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Author Topic: Best. News. Ever.  (Read 33651 times)
Snowspinner
Terracotta Army
Posts: 206


on: March 21, 2004, 10:08:00 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/21/yassin/index.html">Except for, like, every other bit of news ever.

Do we still need to provide commentary on links?

If so, does "Shit, now a lot of people are going to die" count?

I will bellow like the thunder drum, invoke the storm of war
A twisting pillar spun of dust and blood up from the prairie floor
I will sweep the foe before me like a gale out on the snow
And the wind will long recount the story, reverence and glory, when I go
koboshi
Contributor
Posts: 304

Camping is a legitimate strategy.


Reply #1 on: March 21, 2004, 10:36:03 PM

Can some Zionist explain why the hell this was a smart move?  (I swear to your god if you say "he hit me first" I’m just going to ignore it)  Seriously, the Israeli government has no chance of winning an all out war.  And don’t tell me about their air force with all its smart bombs cause they don’t compare to the stockpiles of "Palestinian smart bombs".  Well, I should restate that, the Israeli government might win but the Israeli people will all be dead.  So why kill the face of the organization.  Fuck, kill everyone but him and take a picture of his face when he calls for jihad and there is no one there to answer.

-We must teach them Max!
Hey, where do you keep that gun?
-None of your damn business, Sam.
-Shall we dance?
-Lets!
Mediocre
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Reply #2 on: March 21, 2004, 10:37:08 PM

I came here to post this, actually.

And Drudge has a picture of a giant bloodstain, an arm, and a wheelchair where the spiritual leader to millions used to be.

Gotta love integrity; I'm Jewish, so I have obvious (though not very strong) biases in this one, but posting pictures of his remains is more than a bit past the line, IMO.  It'd be like if we drew and quartered Jerry Falwell on webcam.


Sharon is a fucking moron.
Mediocre
Guest


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Reply #3 on: March 21, 2004, 10:41:35 PM

Quote from: koboshi
Can some Zionist explain why the hell this was a smart move?  (I swear to your god if you say "he hit me first" I’m just going to ignore it)  Seriously, the Israeli government has no chance of winning an all out war.  And don’t tell me about their air force with all its smart bombs cause they don’t compare to the stockpiles of "Palestinian smart bombs".  Well, I should restate that, the Israeli government might win but the Israeli people will all be dead.  So why kill the face of the organization.  Fuck, kill everyone but him and take a picture of his face when he calls for jihad and there is no one there to answer.


As it stands now, Israel could wipe the floor with the entire region if it wanted to.  I'm not entirely sure that's a good thing, but get one thing straight, Israel isn't going to lose any wars in the near future.

This was, however, a really fucking stupid move on their part.
koboshi
Contributor
Posts: 304

Camping is a legitimate strategy.


Reply #4 on: March 21, 2004, 11:24:58 PM

Quote from: Mediocre
As it stands now, Israel could wipe the floor with the entire region if it wanted to.


yea but I consider a militery action a failure if even one busload of civilians die.

-We must teach them Max!
Hey, where do you keep that gun?
-None of your damn business, Sam.
-Shall we dance?
-Lets!
Disco Stu
Delinquents
Posts: 91


Reply #5 on: March 21, 2004, 11:29:44 PM

Quote from: koboshi
Quote from: Mediocre
As it stands now, Israel could wipe the floor with the entire region if it wanted to.


yea but I consider a militery action a failure if even one busload of civilians die.


So every military action in history was a failure? Interesting view point.
koboshi
Contributor
Posts: 304

Camping is a legitimate strategy.


Reply #6 on: March 21, 2004, 11:34:03 PM

Quote from: Disco Stu
Quote from: koboshi
Quote from: Mediocre
As it stands now, Israel could wipe the floor with the entire region if it wanted to.


yea but I consider a militery action a failure if even one busload of civilians die.


So every military action in history was a failure? Interesting view point.


and not a new one.

But my point was, this isn’t a war where some civilian dies because of a stray bullet.  The civilians are the target of the attacks as well as the rounds fired from the chamber.  If there is only one terrorist left alive after the army carpet bombs the entire Middle East (especially if only one is left) they are going to kill 20 or so civilians at the least, or to put it another way a busload. And your military isn’t shit if it can’t protect its people.  With all this in mind I’m simply saying Israel (and the US while were at it) should bitch-slap whatever general still thinks they have the military might to “wipe the floor” with them and remind them why the military exists; to make the lives of the people safer.

