PS3 Linux / Open Platform

[Quinton]

So, Sony has been making noise for a while about supporting Linux on the PS3 and about it being an Open Platform.  Just about an hour ago they made good on this, making the installer needed to install a bootloader for an alternate OS ("Other OS" in PS3 terms) available:
http://www.playstation.com/ps3-openplatform/index.html

The ADDON image contains the otheros.bld (bootloader) and various other goodies:
ftp://ftp.uk.linux.org/pub/linux/Sony-PS3/

This stuff works with Fedora Core 5 for PowerPC.  It should be adaptable to any other PPC Linux distribution (YellowDog is releasing their version on the 27th, for example):
http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/torrents/bordeaux-DVD-ppc.torrent
http://fedora.redhat.com/Download/mirrors.html

More patches and goodies:
http://www.powerdeveloper.org/playstation.php

My PS3 is chugging along, installing FC5-PPC, and I'm really hoping that not having the ADDON stuff burnt to a CDR ahead of time won't result in me needing to reinstall (since I am warned that this install takes two hours).

In any case, this has me pretty excited about the platform as an indie/hobbiest development system.  They're providing access to the HDD and BDROM drive (via hypervisor traps, to protect the Game OS and Game Data), the USB subsystem, the SPEs, etc.  Sadly the only GPU access as of right now is for the frame buffer (no HW accel from linux).  I'm pestering two people I know who are involved in PS3 developer tools at Sony, but so far it sounds like GPU support is going to be a ways off (boo).

Still, this sets a new bar for open console platforms. 

-Q

[Trippy]

Sadly the only GPU access as of right now is for the frame buffer (no HW accel from linux).  I'm pestering two people I know who are involved in PS3 developer tools at Sony, but so far it sounds like GPU support is going to be a ways off (boo).

NVIDIA only releases binary drivers for Linux and they've only released them for Intel x86 compatible CPUs so far. If they haven't released any PPC drivers to date, it would take some serious strong-arming from Sony to get them to cough one up now.

[Quinton]

NVIDIA only releases binary drivers for Linux and they've only released them for Intel x86 compatible CPUs so far. If they haven't released any PPC drivers to date, it would take some serious strong-arming from Sony to get them to cough one up now.

An NVIDIA OpenGL library for PS3 native almost certainly exists (as, to my understanding, Sony provides those bindings as part of their devkit).  The big question is: is Sony willing to talk them into releasing it for the Linux side of the world?  This is assuming Sony doesn't want to intentionally limit the Linux side by restricting the GPU to being just a big 'ol expensive framebuffer.

-Q

[Engels]

This stuff confuses me. Does this mean that if I build a FC5 box I can go out and buy a PS3 game and run it on my PC? It doesn't look that way. Seems you can load FC5 on your PS3 hardware. Why anyone would want to do this is utterly beyond me.

[Quinton]

This stuff confuses me. Does this mean that if I build a FC5 box I can go out and buy a PS3 game and run it on my PC?

It's more the other way around.

You can repartition the PS3 HDD (using builtin tools) to make space available for a second OS.  Then you can install Linux (FC5-PPC edition for example) on that second partition and boot it.  You can always boot back to the normal PS3 OS.  Linux has no access to the PS3 OS part of the hard drive and currently cannot make use of the graphics acceleration features (the RSX chip basically is used just for a framebuffer).

Why this is interesting: Even without GPU access, this thing should be plenty fast enough for being a Linux PVR box, run emulators, generally dink around with as a fancy 64bit Linux system with a bunch of DSP/PPC crossbreed cores (the SPEs).  If they actually provide GPU access, then Linux on PS3 becomes a pretty slick platform for indie game development -- access to just about all the hardware.

-Q

[Trippy]

This stuff confuses me. Does this mean that if I build a FC5 box I can go out and buy a PS3 game and run it on my PC? It doesn't look that way.

