The Trouble with Addiction - Nobody is Scared of a Leather Ball

[Evangolis]

So, there is a new Daedalus Project edition out, and there are a couple of articles in it that I like on the subject of games and addition.

One is a Q&A with a therapist named Shavaun Scott, which I found interesting.

The other is an extended editorial, with footnotes, called The Trouble with "Addiction".  I think it is pretty good, possibly because I pretty much agree with it.

Both are pretty good reads, in my view, and move beyond the usual level that discussion of addiction and gaming usually falls to.  I commend them to your attention, and perhaps to your bookmarks.

[sinij]

but but... we could quit any time we wanted to!

Still therapist's approach is too touchy-feely for me, in context of mmorpg and gambling addiction is ALL about reinforcement schedules.

[Tale]

It's the same type of compulsion as compulsive gambling. It begins as a harmless diversion that takes you away from daily stress and gives you an outlet beyond your normal existence. But because it lifts you up, you develop a need for it. And you start prioritising it wrongly, even in full knowledge that you're doing this. Just the once, you'll sneak away from your family/work to do it. Just the once, you'll avoid sleep to do it. Getting away with it once, leads to another "once".

And you develop a habit that you don't see. You think you're just gaming and it's only "addictive" in the way they rate addiction and hookability in magazines. But you plan to do stuff with your time, and it doesn't get done.

If you have someone to point this out to you, they are an annoyance. You deny that it's a problem. When you don't have someone and it's just you beating yourself up for it, then gaming some more because it makes you feel better, and being reinforced by your "online friends" in the game, it just keeps becoming a deeper hole until you hit the bottom and try to change.

You're going shopping at 9am, then 10am, then midday, then 2pm, then 4:30pm because there's just enough time before the shops close. Then the shops have closed, and you'll go tomorrow. But tomorrow you realise you have all day again, so you can obviously afford to spend some time in the game. You start hating yourself a little when the shops have closed again, and you still haven't gone. After a few days, it becomes normal not to go to the shops. Eventually you lose the ability to go to the shops. Your appearance isn't what it should be. You're getting too unfit. You don't like shopping centres. All those little excuses that enable you to spend "just a little more" time in the game, getting the lift it gives you. The days, weeks, months, years go by.

And then you have those people on gaming forums who say "therez no such problem as gaming addiction lol". They're not helping. Maybe it's not chemical addiction, but we all know compulsive gambling can destroy families and individuals, and compulsive gaming is far more accessible.

This problem is real and should not be dismissed as a simple lack of self-control. The "I know better than you" opinions of people who write long, involved dismissals of compulsive gaming, should rank with the people who failed to pick the success of WoW. Yeah, you.

[Kail]

This problem is real and should not be dismissed as a simple lack of self-control. The "I know better than you" opinions of people who write long, involved dismissals of compulsive gaming, should rank with the people who failed to pick the success of WoW. Yeah, you.

Then how should we react to it?  I don't think online gaming addiction is just some trivial matter (and I suspect it's going to become a more serious problems if MMOs continue to move into the mainstream), but what kind of reaction are you honestly hoping for?  We stick a label on it and say "IT'S A PROBLEM!" and then go home, mission accomplished?  Who cares if we recognize it?  Who are we helping?  The guy who's let his life go to shit while he's grinding in Lineage is not going to care, he's got l3wt to worry about.  If he wakes up one morning and notices that he's not living the way he wants to, he's not going to find it suddenly easier to turn his life around now that we can give a name to his problem.  It's him who's got to make the call, there, and I don't see how being able to point to a page in the DSM is going to help him do that.

I largely agree with the article.  Things like video game addiction are complex issues.  You can't just stick a label on something and pretend you've made some progress towards fixing it.  If someone has got a problem, by all means, they should seek help, but you're not going to suddenly cause everyone to quit playing Vanguard by telling them they're all mentally ill.

[Strazos]

I think you have to be mentally ill to even start to play Vanguard, but that's a different issue entirely.

[Krakrok]

To ask why some people get “addicted” to their fantasy personas is a way of not asking how we expect people to derive life satisfaction from working at Wal-Mart. The people who we let fall through the holes of our social fabric are caught by an alternate reality where they feel a sense of satisfaction and purpose.

[Strazos]

I wonder how much of a killing Walmart would make if they paid somewhat below minimum wage, but gave employees a free WoW sub.