-We must teach them Max!
Hey, where do you keep that gun?
-None of your damn business, Sam.
-Shall we dance?
-Lets!
Foix
Terracotta Army
Posts: 54


Reply #7 on: March 22, 2004, 02:14:15 AM

Like everyone else, I imagine, I am a little confused by why the Israelis killed this man.

He himself was obviously not a direct threat to the security of Israel: he wouldn't be carrying out any suicide bombings from his wheelchair. Nor does it seem likely that killing him (versus not killing him) will result in fewer Israeli civilian deaths in the future; as Snowspinner pointed out, quite the contrary. Furthermore, the rule of law in Israel is hardly strengthened by an act that is little different from the indiscriminately murderous 'justice' practiced by the terrorists themselves.

It has already been demonstrated numerous times that the Israeli government places no value on the lives of Palestinian civilians--not that Palestinian terrorists place any value on the lives of Israeli civilians, save as targets--but a move like this makes me think that they don't place a hell of a lot of value on the lives of their own. Rather, it seems like this assassination was intended to 'prove a point,' regardless of the repurcussions it will have. Does anyone consider any of them to be positive?

Eventually, of course, one side or the other will tire of the endless strife and bloodshed, or perhaps will be wiped out entirely. Only then will there be any sort of final peace, because neither seems to have any apparent desire to do anything other than trade attack and counterattack ad infinitum. I imagine we'll have to wait for the rise of the next generation of Israeli and Palestinian leaders if we want to see any modicum of change; the powers-that-be seems to be happy in their homicidal rut.
Monika T'Sarn
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Posts: 63


Reply #8 on: March 22, 2004, 03:28:27 AM

I do not really understand the problem everybody has with this.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. Their goal is the destruction of Israel. They use suicide attacks to achieve this goal.

If the palastinians cannot deal with them on their own, Isreal has to do it. They can't really go in with their army and arrest them - that would be total war and cause even more losses.
Under those circumstances, killing every single member of Hamas is perfectly fine with me - do it either until they change their position and negotiate, or until none is left. Starting the killing from the top is a good thing - it punishes those really responsible instead of some stupid followers, it has more chance to disturb their planning, so it will prevent further attacks.
Yes, there are civilian losses caused by this. That's not the fault of the Israelis - its the fault of Hamas and the Palestinian authority for not dealing with them.

Oh, btw - if there really was total war, if Isreal wanted to kill every single palestinian, of course they could, and nobody could stop them.

Monika T'Sarn
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Reply #9 on: March 22, 2004, 04:19:31 AM

Quote from: Monika T'Sarn
I do not really understand the problem everybody has with this.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. Their goal is the destruction of Israel. They use suicide attacks to achieve this goal.

If the palastinians cannot deal with them on their own, Isreal has to do it. They can't really go in with their army and arrest them - that would be total war and cause even more losses.
Under those circumstances, killing every single member of Hamas is perfectly fine with me - do it either until they change their position and negotiate, or until none is left. Starting the killing from the top is a good thing - it punishes those really responsible instead of some stupid followers, it has more chance to disturb their planning, so it will prevent further attacks.
Yes, there are civilian losses caused by this. That's not the fault of the Israelis - its the fault of Hamas and the Palestinian authority for not dealing with them.

Oh, btw - if there really was total war, if Isreal wanted to kill every single palestinian, of course they could, and nobody could stop them.


And nobody knows how to deal with terrorists better than Sharon.

I don't see the big difference between the two groups.

They both kill each other, they are both entitled to the same piece of land; they both have divine guidance and are infallible before the eyes of their respective gods.

Israel kills Palestinian civilians because they might become suicide bombers.
Palestinians kill Israeli civilians because they either have been or will be in the armed forces.
Actually, that's not quite true - they both target civilians because they can, and because it spreads fear.

Israel uses its army - because they have one. Palestinians don't have an army, and use suicide bombers because it is the most efficient way to get their message across (we're willing to kill ourselves to get the land we're entitled to back and we're unafraid because we have absolutely nothing to lose).