No, different OSes and a generic PPC machine like an old Mac or IBM workstation won't have the Cell chip or other specialized hardware. And even if IBM released a Cell-based workstation you can bet the PS3 OS and hardware has copy protection/DRM restrictions up the wazoo and will only run on a real PS3.

Seems you can load FC5 on your PS3 hardware. Why anyone would want to do this is utterly beyond me.

Because it's there?

[Trippy]

NVIDIA only releases binary drivers for Linux and they've only released them for Intel x86 compatible CPUs so far. If they haven't released any PPC drivers to date, it would take some serious strong-arming from Sony to get them to cough one up now.

An NVIDIA OpenGL library for PS3 native almost certainly exists (as, to my understanding, Sony provides those bindings as part of their devkit).  The big question is: is Sony willing to talk them into releasing it for the Linux side of the world?  This is assuming Sony doesn't want to intentionally limit the Linux side by restricting the GPU to being just a big 'ol expensive framebuffer.

Unless the PS3 OS is based on Linux (which it might be) the driver to kernel API will be different which means NVIDIA would have to do some work to get it to work with the Linux kernel.

[Quinton]

An NVIDIA OpenGL library for PS3 native almost certainly exists (as, to my understanding, Sony provides those bindings as part of their devkit).  The big question is: is Sony willing to talk them into releasing it for the Linux side of the world?  This is assuming Sony doesn't want to intentionally limit the Linux side by restricting the GPU to being just a big 'ol expensive framebuffer.

Unless the PS3 OS is based on Linux (which it might be) the driver to kernel API will be different which means NVIDIA would have to do some work to get it to work with the Linux kernel.

I'm pretty certain the PS3 OS is completely proprietary.

I was operating under the assumption that they'd actually do the heavy lifting in userspace and a kernel driver would only be needed to manage physical resources / map memory / route interrupts.  I *thought* that was how they did it on Linux-x86, but a quick look at the modules on my desktop machine here shows that nvidia.ko is 5MB (good gods!), so I guess I was wrong there.

*If* they don't do it as a kernel driver, it's quite possibly a pretty straight port (and obviously already runs on PPC64).  If it is integrated with the PS3 OS kernel, then, yeah, not so simple.

However, as I am always told by the HW guys whenever they want me to work around something, "It's just software."  If Sony wanted to make it available somehow, I expect they could.  Might not be worth it for them to do so for a number of reasons, but I doubt technical difficulty is a big one.  Staffing, which is related, could be -- if they're short handed engineering-wise they could just lack people to devote to a non-essential project like that.

- Q

[Trippy]

Unless the PS3 OS is based on Linux (which it might be) the driver to kernel API will be different which means NVIDIA would have to do some work to get it to work with the Linux kernel.

I'm pretty certain the PS3 OS is completely proprietary.

Yeah come to think it there is no way it would be cause otherwise Sony would be forced to make the source code diffs available thanks to the GPL.

[stray]

Doesn't X take a long time to draw without GPU support?

The only thing worse than running Linux is running Linux on hardware that doesn't want to run it.

[Trippy]

Doesn't X take a long time to draw without GPU support?

No. Some of the new fancy schmancy window managers have wizbang effects (copying Apple's OS X Aqua) that require a 3D card but your standard window manager doesn't need or use any of that stuff. My first Linux box ran tvwm and Motif fine on an ET4000 card which is an ancient 2D chipset (no 3D capabilities at all).

[Lum]

The problem with repurposing a PS3 as a PVR is that currently the only way Myth (the Linux PVR app) can handle HD is through over-the-air TV reception. Currently the only working true HD PVRs are the new (and really expensive) Tivo Series 3 and some cable-converter-PVR combos (I have one of those, and it really, really sucks).

[stray]

I'm using an Explorer 8000HD box through Time Warner. Seems fine to me. What do you have?

[Yegolev]

Linux + POWER = /sadf

But this is actually pretty cool from a hacking standpoint.

