Dumb question time: XP or Vista RC2?

[Venkman]

My existing drive started acting up, so I bought a new one. Now the existing drive seems fine, but I've got this new one.

I've considered playing it safe and installing XP on the new drive, relegating the existing one to stuff I don't care about, or just removing it. However, I'm also fairly stoked about Vista, and understand Vista RC2 is available. Plus, installing the WinXP I got with this rig now means patching four and a half years worth of crap. I did that with Everquest 1 once. Once.

So, questions:

1. Can the average yokel just download and install Vista RC2, or do you need to be invited by MS, be a developer or something?

2. If all I want to do is play games and do the usual stuff like banking, browsing and what not, is it safe now to go to Vista? I can hack the occasional crash and some legacy title I can't play anymore. I am primarily interested in ensuring I can still play WoW, DDO and whatever upcoming MMO I feel like trying. My computer is old (April 2002) but I'm fairly confident it'll manage Vista without some of the pretty well enough to be usable.

Stick with the old and known or try the new?

[geldonyetich]

From what I understand, Vista may have standing incompatibility issues with much current and future WinXP developed products.  So, I'd steer clear for a little while longer.  But, to be honest, I didn't heavily research this so I could be wrong.  For that matter, to be less honest, I'm usually never wrong about anything.

[Numtini]

I tried Vista at work. I eventually reformatted the drive and went back to XP. It is really incompatible and then there are a lot of programs that won't install just because they check for the OS on install and don't recognize Vista. I found it was missing a lot of device drivers as well.

Even when I got things working or found substitutions or workarounds, I found it really slow and I thought the interface was cluttered and confusing. Maybe I'm getting old and conservative, but I just can't think of anything an OS should do that XP doesn't do better than Vista.

[Yoru]

I've been dealing with Vista with nearly a year now. RC2 is far and away better than the builds we had in March.

Go with XP, though. There's still a lot of incompatibilities and incomplete drivers, and I expect it to remain that way until at least 6 months after Vista is actually released. (c.f. Windows 2000 launch.)

It's also still abominably slow, although past experience with the XP RCs -> XP final version showed that turning off all the debug logging and crap they have in there for the RCs improves it quite a bit.

There's also no real compelling reason to upgrade yet, since most developers won't be shipping exclusively for DX10 for a few years. Unless you really like the bundled 3D chess program, I suppose.

[Engels]

Does Direct X 9 stuff even work on Vista now? I know it didn't back in March.

[Big Gulp]

Does Direct X 9 stuff even work on Vista now? I know it didn't back in March.

Yep.  It works.

And it's nice to check out if you want to see the shiny, which I actually like quite a bit better than OSX's (I can't stand their dock or the way OSX defaults to opening up windows not maximized).  Also, window button+tab is a thing of pure beauty.

But yeah, right now it's slower, I still don't like explorer, and there are compatibility issues.  Just to check it out I'd recommend installing it, but you're going to want to reformat and go back to XP, guaranteed.

[Lt.Dan]

There's a way of patching your Windows install disk with SP2.  Sadly I can't remember what it's called but basically you copy the indtall disk to you hard-drive, download a decent sized patch, patch the HD version of the CD, then burn an autoloading CD with SP2 on it.  Worked fine for me when I upgraded my HD.  Take out old HD, insert new, boot from CD-ROm and install.

Of course, suitable disclaimers apply.

[Venkman]

Ok, thanks all. WinXP it is.

And thanks for that info Lt.Dan. It's enough to dump into Google :)

[Venkman]

There's a way of patching your Windows install disk with SP2.  Sadly I can't remember what it's called but basically you copy the indtall disk to you hard-drive, download a decent sized patch, patch the HD version of the CD, then burn an autoloading CD with SP2 on it.  Worked fine for me when I upgraded my HD.  Take out old HD, insert new, boot from CD-ROm and install.

Think I found it:

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/windowsxp_sp2_slipstream.asp

Hehe, love the term "slipstream". Didn't like Trek Voyager much, but thought that mode of travel was interesting.

Geek++

[Yegolev]

Good info.  Since I'm about due to format/reinstall, I decided to save a few bucks and buy the non-SP2 version of XP Pro rather than wait for Vista (who knows when that will be usable).  I'm using Cheetah CD/DVD burning software but I expect no problems.

This is probably a good place to ask this: does the File and Settings Transfer Wizard do what I think it does?  Make a file that I can import into a fresh install of XP and avoid a lot of reconfiguring?  I'll be doing this on two computers before 2007.

[sinij]

I really don't like where Vista going - DRM support, 2 times per purchase install limit, shutting down your system if MS decides its not 'genuine'. Win XP 64 will do just fine for me, A LOT of people still run 2000, so I don’t see XP going away for at least 8 more years.