The leaders of both factions are hypocritical lying bastards who thrive on the conflict.

They probably won't wipe each other out - which is why I think someone should take the responsibility and do it for them.
Monika T'Sarn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 63


Reply #10 on: March 22, 2004, 05:06:22 AM

I don't see the big difference between the two, US and Al Queida

They both kill each other, they are both entitled to rule the world; they both have divine guidance and are infallible before the eyes of their respective gods.

The US  kills Afghan and Iraqi civilians because they might become suicide hijackers.
Al Queida kill US civilians because they either have been or will be in the armed forces.
Actually, that's not quite true - they both target civilians because they can, and because it spreads fear.

The US uses its army - because they have one. Al queida don't have an army, and use suicide hijackers because it is the most efficient way to get their message across (we're willing to kill ourselves to get what we want and we're unafraid because we have absolutely nothing to lose).

Monika T'Sarn
The Combine
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ClumsyOaf
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Reply #11 on: March 22, 2004, 05:31:41 AM

Quote from: Monika T'Sarn
I don't see the big difference between the two, US and Al Queida

They both kill each other, they are both entitled to rule the world; they both have divine guidance and are infallible before the eyes of their respective gods.

The US  kills Afghan and Iraqi civilians because they might become suicide hijackers.
Al Queida kill US civilians because they either have been or will be in the armed forces.
Actually, that's not quite true - they both target civilians because they can, and because it spreads fear.

The US uses its army - because they have one. Al queida don't have an army, and use suicide hijackers because it is the most efficient way to get their message across (we're willing to kill ourselves to get what we want and we're unafraid because we have absolutely nothing to lose).


See? We agree!

You forgot this one though:

The leaders of both factions are hypocritical lying bastards who thrive on the conflict.

Edit: But I didn't know the US had mandatory military service, like Israel.
shiznitz
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the plural of mangina


Reply #12 on: March 22, 2004, 08:55:11 AM

If you can kill the leaders of your enemy, do it. In this case, martyrdom of the leader shouldn't be a concern since Hamas is already full of fanatics and they treat the suicide bombers as martyrs already. I am not arguing that killing this guy will resolve the conflict, just that it is a logical move.

I have never played WoW.
Snowspinner
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Posts: 206


Reply #13 on: March 22, 2004, 09:42:38 AM

Why, exactly, is it logical to kill someone when there is no material gain to be had from it?

And when, in fact, there is a material loss, since Hamas is not just a terrorist organization but also a social organization devoted to helping Palestinians out, which is part of why they are so widely popular with the Palestinians? Thus, to many Palestinians, this is not entirely unlike whacking Mother Theresa with a LAW. Admittedly, in this case Mother Theresa blows up people on the side, but that doesn't really hurt her appeal any with the demographic in question.

So, I mean, sure, I can see why Israel isn't fond of the guy, but WHAT THE HELL DO THEY HAVE TO GAIN BY HITTING HIM WITH A FUCKING ROCKET?

I will bellow like the thunder drum, invoke the storm of war
A twisting pillar spun of dust and blood up from the prairie floor
I will sweep the foe before me like a gale out on the snow
And the wind will long recount the story, reverence and glory, when I go
ArtificialKid
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Posts: 113


Reply #14 on: March 22, 2004, 10:19:58 AM

Quote from: Snowspinner
WHAT THE HELL DO THEY HAVE TO GAIN BY HITTING HIM WITH A FUCKING ROCKET?


"Fuck with us and get a rocket in the ass"?
WayAbvPar
Moderator
Posts: 19268


Reply #15 on: March 22, 2004, 10:27:05 AM

Quote
It'd be like if we drew and quartered Jerry Falwell on webcam.


Make sure to include a Paypal link- I am in for $20.


The instant Yassin planned and/or actively participated in a terrorist act, he lost his untouchable status. While I agree that this is going to cause a backlash, I can't really mourn the loss of a terrorist leader.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
personman
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Posts: 380


Reply #16 on: March 22, 2004, 10:27:27 AM

Hamas declared open war on Israel within the last year.  Before that time Hamas were content to publically say nasty things while quietly paying other organizations to do the killing.