[schild]

Apparently Snes9x already works on the PS3 - or so I'm told. I give it until New Years day for the PS3 to become the Must Have box for homebrew shit. Now they just need to completely open the PSP so we can stop with this workaround trash.

[Yegolev]

For once, I might be as excited as Schild.  I can't get worked up over PSP homebrew, but PS3?  That's a selling point, bitches.

[Quinton]

Linux + POWER = /sadf

Could be worse... could be AIX for PS3...

But this is actually pretty cool from a hacking standpoint.

Really the only downside is lack of access to the RSX.  I hope Sony provides something there eventually -- they had some graphics acceleration support for ps2linux, as I recall. 

Lack of 3D acceleration support puts a damper on more modern homebrew stuff, but this platform should totally rock for emulators, video playback, and other goodies.

It's interesting to compare the MSFT vs Sony strategy here:
- Sony went open platform and lets you just throw whatever OS you want on it and protects content using a hypervisor. No access to hw graphics features as yet.  Free.  You can share your software as source, binary, whatever.
- Microsoft provides a tools solution that lets you develop managed C# content for 360 and actually run it directly on the 360 with hw graphics access, etc.  It does cost $99/year and currently you can only share your created content as source code.

I'm curious to see if Sony provides a homebrew path to making actual native titles.  The gameOS likely uses the same hypervisor and if anything is possibly more secure (from a content protection standpoint) than linux.  I enjoy the linux hackery, but being able to write code that people who don't install linux can run (likely the vast majority of ps3 users) would be a blast.

-Q

[Trippy]

For once, I might be as excited as Schild.  I can't get worked up over PSP homebrew, but PS3?  That's a selling point, bitches.

Why? You have a PC.

[Strazos]

Homebrew on a console is actually much less of a selling point to most people than you think it is.

[Morfiend]

PS3 is still way overrated.

[stray]

But pretty cool nonetheless.

Definitely not because of Linux though.

[Engels]

Can someone please explain to me the logic here? Anyone playing games on a PS3 isn't going to be intelligent enough to load Linux anyway!
 
/runs!

[stray]

Can someone please explain to me the logic here? Anyone playing games on a PS3 isn't going to be intelligent bored enough to load Linux anyway!

Fixed

[Yegolev]

For once, I might be as excited as Schild.  I can't get worked up over PSP homebrew, but PS3?  That's a selling point, bitches.

Why? You have a PC.

Upstairs.

[Yegolev]

Homebrew on a console is actually much less of a selling point to most people than you think it is.

Selling point for me, asscake.  I hardly give a shit about other people.

[stray]

[edit] Err. Nevermind.

[Quinton]

snes9x builds pretty much out of the box on ps3linux.

You need to throw the following in snes9x/unix/unix.cpp to get it to build, as the system headers don't seem to define these:

typedef unsigned long kernel_ulong_t;
#define BITS_PER_LONG 32

It's getting stuttery sound and the framerate jumps around in the 45-60 rate, unlike my x86 linux machine and macmini where it stays pegged at 60/60.  There's no ppc-native assembly emulator core (unlike x86 and sh4), but I don't think that's the issue since it's only using about 28% cpu (and the X server is using 8%).

Still, kinda neat.  Probably won't be all that much work for somebody to get it cleaned up for ps3.

-Q

[bhodi]

I'd like to replace my xbox media center with a ps3 media center someday.

[Quinton]

I'd like to replace my xbox media center with a ps3 media center someday.

The tools and driver support available today should be enough to build such a thing on ps3linux.  While the GPU would be neat for cheap effects, there should be plenty of cycles between the PPE and 6 SPEs to handle video decode, etc. 

I'm hoping to replace my mac mini (which I use for media playback and emulator stuff) with the ps3.

The real trick, I think is for people to think embedded linux and consider dumping X and a lot of heavy toolkits and work directly with /dev/fb0 (which is double buffered) and make heavy use of the SPEs for accelerating video decode.

I'm hoping to find some time to hack on this over the holidays.  ffmpeg builds and runs just fine on the ps3, which seems like a decent starting point.

