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Author Topic: Gears of War not to be released in germany *sigh*  (Read 8067 times)
Jeff Kelly
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on: November 27, 2006, 05:04:57 AM

According to several german gaming rags, gears of war will not be released in germany due to its violent content and gory graphical representations.

The USK (the german equivalent of the ESRB) refused to grant Gears of War an 18+ rating, citing the "gory and too realistic gameplay" as a reaon. This means that the game is even deemed to be unsuitable for adults. This is in accordance with german law which outlaws all games, films or other media that glamorize violence. The game may therefore not be sold in germany.

As a side note: import versions of the game will not run on a german X-BOX 360. Microsoft has altered the firmware of the X-Box so that games without a USK rating will not run. The publisher staterd that they would not offer a "modified" version of Gears of War for german customers because it would "severely alter the play experience".

Microsoft loses the strongest system seller for the christmas season in germany.
schild
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Reply #1 on: November 27, 2006, 05:16:21 AM

Quote
This is in accordance with German law which outlaws all games, films or other media that glamorize violence.

Heh. Too easy.

On a more serious note, how much of Europe does Germany count for - gaming population-wise? 10%? 15%? 5%?
Tebonas
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Reply #2 on: November 27, 2006, 05:29:34 AM

Couldn't you buy an X-Box 360 and the games from Austria since we don't have USK ratings and therefore no modified X-Boxes.
Big Gulp
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Reply #3 on: November 27, 2006, 05:33:40 AM

Couldn't you buy an X-Box 360 and the games from Austria since we don't have USK ratings and therefore no modified X-Boxes.

Seems like that'd be a big pain in the ass, though.  Every time you get a hankering for a game you have to order online from an Austrian outlet?  That'd be like me having to go to Amazon Canada to buy every game.  It's an untenable situation.

Oh, and you guys remember my constant harping about the nanny state over in the politics threads?  This is a good example of it.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2006, 05:35:27 AM by Big Gulp »
schild
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Reply #4 on: November 27, 2006, 05:35:01 AM

Gulp, your avatar is freaking me out more than Germany's transparent attempt to pretend the holocaust was yesterday.
Big Gulp
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Reply #5 on: November 27, 2006, 05:35:55 AM

Gulp, your avatar is freaking me out more than Germany's transparent attempt to pretend the holocaust was yesterday.

What, your dog's never licked a little pussy?
schild
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Reply #6 on: November 27, 2006, 05:46:37 AM

No. No, man. Shit, no, man.
Ironwood
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Reply #7 on: November 27, 2006, 05:50:29 AM


Oh, and you guys remember my constant harping about the nanny state over in the politics threads?  This is a good example of it.

Yes, it actually is.  If only you used it as an example rather than some of the lesser wierd ones you come out with.

Unsuitable for Adults.  For fuck's sake.  As for realistic gameplay, I seem to remember a trailer with a massive multi-eyed spider-God.  Exactly how realistic is that ?  Because I'm now worried there's one under the house...

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Big Gulp
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Reply #8 on: November 27, 2006, 05:58:33 AM

If only you used it as an example rather than some of the lesser wierd ones you come out with.

You mean like telling grown ups who own businesses that they can't allow smoking in those businesses?  Seems to me that forbidding adults to indulge in certain legal activities, whether it be smoking or gaming comes down to the same thing.

However, since I don't want this thread to be either denned or slapped into politics that's the last I'll comment on it.
Ironwood
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Reply #9 on: November 27, 2006, 06:02:46 AM


 rolleyes

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Tebonas
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Reply #10 on: November 27, 2006, 06:03:35 AM

You are right, lets not delve into politics here. I laughed about those German laws when they banned Wolfenstein (because killing Nazis seems to be the same as wanting to be Nazis), and I laugh at those laws now decades later.

Suffice to say my multi-eyed spider-God takes offense by you calling her unrealistic Ironwood. Prepare to get eaten!
« Last Edit: November 27, 2006, 06:05:47 AM by Tebonas »
Ironwood
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Reply #11 on: November 27, 2006, 06:06:35 AM

Hey, I'm not ever going to cheapen the holocaust and if Germany wants to ban Nazi symbols and whatnot, that's up to them.  But banning a computer game EVEN TO ADULTS for realistic depictions of violence is just mental.  Do they honestly think that they're more prone as a nation to outright acts of hostility ?  Is it likely that Gears of War will somehow convince Gamers to invade Poland ??

I'm a little confused.

Can't wait to see how they'll handle Holodeck legislation.  :)


And now, after reading Tebonas, even more scared of the spider-god under the house.


"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Tebonas
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Reply #12 on: November 27, 2006, 06:11:56 AM

They removed Nazi symbols from Indiana Jones, INDIANA JONES. Because that was a regular Nazi propaganda piece  rolleyes
Ironwood
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Reply #13 on: November 27, 2006, 06:15:57 AM

Yeah, but you can't really make one rule for one and then bend it for another.

It's not like ANY of the games depicting Nazi's were making them out to be Sterling Chaps, is it ?