[Tale]

what kind of reaction are you honestly hoping for?  We stick a label on it and say "IT'S A PROBLEM!"

Many gamers I have seen posting in threads like this do not believe there is any such problem. They enjoy belittling anyone labelled game compulsives/addicts because they believe it can all be explained by a simple lack of self-discipline.

I really want to throttle anyone who thinks that, because they are dangerous and wrong. That's why my post only goes as far as "it's a problem". I was just putting a foot in the thread.

[Tale]

To ask why some people get “addicted” to their fantasy personas is a way of not asking how we expect people to derive life satisfaction from working at Wal-Mart. The people who we let fall through the holes of our social fabric are caught by an alternate reality where they feel a sense of satisfaction and purpose.

1. The above argument is based on a view that there is a social class system. That there is an elite "we", and an underclass "they" doomed to serve us in places like Wal-Mart. Whose silly view is this?

2. It assumes that the addiction is "to their fantasy persona". That is so misguided it's funny. Compulsive gamers don't care about their virtual character. They are hooked on comfort derived from a sense of place and space, not on being an avatar. This is like assuming an alcoholic is addicted to a certain brand because that's what they usually drink.

3. It assumes that gaming addicts are people who have fallen through the holes of our social fabric and are actually just seeking escape,, i.e. that the elite, superior "we" are less susceptible to it, because it's just escapism sought by plebs. I became a compulsive gamer while working in a high-pressure media job for good money. I wasn't looking for an escape, I was hooked on a self-sustaining high from spending time in the game world. My justification for it as a cyberpunk fan was experimenting hardcore with the metaverse or cyberspace, but then I couldn't stop. I could tear myself away quite easily, but I couldn't stop myself going back. Same happens to compulsive gamblers.

4. It's generally fucking insulting.

[Sky]

You may find it insulting, but it's true. If you work at walmart, life pretty much sucks. I was a manager on the unloading dock, I know from experience, three long years. One guy there I've mentioned a lot in my posts, my buddy the eqholic. Another guy was the one who got married to someone he met in UO. The biggest mmo players I've known irl all worked at walmart. If you had to wear a blue vest and take shit from power-hungry small-minded morons all day, you'd want a little escapism, too.

Your view that there is no class system is what's silly.

[Krakrok]

1. The above argument is based on a view that there is a social class system. That there is an elite "we", and an underclass "they" doomed to serve us in places like Wal-Mart. Whose silly view is this?

2. It assumes that the addiction is "to their fantasy persona". That is so misguided it's funny. Compulsive gamers don't care about their virtual character. They are hooked on comfort derived from a sense of place and space, not on being an avatar. This is like assuming an alcoholic is addicted to a certain brand because that's what they usually drink.

America has social classes. You're taking 'fantasy persona' too literally. I think they ment the overall escapism experience. Also, I don't think you've read either of the two articles. I could say more but I think you should read the articles before continuing to respond.

[shiznitz]

America has social classes, yes, but no one is confined to the same class for their whole life if they don't want to be. That is the difference. You can work at WalMart and hate your life or you can try and do something else.

I am not speaking from personal experience since I was born with a silver-plated (not pure silver, mind you) spoon in my mouth, but I have met plenty of people in my life who came from much less fortunate circumstances than myself and have succeeded beyond anything I reasonably expect to achieve.

[Numtini]

Those are some great articles.

I think the reason people reject the title of "gaming addiction" is that it is frequently based on the physical addiction model and fails to address the positive benefits of gaming. It's also frequently used not because someone's gaming is a causing problems in their life as much as because someone, usually a parent, wishes that the person in question was doing some other type of social activity. In other words, all the reasons that this article laid out. Addiction is an inappropriate model and an inappropriate term for what is basically a bad psycho-social adaptation to circumstances.

I took the Wal-Mart metaphor as being about the overall difficulties of our modern society and the concept that online environments are offering something that our offline lives do not offer us. I didn't take it as a class based criticism. For a McJob holder, yes, that social void could be a feeling of importance or the ability to express leadership strengths not allowed by their offline experience. For someone in a high powered well paying position, it could be relaxation. In either economic situation, it could also be one of control if they are at the mercy of chaotic outside forces -- capricious managers, clients, and so on. The same might be true for someone who's an adolescent and has a poor family situation. Someone who has a lot of family responsibilities might become a tycoon in Eve because he has the skills for personal investing and entrepreneurship and enjoys it, but can't pursue that in real life because he needs a regular income and insurance for his family.