Not mentioned so far is that Hamas used this opportunity to declare upon the USA.  Up until they were smart enough not to do so.  So already Yassin's assassination is having the desired effect - it is weakening Hamas leadership.  This is a declared war and strategic leaders are always fair game.

I doubt Sharon was in the decision loop on the decision to fire the missile.  But I don't doubt it pleased him greatly - he was under external pressure to put on the appearance of peaceful resolution and in the process was being bled politically.  Now he can go back to doing what he does best, playing the heavy.

It also gives the Palestinian moderates political cover to keep Israeli security in the occupied regions - the prospect of being completely exposed to their internal warlords and mobsters didn't seem to be worth the price of Israeli withdrawal.
Snowspinner
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Posts: 206


Reply #17 on: March 22, 2004, 10:27:49 AM

Quote from: ArtificialKid
Quote from: Snowspinner
WHAT THE HELL DO THEY HAVE TO GAIN BY HITTING HIM WITH A FUCKING ROCKET?


"Fuck with us and get a rocket in the ass"?


I think the bit where they repeatedly bulldozed suicide bombers' homes made that point already.

I will bellow like the thunder drum, invoke the storm of war
A twisting pillar spun of dust and blood up from the prairie floor
I will sweep the foe before me like a gale out on the snow
And the wind will long recount the story, reverence and glory, when I go
Flashman
Terracotta Army
Posts: 185


Reply #18 on: March 22, 2004, 10:32:50 AM

They were doing him a favor:

Yassin: "The day in which I will die as a shahid [martyr] will be the happiest day of my life."

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP0398

A mutually benficial transaction, I'd say.
ArtificialKid
Terracotta Army
Posts: 113


Reply #19 on: March 22, 2004, 10:55:54 AM

Quote from: Snowspinner
Quote from: ArtificialKid
Quote from: Snowspinner
WHAT THE HELL DO THEY HAVE TO GAIN BY HITTING HIM WITH A FUCKING ROCKET?


"Fuck with us and get a rocket in the ass"?


I think the bit where they repeatedly bulldozed suicide bombers' homes made that point already.


"Fuck with us and your family will be homeless and on the street" is a different point though.
Snowspinner
Terracotta Army
Posts: 206


Reply #20 on: March 22, 2004, 11:04:22 AM

Quote from: ArtificialKid
Quote from: Snowspinner
Quote from: ArtificialKid
Quote from: Snowspinner
WHAT THE HELL DO THEY HAVE TO GAIN BY HITTING HIM WITH A FUCKING ROCKET?


"Fuck with us and get a rocket in the ass"?


I think the bit where they repeatedly bulldozed suicide bombers' homes made that point already.


"Fuck with us and your family will be homeless and on the street" is a different point though.


See, but it's probably the much more effective one. You have to figure that a suicide bomber's first priority is probably not his own well-being. What with the explosives strapped to his chest and all.

I will bellow like the thunder drum, invoke the storm of war
A twisting pillar spun of dust and blood up from the prairie floor
I will sweep the foe before me like a gale out on the snow
And the wind will long recount the story, reverence and glory, when I go
DarkDryad
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Posts: 556

da hizzookup


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Reply #21 on: March 22, 2004, 11:05:28 AM

Quote from: Monika T'Sarn
I don't see the big difference between the two, US and Al Queida

They both kill each other, they are both entitled to rule the world; they both have divine guidance and are infallible before the eyes of their respective gods.

The US  kills Afghan and Iraqi civilians because they might become suicide hijackers.
Al Queida kill US civilians because they either have been or will be in the armed forces.
Actually, that's not quite true - they both target civilians because they can, and because it spreads fear.

The US uses its army - because they have one. Al queida don't have an army, and use suicide hijackers because it is the most efficient way to get their message across (we're willing to kill ourselves to get what we want and we're unafraid because we have absolutely nothing to lose).


Cept for the tiny fact that the US does not intentionaly target civilians and all. Pesky lil detail there but one that needs to be mentioned.