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Big Gulp
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Reply #14 on: November 27, 2006, 06:18:18 AM

They removed Nazi symbols from Indiana Jones, INDIANA JONES. Because that was a regular Nazi propaganda piece  rolleyes

Seems to me that this is really juvenile.  It'd be like us passing a law where you can't make movies showing 19th century Americans slaughtering indians or enslaving blacks, even if they're obviously depicted as the bad guys.  It must be bizarre watching a movie like Raiders or Last Crusade where you know the bad guys are Nazis, and yet no Nazi regalia is shown.  It'd stick out just for it's absence.
Tebonas
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Reply #15 on: November 27, 2006, 06:22:14 AM

Oh but you can. You just have to ban the glorifying of the Third Reich. Like we did, problem solved. I still can drive that chainsaw through Robohitler (or was it a knife in Wolfenstein? Its been sooo long).
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #16 on: November 27, 2006, 07:19:14 AM

But banning a computer game EVEN TO ADULTS for realistic depictions of violence is just mental.  Do they honestly think that they're more prone as a nation to outright acts of hostility ?  Is it likely that Gears of War will somehow convince Gamers to invade Poland ??

I'm a little confused.

Truth be told it confuses most of the adult gamers or film fanatics as well. There are currently three different levels.

1. Things that have an USK/FSK rating. The FSK (freiwillige Selbstkontrolle der Filmwirtschaft) is the movie equivalent of the USK (Unterhaltungssoftware Selbstkontrolle). They both have mostly the same responsibilities as the ESRP or the MPRR, Both are indrustry associations that rate every film/game that is published/shown in germany. The rating has several implications for sellers/theater owners.

People of a lower age than that mentioned on the rating are not allowed to buy that game/watch that film and the owner may face high fines if he does not heed those rules. There are also restrictions on advertisements for certain ratings. An adult only game or movie for example may not be advertised in the media. As a side effect gaming magazines do not report about such games because a preview or review is routinely thought of as advertisement for that game and the whole print run may be confiscated. (Don't laugh this has happened in the past.)

The FSK/USK has the following ratings

Suitable for all ages
Suitable for ages 6 or above
Suitable for ages 12 or above
Suitable for ages 16 or above
Adults only (18+)

2. If the USK/FSK refuse to grant a game/movie the adult only rating it is "unrated". Unrated material may be sold to adults in germany but unrated material faces more severe restrictions.

The game/movie may not be advertised in any form or by any means. The game/movie may not be made accessible to minors in any form. That means that it may not be on display in a store and it may not be sold via internet or mail order because age verification there is difficult or impossible. The german legislature does not acknowledge any form of online age verification as a legal way because as long as minors live in the same house as you they might pick it up from your mail box without you realizing it. (Yes a german court actually used that as a justification for ruling that online age verification is not suitable).

Games or movies that are "not rated" may not even be imported from abroad because that is also illegal and you may face up to Eur 50.000 in fines or a one year prison sentence. (This law is illegal by the way because it infringes on the principle of free trade in the european union but nobody has challenged it until now)

So this is effectively a sales ban because no big retailer will pick up a game that is "not rated" and nobody would be allowed to import such games/movies anyway (a nice catch 22 by the way). Online resellers like play or cdwow refuse to sell games or movies to german residents because of that.

3. If a game/movie depicts scenes that are deemed to brutal or otherwise harmful (some forms of BDSM or violent pornography, all things neonazi etc.) they can be banned entirely although this can only happen by request. If a movie/game faced a ban then you may not own or sell it in any way.

This happens not very often but popular examples include: the uncut version of from dusk till dawn, bad taste, braindead, Wolfenstein 3D and countless others.
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #17 on: November 27, 2006, 07:22:35 AM

They removed Nazi symbols from Indiana Jones, INDIANA JONES. Because that was a regular Nazi propaganda piece  rolleyes

The depiction of nazi symbols is illegal in germany, except for documentation purposes or in historical documents. Movies count usually as "for documentation purposes" but if the Nazis are only used for comedic relief or for entertainment purposes that might not be the case.

So Schindler's List is OK, Hogan's Heroes is not.
Tebonas
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Reply #18 on: November 27, 2006, 07:29:27 AM

Now I'm confused as well. I remember seeing Hogans Heroes on German television. Did the cut all things Nazi out? Its been some years since I saw it.
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #19 on: November 27, 2006, 07:30:08 AM

Couldn't you buy an X-Box 360 and the games from Austria since we don't have USK ratings and therefore no modified X-Boxes.

No, the import of unrated games is illegal and you can face fines of up to Eur 50.000 or one year in prison. Usually the german customs just confiscate the things when they catch them. Two years ago I lost Eur 150 in movies to the german customs officials because they seized my copy of the first season of 24 and several movies.

This practice is illegal because it infringes on the policy of free trade in the EU but so far nobody has challenged that in court. But the german customs have the inofficial order to no longer confiscate anything that not commercially imported. But some online retailers still refuse to sell to german residents.
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #20 on: November 27, 2006, 07:31:39 AM

Now I'm confused as well. I remember seeing Hogans Heroes on German television. Did the cut all things Nazi out? Its been some years since I saw it.