Those can all lead to inappropriate and socially problemic levels of gaming.

4. It's generally fucking insulting.

That gets to the heart of why AA and the disease model is so popular and the argument about online gaming is really the same one about models of addictive behavior (including most chemical addictions). The real breakthrough that AA brought to the table was to separate addictive behavior from moral responsibility. And we still have this same concept that psychological difficulties have some correlation to weakness, inadequacy, moral responsibility, and so on. It's both the strength and weakness of the AA model. The notion that we are powerless over our addictions removes the guilt of responsibility. But it also removes the notion that there are other issues in life that form underlying causes and need to be addressed. I grew up with two alcoholics and having spent most of my life sussing out their issues, there were underlying issues that offered a far more compelling reason for alcoholism than genetic predelictions or neurological pathways.

[Numtini]

America has social classes, yes, but no one is confined to the same class for their whole life if they don't want to be. That is the difference. You can work at WalMart and hate your life or you can try and do something else.

While that is the American mythology, in reality economic mobility in the US compares unfavorably to Western Europe.

[sinij]

Addiction, in context of games, begins with rewards - you perform an action and receive a reward, just like Pavlovian dog. If you find reward appealing, or don't have alternatives, you repeat your action to get more rewards. After that biology kicks-in and its welcome to addiction-hood for you. Best thing to beat game addiction is reward substitution - you find something else equally or more rewarding to do. Problem is that most catasses don't have anything better and its hard to find something that rewards you in such regular and consistent way.

[Lantyssa]

but but... we could quit any time we wanted to!

Still therapist's approach is too touchy-feely for me, in context of mmorpg and gambling addiction is ALL about reinforcement schedules.

Some people respond better to touchy-feely than rigorous enforcement.  Attempts at the latter make me extremely combatative and undermine any chance of me caring what reasons the person has.  On the other hand, having the decency to talk with me and explain their perception of things will at least make me consider their point of view.

I do wish she could spell my name correctly though. 

[Merusk]

I just felt the need to post my avatar in this thread.  Addiction being the topic, and all.


The idea that America has no social classes also gave me a good chuckle.

[Numtini]

The particular therapist in that article is a Marriage and Family Therapist. That's not just a field of practice (ie, work with families), it's actually a particular branch of therapy like psychology, psychiatry, or social work with it's own particular educational track, licensing scheme, and history. They're mainly about family systems and evolved largely as a critical reaction to Freudianism and behavioralism, so they don't tend to use either. Her approach in the article was classic MFT.

[Soln]

after taxation and real criminal RMT'ing, this is the biggest thing game developers are in denial about.  And because they won't/can't do anything about it, you can expect Governments eventually will.  Las Vegas casinos were apparently the first to jump on the addiction bandwagon.  It was their best interest to "care".  I still don't know why, for instance, there are no timers or alerts on MMO's: "Excuse me LeeroyJ, but we see you've been logged in for 12 hours straight now.  Maybe you should take a break?" unless you're bottin', of course.

[Strazos]

Only tangentally related, but doesn't the Wii throw up notes such as this from time to time? Not sure if it's with every game, but I seem to remember that it reminds you to take a break every now and then.

Now who, really, takes a 10 minute break for every hour of gaming? Seriously. 

[Sky]

I take a 23 hour break for every hour of gaming.

[Krakrok]

I take a 48 minute break for every 12 minutes of work.

[Tale]

What the fuck does America's having or not having social classes have to do with anything in this thread you complete, utter American-centric dipshits? Why the fuck did you even start mentioning America? Are you that fucking self-obsessed? Sorry to burst your bubble, but gaming and compulsive gaming also happen elsewhere in the world.

My objection was to the pathetic suggestion that MMOG addiction only happens to "lower classes". It is a problem that is totally disconnected from social position. You can become a compulsive gamer whether you are rich or poor, work at Wal-Mart or a merchant bank, eat McDonalds or caviar.

I don't work at Wal-mart. I don't even have any fucking Wal-marts or any similar megastores in my country yet. I work in a high pressure media job. But I've had a terrible problem with compulsive gaming (now overcome). That's why I said the above pathetic argument was so insulting and wrong. Compulsive gaming does not happen because of dissatisfaction with your life, it can happen to anyone.

[Strazos]

Are you Trying to burst a blood vessel?

[Sky]

I'm rooting for it. God Bless America.