BWL is funny tho.  It's like watching a Special Needs school take a field trip to a minefield.
Snowspinner
Terracotta Army
Posts: 206


Reply #22 on: March 22, 2004, 11:18:45 AM

Quote from: DarkDryad
Quote from: Monika T'Sarn
I don't see the big difference between the two, US and Al Queida

They both kill each other, they are both entitled to rule the world; they both have divine guidance and are infallible before the eyes of their respective gods.

The US  kills Afghan and Iraqi civilians because they might become suicide hijackers.
Al Queida kill US civilians because they either have been or will be in the armed forces.
Actually, that's not quite true - they both target civilians because they can, and because it spreads fear.

The US uses its army - because they have one. Al queida don't have an army, and use suicide hijackers because it is the most efficient way to get their message across (we're willing to kill ourselves to get what we want and we're unafraid because we have absolutely nothing to lose).


Cept for the tiny fact that the US does not intentionaly target civilians and all. Pesky lil detail there but one that needs to be mentioned.


To save time, these were the examples offered last time this claim was made:

Mai Lai
Wounded Knee
Nagasaki
Hiroshima
Dresden
That wedding in Afghanistan

I'll go ahead and add to that any number of times in which we've targeted something knowing that civilian casualties were unavoidable.

I will bellow like the thunder drum, invoke the storm of war
A twisting pillar spun of dust and blood up from the prairie floor
I will sweep the foe before me like a gale out on the snow
And the wind will long recount the story, reverence and glory, when I go
Nosartur
Developers
Posts: 33

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #23 on: March 22, 2004, 11:57:14 AM

The only one on that list that is even close is Mai Lai and that Fuckwad LT got court martialed. I think they should of hung him but that is besides the point. He wasn't acting on orders from up high he just took it on himself to eradicate a village.

Wounded Knee is what 150 years ago. Also how many civilians did the American Indians happen to massacre through out that period. They are not exactly innocent.

Nagasaki, Hiroshima, and Dresden were all valid military targets and their destruction saved lives in the end. These were also fought in a time period where it was impossible to hit a single target reliably from the air. So carpet bombing was the only recourse. There is a new book about Dresden that dispels many of the false accusations that have been made over the years.

The wedding in Afghanistan was more of a friendly fire type of incident. Yes it sucks but the pilots were not trying to kill civilians they thought they were being fired on and had all of about 1/2 a second to make a decision. It was the wrong one but you do not punish those kind of decisions unless they become habitual.

So out of your whole list you get one semi-valid incident
Amp
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Reply #24 on: March 22, 2004, 12:17:44 PM

Quote from: shiznitz
If you can kill the leaders of your enemy, do it. In this case, martyrdom of the leader shouldn't be a concern since Hamas is already full of fanatics and they treat the suicide bombers as martyrs already. I am not arguing that killing this guy will resolve the conflict, just that it is a logical move.


This is a great move by Israel.  It gets the Pals worked up enough to start acting before thinking, which means more suicide bombs, which means more worldly support for that wall they are building to keep those suicide bombers out..
Smart .  Asshole but smart.

This space for rent.
HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 42628

the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring


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Reply #25 on: March 22, 2004, 12:31:43 PM

First off, from all I know about the grease stain that used to be a cleric, he was a bloody murderer, incited tons of civilians and non-militants to jihad themselves against civilian targets and was indirectly responsible for a shitton of deaths. So I will shed no tears that he is gone.

On the other hand, Hamas has been waging a battle to "win the hearts and minds" of Palestinians everywhere, doing a better job of providing social services than the goddamn official Palestinian government. From a political/diplomatic standpoint, this was fucking stupid as hell, because there's nothing to incite a populace against you than to create a goddamn martyr out of a "defenseless man in a wheelchair."

It also goes to show why Israelis earn the term "hardcore motherfuckers."

EDIT: Snowspinner, you are a dumb motherfucker, but a good troll.

The wedding in Afghanistan was in no way, shape or form "the US DELIBERATELY trying to attack civilian targets" as the original poster was speaking of. Note the word deliberate. It was an accident.

Dresden was also a British operation.

Nagasaki and Hiroshima do sort of validate your point. Of course, they were done before the signing of the Geneva Convention. Not targeting civilians in war is generally a post-WWII concept.