Well not all things Nazi are illegal just certain symbols like the Swastika or the SS-Runes.
Tebonas
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Reply #21 on: November 27, 2006, 07:33:32 AM

Wow, thats just wow. I have several German friends that regulary order online from here and therefore assumed it was legal. The longer I listen to you the more I realize how retarded that really is. No wonder so many of you move over here :)
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Reply #22 on: November 27, 2006, 07:34:46 AM

So...if you lived close to the German border, could you simply drive over and into a nearby town with a gaming store and buy whatever you want to get around the law?

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Tebonas
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Reply #23 on: November 27, 2006, 07:39:23 AM

Incindently one of the largest Austrian gaming stores is in Salzburg, which is (I think) under 5 miles from the German border. And we usually don't control each others citizens that much (if even) when crossing our respective borders. Yes, now it dawns on you as well how stupid that law really is!
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #24 on: November 27, 2006, 08:09:59 AM

Especially for tebonas a link to the german wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indizierung. You can go from there. Naturally there is no english material on the subject and I am too lazy to translate it.
Ironwood
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Reply #25 on: November 27, 2006, 08:40:22 AM

Two years ago I lost Eur 150 in movies to the german customs officials because they seized my copy of the first season of 24 and several movies.


*blink*

...

What ?

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #26 on: November 28, 2006, 04:15:05 AM

*blink*

...

What ?

Everything that doesn't sport an USK/FSK label is treated as being unrated. Unrated material may not be imported into germany (that would be a felony). So german customs has the legal power to confiscate those things. If I buy the UK version of 24 or disney's little mermaid for example both would be treated as unrated. They might have a UK BBFC rating and that rating might even be "Universal" (as in: suitable for all ages) but according to german law it would still have to be treated as being "unrated" because no german authority has rated that particular version of the movie.

This would even be the case if there is a german version of the same movie that had already been rated by the german FSK. So if I buy the UK version of my little mermaid for example it would be illegal even though the german version and the UK version are exactly identical (except for the cover text being in english or german) they have the same bonus features and the same set of languages but one does have an FSK-logo and the other does not so one of them is treated as "suitable for all ages" and the other one as "not rated" therefore "adult only".

This is in violation of european law because it infringes on the principle of free trade of goods and services among member states but so far no one has challenged that law in court. German customs has the inofficial instruction to no longer seize unrated material because several german residents have already sued the german state exactly because of that law but they have the legal power to do so.
eldaec
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Reply #27 on: November 28, 2006, 05:35:57 AM

Not that this would be the first time that customs authorities have exceeded their authority within EU countries.

(UK customs are also espeicially fond of reversing the burden of proof, or just deciding that more than X bottles of wine can't possibly be for personal use etc)

It is depressing how keen European governments are to dismantle the single market while it remains the one and only positive achievement of endless EU treaties.

Quote
So...if you lived close to the German border, could you simply drive over and into a nearby town with a gaming store and buy whatever you want to get around the law?

Yes, and people often do all across Europe, for instance people living near London often avoid buying cigarettes and alcohol locally when France is 90 minutes away, and of course plenty of people get around any number of laws by visiting Amsterdam. Though this is really no different to the daily traffic across the US/Mexican border, or indeed the daily traffic out-of/in-to whatever-US-State-you-live-in to avoid sales tax.

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Ironwood
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Reply #28 on: November 28, 2006, 06:24:12 AM

Sorry, Jeff, I've understood everything you've said in this thread and I'm 100% sure everything you say is true.

It's just that I find it completely and totally baffling.

:)

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
ahoythematey
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Reply #29 on: November 28, 2006, 12:07:44 PM

How does a country with a law like that manage to have so many fucking "counterstrike" and "day of defeat" players?
eldaec
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Reply #30 on: November 28, 2006, 01:49:11 PM

How does a country with a law like that manage to have so many fucking "counterstrike" and "day of defeat" players?

Pent up aggression I guess.

That, and the fact that customs jobsworths don't inspect international downloads.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Ironwood
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Reply #31 on: November 29, 2006, 01:25:45 AM

That's a good point :  How does Steam get regulated ?

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Engels
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Reply #32 on: November 29, 2006, 08:04:36 AM

Lets not pretend for a moment that Germany's laws about this are about morality. Its simply protectionism of the worst kind.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

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Tebonas
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Reply #33 on: November 29, 2006, 08:21:10 AM

Its partly about money, there you are right. But German developers don't have an advantage. They have exactly the same problems. They have to pay the money (around 1000 Euro i think) to get a rating as well.
Jain Zar
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Reply #34 on: November 29, 2006, 05:56:05 PM

Seems silly.  Comparing it to cigarettes even sillier.  You can't blow imaginary pixel violence in someone's face and last I knew Castle Wolfenstein wasn't a cause of SIDS.
I didn't lose my dad and my favorite aunt last year to the early works of Peter Jackson.

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