[Miasma]

I was running Vista RC2 for a while at home and I really, really dislike it.  The only good thing about it is how it looks, all the windowing is quite nice looking now.  I don't really care how my OS looks though, I just want it to function well and I can't stand how Vista functions.  It was like I had to get into an armwrestling match with the computer every time I wanted to do something, the OS just got in my damn way.  It's hard to describe.  The final straw was when I tried to connect to my router using a straight IP address and it wouldn't let me, I imagine it was some security "feature" but after fighting with a dozen other things I just formatted the drive and went back to XP.

I'm kinda or dreading its release, I'm seriously considering switching my primary OS over it.  I might just have a Vista partition for games but do everything else in *shudder*, linux.  After many years of looking down on macs I might just buy one.  Did they ever manage to get a second button on their mouse  ?

[Big Gulp]

I might just have a Vista partition for games but do everything else in *shudder*, linux.  After many years of looking down on macs I might just buy one.  Did they ever manage to get a second button on their mouse  ?

I was thinking almost the same, exact thing.  Linux, though, will never be ready as a good desktop OS, it's just not designed to be.  For basic stuff, sure, it works fine.  Want to edit a movie and burn a DVD?  It's theoretically possible, but just a pain in the ass.  And on, and on, and on.

I've actually been looking at a MacMini for my day to day actually useful stuff, and just keeping this box around for games.  And really, since I've gotten my 360 the amount of gaming I do on the PC has dropped off dramatically anyway.  It's really starting to look like a viable option to go Mac for me.

[stray]

I've actually been looking at a MacMini for my day to day actually useful stuff, and just keeping this box around for games.  And really, since I've gotten my 360 the amount of gaming I do on the PC has dropped off dramatically anyway.  It's really starting to look like a viable option to go Mac for me.

Some of the iMacs are better PC gaming machines than what many people currently have now. Better than my box for sure (I've hit my ceiling with the new Ghost Recon set at medium-low. An iMac would do better). They could serve you well for both day to day stuff, as well as the occassional PC game for the next 3 years or so.

The mini wouldn't be that bad at this either if they only had a better graphics chip.

[Chenghiz]

Wait, there's a limit to how many times they let you install Vista? Is there a way to reset that, or do you just have to go buy another copy?

[Trippy]

Wait, there's a limit to how many times they let you install Vista? Is there a way to reset that, or do you just have to go buy another copy?

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=156

[Venkman]

Erp, that bites. You mean MS would prevent someone who's on their third unfortunate hard drive wipe? Bogus.

Did they ever manage to get a second button on their mouse

Yea, saw one in an Apple Store a few weeks back. It doesn't look like a two-button, but in typical Apple fashion, it functions awesome and is intuitive (instead of showing buttons, you basically press left side or right side front of mouse. It's a toggle thingy).

I ended up just installing my four year old WinXP disk. Actually only took 25 minutes to get everything to SP2 and beyond, and .NET2. Easy enough. Now going through the process of installing everything else including WoW. Luckily there two different gaming mags shipped a Trial WoW disc in Sept 04. So I only have a year's worth to patch. Way very glad I've kept every patch EXE download since launch, so don't have to torrent nor Fileplanet gigs of date.

[Trippy]

Erp, that bites. You mean MS would prevent someone who's on their third unfortunate hard drive wipe? Bogus.

No you misunderstand. You can reinstall Vista on the machine that it's licensed on as many times as you want. If you want to transfer the license to a "new" machine you can only do that once with Vista where you could do it an unlimited number of times with earlier versions of Windows.

[Big Gulp]

Erp, that bites. You mean MS would prevent someone who's on their third unfortunate hard drive wipe? Bogus.

No you misunderstand. You can reinstall Vista on the machine that it's licensed on as many times as you want. If you want to transfer the license to a "new" machine you can only do that once with Vista where you could do it an unlimited number of times with earlier versions of Windows.

And they define a "new" machine as a new motherboard and CPU.  Of course, I expect it'll be the same way it was with XP; a little wrangling with the CSR on the phone ought to get you reactivated if you find yourself shut down.

[Venkman]

Thanks, that's what I was wondering, nuances. Suppose I use my old hard drive with Vista with a newer mobo and CPU? That sorta stuff.

[Venkman]

Last question:

Old drive does not have one of those plastic tabs to use as a jumper. I want to force the drive to be a Slave and think I need to set the jumper to the right location. The new drive does have that tab so I made it Master. Everything is fun as long as I don't have both drives connected :)

I would rather use the old drive as a slave for a bit. Do I just go buy a tab somewhere/somehow?

[Big Gulp]

I would rather use the old drive as a slave for a bit. Do I just go buy a tab somewhere/somehow?

No Idea.  I always have a stash of dead/obsolete HD's laying around that I can cannibalize for jumpers if need be...  Do you have any nerd friends?  That'd probably be your best bet for getting an old jumper.  Failing that, I suppose I could mail you one (I will charge you for the whopping postage  ).