Snowspinner
Terracotta Army
Posts: 206


Reply #26 on: March 22, 2004, 12:35:37 PM

Quote from: Nosartur


Nagasaki, Hiroshima, and Dresden were all valid military targets and their destruction saved lives in the end.


There were valid military targets in all three cities, yes.

The cities at large were not valid military targets. And the scope of all three attacks were such that the city at large was clearly being targetted.

I will bellow like the thunder drum, invoke the storm of war
A twisting pillar spun of dust and blood up from the prairie floor
I will sweep the foe before me like a gale out on the snow
And the wind will long recount the story, reverence and glory, when I go
Snowspinner
Terracotta Army
Posts: 206


Reply #27 on: March 22, 2004, 12:39:26 PM

Quote from: Amp
Quote from: shiznitz
If you can kill the leaders of your enemy, do it. In this case, martyrdom of the leader shouldn't be a concern since Hamas is already full of fanatics and they treat the suicide bombers as martyrs already. I am not arguing that killing this guy will resolve the conflict, just that it is a logical move.


This is a great move by Israel.  It gets the Pals worked up enough to start acting before thinking, which means more suicide bombs, which means more worldly support for that wall they are building to keep those suicide bombers out..
Smart .  Asshole but smart.


See, here's the thing - at this point, the international community at large is on the side of the Palestinians. Which is why everybody but the US immediately condemned this attack. I mean, nobody outside of the US is really going to fault the Palestinians for blowing the fuck out of Israel now.

Because outside of the US, the international community is of the opinion that Israel is totally in the wrong on this.

I will bellow like the thunder drum, invoke the storm of war
A twisting pillar spun of dust and blood up from the prairie floor
I will sweep the foe before me like a gale out on the snow
And the wind will long recount the story, reverence and glory, when I go
Amp
Terracotta Army
Posts: 80


Reply #28 on: March 22, 2004, 12:48:54 PM

I agree totally.
But how long do you think it will take the world to forget about this killing, after being flooded with image after image of people dieing in Israel in the coming month or so.
I mean I can't see any other smart motivation for this knowing the backlash it will cause them.

This space for rent.
Snowspinner
Terracotta Army
Posts: 206


Reply #29 on: March 22, 2004, 12:52:56 PM

Quote from: Amp
I agree totally.
But how long do you think it will take the world to forget about this killing, after being flooded with image after image of people dieing in Israel in the coming month or so.
I mean I can't see any other smart motivation for this knowing the backlash it will cause them.


Your mistake, I think, is assuming a smart motivation.

I will bellow like the thunder drum, invoke the storm of war
A twisting pillar spun of dust and blood up from the prairie floor
I will sweep the foe before me like a gale out on the snow
And the wind will long recount the story, reverence and glory, when I go
HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 42628

the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring


WWW
Reply #30 on: March 22, 2004, 12:59:53 PM

Quote from: Amp
But how long do you think it will take the world to forget about this killing, after being flooded with image after image of people dieing in Israel in the coming month or so.


You assume the vast majority of the world gives a shit about more Jews being torched. In the Muslim world, those images will be cheered. In some of the more facist circles in Europe, of which there are a number, the best it will elict is a le /sigh.

koboshi
Contributor
Posts: 304

Camping is a legitimate strategy.


Reply #31 on: March 22, 2004, 01:33:10 PM

Quote from: Monika T'Sarn
I do not really understand the problem everybody has with this.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. Their goal is the destruction of Israel. They use suicide attacks to achieve this goal.

If the palastinians cannot deal with them on their own, Isreal has to do it. They can't really go in with their army and arrest them - that would be total war and cause even more losses.
Under those circumstances, killing every single member of Hamas is perfectly fine with me - do it either until they change their position and negotiate, or until none is left. Starting the killing from the top is a good thing - it punishes those really responsible instead of some stupid followers, it has more chance to disturb their planning, so it will prevent further attacks


To kill this man in order to kill Hamas is like killing a rattlesnake by stepping on its noisy tail. The snake is just fine, it’s just pissed now.


Quote from: Monika T'Sarn
Oh, btw - if there really was total war, if Isreal wanted to kill every single palestinian, of course they could, and nobody could stop them.