- Q

[Big Gulp]

Considering that I already have my 360 networked to my computer, and my computer already has an HDMI cable leading to the TV, what purpose would this serve?

Granted, I'm not the norm, but there are easier ways to create a media center than slapping Linux on a PS3.

[Sky]

I'm using an Explorer 8000HD box through Time Warner. Seems fine to me. What do you have?

Yes.

The Corporate Overlords have deemed that doing this on your PC is a Very Bad Thing. I looked into the whole 'home theater pc' thing and it's frankly garbage if you have an hdtv. DVDs are ok with a good scaler (ATI is not great, but it's passable), but HD content is out. When prices become reasonable, I'll go for a combo BluRay/HD-DVD drive for my pc, since my monitor supports HDCP, but that's at least a year or two away.

[bhodi]

Considering that I already have my 360 networked to my computer, and my computer already has an HDMI cable leading to the TV, what purpose would this serve?

Granted, I'm not the norm, but there are easier ways to create a media center than slapping Linux on a PS3.

Probably none for you. My computer is upstairs, and my (regular) xbox is downstairs hooked up to my big tv and stereo system. They are both networked to my server w/ a samba share. I torrent. Yep, I just admitted it. I watch things that I download off the intarweb. I move them to my server and go downstairs to watch them on my big screen tv with XBMC.

Unfortunately my xbox is getting old, and I'm going to need to replace it soonish. 360 is crippled in terms of codecs and won't connect to shares anyway from what I understand. I don't want a computer in my living room, but I will eventually get a ps3 in a year or so once the hype has died down.

Edit: A thought just occurred to me.

1.  Techies convince management to let them run linux
2.  Sony waits until some fairly nifty products come out of homebrew (XBMC, who knows what else)
3.  Sony hires homebrew makers
4.  Re-branded homebrew program is released through Sony's online service
5.  Sony does what Microsoft never could -- takes over the living room and provides a nice multimedia experience.

Of course, Sony's hate for all things and formats non-proprietary may get in the way of this.. but it's an interesting idea.

[Quinton]

Unfortunately my xbox is getting old, and I'm going to need to replace it soonish. 360 is crippled in terms of codecs and won't connect to shares anyway from what I understand. I don't want a computer in my living room, but I will eventually get a ps3 in a year or so once the hype has died down.

I expect in 6-12 months there will be some halfway decent linux solutions for media stuff on ps3.  Almost all the pieces needed exist today.  Most of the trick will be performance tuning to make the most of the PS3's somewhat unique hardware.

Edit: A thought just occurred to me.

1.  Techies convince management to let them run linux
2.  Sony waits until some fairly nifty products come out of homebrew (XBMC, who knows what else)
3.  Sony hires homebrew makers
4.  Re-branded homebrew program is released through Sony's online service
5.  Sony does what Microsoft never could -- takes over the living room and provides a nice multimedia experience.

Of course, Sony's hate for all things and formats non-proprietary may get in the way of this.. but it's an interesting idea.

My theory was this was their opening for indie gamesdev -- let people show their chops on the open and unsupported platform and then Sony can approach anyone who does something really stunning about publishing.  Lack of GPU access does put a bit of damper on this theory, though maybe they'll fix that.

- Q

[Trippy]

My theory was this was their opening for indie gamesdev -- let people show their chops on the open and unsupported platform and then Sony can approach anyone who does something really stunning about publishing.  Lack of GPU access does put a bit of damper on this theory, though maybe they'll fix that.

Why would Sony want to publish a game that can only run under Linux? That would force people to have to install Linux on their boxes to play that game. Microsoft's strategy is a much better one for indie developers.

[bhodi]

Why would Sony want to publish a game that can only run under Linux? That would force people to have to install Linux on their boxes to play that game. Microsoft's strategy is a much better one for indie developers.

Presumably you would just download "something" from their version of xbox live, call it a "application enabler" and package it right in. You don't need to call it  linux.