[sinij]

And they define a "new" machine as a new motherboard and CPU.  Of course, I expect it'll be the same way it was with XP; a little wrangling with the CSR on the phone ought to get you reactivated if you find yourself shut down.

This time they actually nearly-shut your OS down if its deemed non-genuine.

[SurfD]

There's a way of patching your Windows install disk with SP2.  Sadly I can't remember what it's called but basically you copy the indtall disk to you hard-drive, download a decent sized patch, patch the HD version of the CD, then burn an autoloading CD with SP2 on it.  Worked fine for me when I upgraded my HD.  Take out old HD, insert new, boot from CD-ROm and install.

Think I found it:

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/windowsxp_sp2_slipstream.asp

Hehe, love the term "slipstream". Didn't like Trek Voyager much, but thought that mode of travel was interesting.

Geek++

Im going to one up you and go Geek+++ here.  The Definitve Unattended Windows Install Website.   They have it divided into various sections.  Beginners level covers your basic slipstreaming of Service Packs and Monthly updates.  Intermediate covers adding in your latest drivers and having your unattended installation install programs as well.  Advanced covers damn near everything under the sun, from custom desktop layouts to pre setting registry values on install.   And if you cant find an acceptable answer on their tutorial pages, chances are the forums can answer your questions.

[Trippy]

Old drive does not have one of those plastic tabs to use as a jumper. I want to force the drive to be a Slave and think I need to set the jumper to the right location. The new drive does have that tab so I made it Master. Everything is fun as long as I don't have both drives connected :)

I would rather use the old drive as a slave for a bit. Do I just go buy a tab somewhere/somehow?

Does your drive have a "Cable Select" jumper setting that doesn't require any jumpers installed?

[Venkman]

My new drive has a jumper for cable select. No worries, Big Gulp mentioned cannabalizing an old drive and those I have plenty of.

And SurfD: you win :) THanks for the link!

[Trippy]

Microsoft changes Vista license to allow for unlimited license transfers

[Engels]

We respect the time and expense you go to in customizing, building and rebuilding your hardware and we heard you that the previous terms were seen as an impediment to that -- it’s for that reason we’ve made this change.  I hope that this change provides the flexibility you need, and gives you more reason to be excited about the upcoming retail release of our new operating system.

Redmond hath frozen over.

/faint

[Sky]

Holy shit.

Then again, I have to be suspicious of the uninstall part. I hope it's not some laborious uninstall process every time you swap hardware. Then again, I'm a dirty pirate because I don't want to shell out $$$ for a full OS license to run XP for five minutes a month on my mac. There's no way MS simply stopped being greedy pigfuckers. You know, because they are almost bankrupt because of those filthy pirates.

I also wonder if they'll finally consider libraries as non-profit entities, like everyone else does (because we are). http://techsoup.org/ We can get any software except MS stuff, I was really looking forward to $8 XP licenses, best I can do is $75. Thanks, cocksuckers. I can freely install Mac OS on any machine, guess which OS I'll go with?

Bah.

[Yegolev]

Well, yeah it's not an uncharacteristic move.  I wasn't going to buy Vista simply due to the licensing, and I expect everyone involved with testing said the same thing.  I'm still suspicious of it, but at least I'm no longer outright afraid of it.

[raydeen]

15. REASSIGN TO ANOTHER DEVICE.
 a. Software Other than Windows Anytime Upgrade.  You may uninstall the software and
install it on another device for your use. You may not do so to share this license between
devices.
 b. Windows Anytime Upgrade Software.  The first user of the software may reassign the
license to another device one time, but only if the license terms of the software you upgraded
from allows reassignment.

If I read this right, you'll be able to transfer Vista unlimited times using the original key that came with the box. If you should upgrade though from Basic to Premium or whatever, you can only do it once. Sound right?

[Yegolev]

Sounds like I'll be generating keys no matter which MS OS I end up using.

[Engels]

I guess it depends on what version of Vista has the Windows Anytime Upgrade Software, which really is a misnomer. It should be called "Windows One Time Upgrade Software", if I read that correctly.

If you're running a home-bought verson of XP that doesn't allow reassignment, then even the Vista Upgrade package won't let you transfer to another machine since your original XP software doesn't allow reassignment.

In other words, the upgrade bundle is for your machine only that currently runs XP. If you want to both upgrade your machine and your OS, you will have to buy the Vista full install software, which is at least 3 times more expensive than the upgrade version. That's how its been done in the past, anyway.

[HaemishM]

All this talk of licensing and such just convinves me that I'm not buying Vista until I buy a new computer that comes with it installed. This other shit sounds like too much goddamn trouble.

[geldonyetich]

Last I heard, they haven't even got Windows XP running in 64-bit for most applications yet.  64-Bit CPU processors have been accessable by the average constomer for how long - 2 years?