Quote from: koboshi
With all this in mind I’m simply saying Israel (and the US while were at it) should bitch-slap whatever general still thinks they have the military might to “wipe the floor” with {the Middle East} and remind them why the military exists; to make the lives of the people safer.


I should take my own advice and ignore the generals for now and start from [Bitch-Slap="Monika T'Sarn"] the bottom [/bitch-slap]

-We must teach them Max!
Hey, where do you keep that gun?
-None of your damn business, Sam.
-Shall we dance?
-Lets!
Nosartur
Developers
Posts: 33

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #32 on: March 22, 2004, 01:35:36 PM

Snow you are applying the technology of today in fighting a war to the way wars were fought 60 years ago.  It doesn't work that way.  

ANyway back to the topic.  Yeah most of the world has sided with the Palestinians for a number of years no matter how many Jewish civilians are blown up while eating pizza or while they try to overthrow the legitamate governments of neighboring countries, Lebanon and Jordan.  The Holocaust has been greatly forgotten in most of the world and in some circles it is even argued that it never occurred.  Those circles are not even the sole property of the right wing tinfoil hat brigade.  It is a position that is staked out by valid candidates in certian political parties around the world.
Mesozoic
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Posts: 1359


Reply #33 on: March 22, 2004, 01:41:31 PM

Quote
Palestinians kill Israeli civilians because they either have been or will be in the armed forces.


Nitpicking, but not true.  They would still use suicide bombers if Israel had an American-style volunteer army.   The point is...eh.. terror.  As in, we can hit you anytime, anywhere, as long as you continue to fuck with us.  Still very analagous to the "lesson" that Israel is trying to teach.  

At any other point in human history, these two sides would have gone at it in all out war, a massive loss of life would have ensued,  someone would have won, someone would have lost.  Then the raping and the pillaging and yes, the massive loss of life would have ensued, again.  But then it would be over.  

Our inability to accept this leads to our "peace efforts," which keep the whole thing right under the boiling point, constantly.  Someone dies today, a kid gets blown up tomorrow, etc.

...any religion that rejects coffee worships a false god.
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Reply #34 on: March 22, 2004, 02:18:04 PM

Quote from: Mesozoic
Our inability to accept this leads to our "peace efforts," which keep the whole thing right under the boiling point, constantly.  Someone dies today, a kid gets blown up tomorrow, etc.


I don't think international peace efforts can really be blamed for having prolonged the violence. Indeed, I would say that the goal of the Bush administration--the marginalization of the Palestinian radicals--is an admirable one. Unfortunately, the situation is Israel is nowhere near a high priority for the administration, and it seems to have backed away once its initial efforts failed (i.e. broken truces, the brief ministry of Mahmoud Abbas).

Cutting the support for terrorists in Palestine would be accomplished the same way it is throughout the world: by making terror unnecessary. Some may disagree, but I imagine that widespread Palestinian support for groups like Hamas--and there is no doubt it exists--is dependent upon the fact that they're the only groups that seem to have any degree of strength that appear to be acting on behalf of the Palestinian people; the PLO moderates are powerless and the Israeli government is actively hostile.

A concerted effort by concerned outside governments to raise the standard of living of the Palestinian through public works, education and increased employment has never been tried, and might very well be successful. Has there ever been a hopeless, destitute minority that didn't radicalize against the majority, or vice versa? While it would be best if the Israelis could take the moral high road, the above combined with a stated policy on Israel's part of not attacking terrorists if it would lead to civilian casualties would go a long way to ease tensions.

While events up until this point have made it essentially impossible for Israel as presently consituted to continue on as one state, it is entirely possible for the death-to-Israel types to be pushed out of the picture in favor of those who aren't ideological extremists. That isn't going to happen, however, until circumstances are arranged in such a fashion that such individuals would have the opportunity to emerge.

Also, to recap:

Quote from: Monika T'Sarn
I do not really understand the problem everybody has with this.


1. This man's death will increase, not decrease, the number of attacks against Israelis.
2. This man's death will increase, not decrease, the support received by the death-to-Israel wing of Palestinian terrorists.
3. The indifference of the Israeli government to civilian deaths when assassinating terrorists will do both of the above, in addition to further weakening Israel's reputation abroad.
4. Extralegal murders by governments reduce the degree to which the rule of law is respected by all.
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