set up, but I like pausing to give orders and swapping people out and switching weapons and the midget and the broom and whatnot.  I also have run into one or two irritating hunts and mostly just stick to advancing the story.  Things are getting easy but I am just going to advance the plot instead of start working my way down Zertinan caverns or something.

That optional earth dragon was pretty challenging, and I had to work to take down the forest dragon, but yeah, that first boss was tougher than any of them.

[MrHat]

The forest dragon had me stumped for a couple weeks (I only play a few hours a week though).  So I went around and did hunts.  I'm enjoying it so far.

[Miasma]

Since the system tells you what the enemy is casting you can swap in/out the resist gear as needed so that all those damn special effects can't take hold.  There was one fight in a high level hunt where I had to constantly swap in Mirror Mail for all of my characters to get reflect up because he kept spamming stuff like disable and sleep.  The only problem is that he had a ton of hit points and sometimes I would forget to take off the mirror mail, cast renew on myself, it would be reflected, and do a full heal on the damn boss...

If one of your characters gets hit with confuse you can unequip their weapon too, not only will they do less damage but it resets their attack meter.

[Margalis]

Complaining about exploits in a single-player game is pretty stupid. If you want the game to be challenging, don't use the exploits. If pausing every turn makes it too easy then don't pause every turn.

I have no sympathy for people who purposely make the game less fun for themselves and then complain about it. Why are you power-gaming a single-player game again?

Super Mario Brothers is a lot less fun if you hit yourself in the head with a hammer while playing.

[Miasma]

I wasn't complaining, those were tips, I like that I can do that if I feel the need.  One of the main things that turn me off of some games are all the annoying status effects.  Self -> Esuna gambit solves most of that and is one of the reasons why I enjoyed FFXII combat so much.

[Strazos]

Status effects are Supposed to be annoying. Somehow, I don't think the system is working as intended if you can swap equipment while in combat to change status like that.

[Rasix]

Status effects are Supposed to be annoying. Somehow, I don't think the system is working as intended if you can swap equipment while in combat to change status like that.

You can change it to prevent a status effect from happening. You can't equip a piece of equipment and have it nullify a current status effect.

Not having swappable equipment in battle would have been ass.  There's plenty of bosses where one type of element is going to be healing the boss.  Plus, it's nice to go melee or ranged.  Ranged is a lot better on certain bosses to avoid having your entire party being hit by an AOE.

[Trippy]

Since the system tells you what the enemy is casting you can swap in/out the resist gear as needed so that all those damn special effects can't take hold.  There was one fight in a high level hunt where I had to constantly swap in Mirror Mail for all of my characters to get reflect up because he kept spamming stuff like disable and sleep.  The only problem is that he had a ton of hit points and sometimes I would forget to take off the mirror mail, cast renew on myself, it would be reflected, and do a full heal on the damn boss...

That's what the Opal Rings are for.

[Velorath]

This is just a point of curiosity, but did you do all of the clan hunts and optional boss fights (without hyper leveled characters)?  Some of those could be challenging.  If you didn't set up some good gambits, you'd be pausing it every single turn (and possibly not reacting fast enough to alpha strikes/debilitating status effects).

I did all but 8-10 of the clan hunts, and about half the esper fights.  The ones I didn't do are the ones that (from looking at guides on Gamefaqs, which I did mostly to find out the clan mobs locations/spawn conditions) seemed like they were higher level encounters than the final boss.  I didn't want to level to the point of making the last fight trivial.  There were some bosses that use a lot of status effects, confuse typically being the worst of them, but they were few enough and far enough between that setting up gambits didn't seem to be worth the effort to me.

[Miasma]

Since the system tells you what the enemy is casting you can swap in/out the resist gear as needed so that all those damn special effects can't take hold.  There was one fight in a high level hunt where I had to constantly swap in Mirror Mail for all of my characters to get reflect up because he kept spamming stuff like disable and sleep.  The only problem is that he had a ton of hit points and sometimes I would forget to take off the mirror mail, cast renew on myself, it would be reflected, and do a full heal on the damn boss...

That's what the Opal Rings are for.

Ah, but I needed to keep the bubble belt on to double my HP as he was doing thousands of damage at a time, if I swapped it out for the Opal Ring my HP would have been cut in half.

[Yegolev]

You know, the "single-player game exploit" thing is something I like.  It's optional in the scenarios that I like it, like Daggerfall for example.  Something I had fun with was making a high elf, which are immune to paralysis, and giving him a critical weakness to paralysis.  He'd still be immune and I'd have a large amount of room to stack bonuses without crippling the XP multiplier.

I also remember that I managed to have all four characters with dual imp halberds in FFVI.  I had at least one attack twice per round, maybe all of them did; it's been a while.  That was a real atrocity.

The above is why I like the combat in Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga so much.  It has that sort of weakness-exploitation and tricking built into the system, and it's also difficult enough that if you drop the ball in a fight you are likely to be fucked.

[Rasix]

Ah, but I needed to keep the bubble belt on to double my HP as he was doing thousands of damage at a time, if I swapped it out for the Opal Ring my HP would have been cut in half.

For those type of fights, I give my melee buffer gambit guy an Ally Any -> Bubble gambit.  This is the person that's responsible for keeping everyone hasted and the leader with Bravery.

Just make sure your meat shield has the bubble belt and have someone handy with an Ally Any -> Remedy gambit.