[sinij]

They're mainly about family systems and evolved largely as a critical reaction to Freudianism and behavioralism, so they don't tend to use either.

This explains it. Still addiction is right out of learning theory, there is no good reason to use anything else when the right tool is there. MFT when used outside of family interactions is not that different from crystal ball or numerology.

[sinij]

I take a 23 hour break for every hour of gaming.

Please leave your gamers card at the door on your way out.

[sinij]

Compulsive gaming does not happen because of dissatisfaction with your life, it can happen to anyone.

I agree, its correlation, not causation effect. It is not that you being less or more privileged causes you to be more or less likely to be addicted, it is that among runaway addicted, in context of mmorpgs, most people tend to be less privileged. Why? Maybe because there are more less privileged people out there, maybe because money can buy you out of a lot of problems, maybe because runaway addiction puts you in less privileged position (i.e. you stop working, squander your social tie and spend all your money on phat lootz).

[Sky]

I take a 23 hour break for every hour of gaming.

Please leave your gamers card at the door on your way out.

[sinij]

Griefer

[Numtini]

This explains it. Still addiction is right out of learning theory, there is no good reason to use anything else when the right tool is there.

There are lots of theories of addiction though. Genetic and biochemical obviously fall apart when you deal with a psychological rather than chemical "addiction." To me the problem with behaviorist theories is that not everyone engages in addictive behavior and in my personal experiences, a systems perspective is very compelling in isolating why some people do and some people don't.

Also behaviorist theories can work with something like alcohol which produces euphoria, but if you are being positively reinforced in an online social game, why are you being reinforced? (Particularly if you are not engaging in addictive behavior in offline games.) To me, getting the shiny doesn't really provide an explanation on its own, because the shiny doesn't exist. If the rat gets the lab brick, it can eat the brick. But with a virtual reward, to me you have to explain why it is that the virtual reward is at all compelling. And that treating the needs that lead one to seek that virtual reward to a compulsive level will probably improve functioning elsewhere, not just with the specific problem behavior.

[Calantus]

Personally, and I'm pretty sure this oppinion will be unpopular, but I don't feel that MMOG addiction is that much of an issue. I've been worse than any (non-chemical) addict when playing MMOGs at their height. I leveled a warlock to 60 with 7 days played and in a week and a half. For the first 3 days I slept for 2 hours total and only then because I would have passed out otherwise. 16-20 hour days have been pretty regular occurances for me over my WoW playtime. I have 3 characters with 80-120 hours /played, plus alts. And yet I'm not addicted to WoW, I can stop whenever I want. Yeah, yeah, it's said a lot, but here it's true. I've taken long breaks from WoW before, like a 2 month stint where I played maybe 6 hours total because I had to work pretty hardcore in that period, and currently I have no MMOG I'm playing. I have quit basically, because I wanted to.

The same was for UO back in the day, I was up to the wee hours quite often. I used to play Utopia as well and I'd log huge hours into that, and do things like log in at 3am to build things, or skip class to sneak a session on the library computers. When I get books I'll read them back to back to back until I'm done, and forsake just about anything to do it. When I first read the WoT series I read all 9 books that were out in a little over a week (what a waste, fuck you Jordan). I've spent hours listening to the same song "one more time" when I really need to go to bed because I just have to hear that song (the latest one is this one (not that I listen to it on youtube), sometimes I just can't get enough of it). Basically I've been through a lot of addictions and addictive behavours (and still have them), but it's ALL the same. There's no special hook in any of them. A lot of people put it down to escapism, and I'd be willing to say that it is a component, but I'm much more convinced it's something I like to call "addicted to leisure".

Basically you have an urge to do an activity and you do it regardless of whether you should be doing something else. You skip school/work for it, you skip sleep, you neglect appointments or people for it. Whatever you're doing it's impacting in a negative way, otherwise it's not a problem and can be safely ignored. Everybody sees it as being some hook in the activity, but personally I just see it as a character flaw or a reflection of what's going on in your life. There's no chemical forcing you to do the activity, you just choose to ignore those other things in favour of doing something you enjoy more. Is it a problem? Sure. Is it an MMO problem? No.

Once a teacher of mine was concerned that my marks were not going as well as they had in recent years and figured that Utopia was the reason. I told her then, and I'll tell you now that one game is not the issue at all. I was at a point where I wanted to do something, anything but schoolwork. If I wasn't playing Utopia I'd be reading books or listening to music, or playing another game, or some kind of leisure activity. And yes, when I quit Utopia I did indeed fill that time with other leisure activities. It's fundamentally a shift of priorities where leisure wins out above more important concerns. That's it. The MMO factor is basically that it's always there, and it's much harder to pull all of the value out of it. Devs make them specifically so there's "always" something you can be doing. They're more visable because it's the 1 activity you're doing. If I spent multiple 20 hour periods wherein I was listening to music, reading a book, playing on the PS2, surfing for a couple hours, and then playing 2 different computer games would someone point to an addiction there? Doubtful, they'd just say I need to start prioritising my life better. But if I spent 20 hours in the one game? Zomg ur addicted to teh WoW!!

[Evangolis]

America has social classes, yes, but no one is confined to the same class for their whole life if they don't want to be. That is the difference. You can work at WalMart and hate your life or you can try and do something else.

I am not speaking from personal experience since I was born with a silver-plated (not pure silver, mind you) spoon in my mouth, but I have met plenty of people in my life who came from much less fortunate circumstances than myself and have succeeded beyond anything I reasonably expect to achieve.

There is some mobility, but there is luck as well as effort in play.  And, all things being otherwise equal, where you finish is determined by where you start.  Just the cold equations there.

And speaking from personal experience, if I was black instead of white, I would be an ex-convict now.  I know this because the nice policeman explained it to me in short sentences, composed of mostly single syllable words.  All men are not equal before the law in America.  Just look at OJ and Robert Blake.

Addiction, in context of games, begins with rewards - you perform an action and receive a reward, just like Pavlovian dog. If you find reward appealing, or don't have alternatives, you repeat your action to get more rewards. After that biology kicks-in and its welcome to addiction-hood for you. Best thing to beat game addiction is reward substitution - you find something else equally or more rewarding to do. Problem is that most catasses don't have anything better and its hard to find something that rewards you in such regular and consistent way.

One of the interesting things about drug addiction is that drugs generally the most fun the first time you do them.  One of the experiences that addicts have is that drugs provide less and less pleasure with repeated use, until the drugs only avert the pain lack of the drug brings.  At this point the reinforcement is all negative, and not at all psychological.  The Pavlovian model is simplistic when compared to the biochemical changes drugs cause the in body.  There is a reason you see people standing on street corners selling their bodies for drugs, but not for broadband connections.  The biochemistry is not the same.

4. It's generally fucking insulting.

Now this is actually why I came back to this thread.  I disagree with pretty much everything Tale said, but I can't disagree with how he feels, particularly since as a recovering abuser of drugs and alcohol, I've long been insulted by the 'game addiction' debate.  One of the things that I liked about this article was that it help focus part of why I was insulted.

I've long known that I've been insulted by the conflation of biochemical addiction with everything from compulsive handwashing to failure to clean your room.  I'm offended by the not so subtle linking of bad behavior to addiction, as if the alcoholic coughing up blood in the alley was just making a lifestyle choice.  I'm similarly offended by public figures cloaking their misdeeds and hypocrisies in claims of addictions.  I've personally known too many people who have been racked and wrecked by drugs to not be outraged at such transparent fig leaves.

But what this showed my was that the focus on the question of 'are games addictive', turns the focus away from the person with the problem.  When someone is spending too much time and energy playing games, the thing that needs changed lies in the person and their life, not the game.  It is not something that the game 'does' to the player, it is something about the player's life that is out of balance.  Talking about game addiction puts the focus on the game, not the person, and that is a reversal of priorities that offends me.

[Strazos]

Stuff

Your problem may not specifically be MMG addiction, but there is a problem there. Quite a severe one if it can drive you to...lets say, play WoW for 168 hours in about 11 days.

Not only is it not healthy, it's also not productive.

As an aside...yeah that's a cool song...I've had it for about 2-3 years.

[sinij]

If the rat gets the lab brick, it can eat the brick. But with a virtual reward, to me you have to explain why it is that the virtual reward is at all compelling.

Operant Conditioning explains it fairly well. Are you familiar with Premack's principle? Premack's principle states that more probable behavior will reinforce less probable behavior. More probable behavior (reinforcer) of gaining level or obtaining shiny (a token) reinforces less probable behavior of sitting in front of your computer doing repetitive tasks for prolonged periods of time.

Human being are fairly strange animals, with our abstract thinking we are capable of generalizing all kinds of behaviors resulting in strangest things working as reinforcer. Just look at token economies experiments.