Gold Farming 900 Million a year Industry

[Strazos]

I coudln't even be bothered to read that....sorry.

[WindupAtheist]

You know what, I just don't care.  I'm not going to boycott the world while I wait for every single worker in rural Bumfuckistan to somehow magically achieve First World income and conditions.

[Venkman]

Deleted & Edited for clarity

I like Fruit Loops

Your first version was better.

Who cares if only a few read it? You raised some good points, even if I don't necessarily agree with them all. MMORPGs are not just games. They've spawned a billion-dollar side-business for some of the reasons you mentioned. Some may still want to bracket MMORPGs into some sort of time-filler passtime activity, but that's old school thinking inappropriate for reality.

[Strazos]

Sorry, they're still games. Simply games.

[Venkman]

Eh, nevermind.

[HaemishM]

I've yet to read a quote from a Chinese farmer that said, "my job totally sucks, I'm chained to this desk and forced to play WoW for low pay."

I'd imagine the "Work as long as I say or you won't get your ID back" is pretty close to being exploitative. The ID being the only way these citizens can get anything.

[Venkman]

I've yet to read a quote from a Chinese farmer that said, "my job totally sucks, I'm chained to this desk and forced to play WoW for low pay."

You do know the Chinese government has a little more, err, "pull" with what their citizenry says right?

I wouldn't ever expect to read, "my job totally sucks, I'm {adverb} to {noun} and forced to {do something} for low pay" from anyone over there who actually is.

[Xanthippe]

I've yet to read a quote from a Chinese farmer that said, "my job totally sucks, I'm chained to this desk and forced to play WoW for low pay."

You do know the Chinese government has a little more, err, "pull" with what their citizenry says right?

I wouldn't ever expect to read, "my job totally sucks, I'm {adverb} to {noun} and forced to {do something} for low pay" from anyone over there who actually is.

Now you are suggesting that the Chinese government forces people to work for gold farmers?  What exactly are you saying?

We should be against RMT because of the exploitative nature of the gold farming employment culture. 

Prove that it is exploitative - not by the standards of the types of jobs that exist in the United States, but by their real alternatives in China.  Are Chinese gold farmers exploited more than Chinese textile workers or Chinese factory workers or Chinese agricultural farmers or any of the myriad other products that are exported to the United States? 

If not, then I expect that you fully boycott and rail against these things as well.

The stories I've read have tended to be along these lines:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14871320/site/newsweek/page/2/

"I think it's a cool job, getting paid to play games," says Zhang, who collected about $170 on his best day of gold farming but typically earns only a few U.S. dollars during each eight-hour shift. "I didn't even graduate from junior high. I never think about the future ... I don't care, as long as I can make some money."

I haven't read any about employers who enslave their farmers or keep their ID cards.  Maybe you have.  If so, show them to me.

[Rhonstet]

Prove that it is exploitative - not by the standards of the types of jobs that exist in the United States, but by their real alternatives in China.  Are Chinese gold farmers exploited more than Chinese textile workers or Chinese factory workers or Chinese agricultural farmers or any of the myriad other products that are exported to the United States?

I feel the burden of proof rests on the industry that chooses to operate in a closed society with tight media controls. 

As for the exploitiveness, my issue isn't that Chinese people are being exploited.  That's tragic, sure, but not exactly news. 

My issue is that gamers and developers are being exploited by practices that require RMT.  Companies running the games in question haven't set up an acceptable model to tap that market directly.  I'd rather pay Blizzard $5 than pay IGE $50: at least that way I would have fewer suspicions about RMT fees going into untaxed, if not potentially criminal-front, overseas companies. 

[HaemishM]

Prove that it is exploitative - not by the standards of the types of jobs that exist in the United States, but by their real alternatives in China.  Are Chinese gold farmers exploited more than Chinese textile workers or Chinese factory workers or Chinese agricultural farmers or any of the myriad other products that are exported to the United States? 

If not, then I expect that you fully boycott and rail against these things as well.

Generally speaking, one can no longer boycott Chinese-made goods unless they are well off, in which case you wouldn't be buying Chinese made goods anyway. I rail against the corporate systems that fucked their own pooches so badly they HAD to use Chinese labor to make their products cheaply.

But no, RMT sweat shops are no better than other Chinese sweat shops, and no more or less exploitative. That makes them better how exactly? It's still exploitation.

I haven't read any about employers who enslave their farmers or keep their ID cards.  Maybe you have.  If so, show them to me.

I have no source I can remember, so will concede that part of the argument to you. Can I just boycott RMT chinese farming operations because they are sleazy as Wal-Mart execs?

[damijin]

The Chinese Government does control the media still, it's true. But it's not like it was 20 years ago. The internet has changed things in China, I've talked to farmers about things like Tienamen Square, democracy, their government... I'm even close friends with a farmer who is a college graduate and reads books published by a well known socialist from Taiwan.

If farmers hated their jobs, you wouldn't have to look too far to hear about it. The fact is, most of them do this because it is easy work, it's an easier job, it's a funner job, it's better than what their parents did at their age. But, I too have heard about the ID card thing, though I cant cite it and I only heard it second hand via translation from a German clan mate because it was in the German media. I wish I could find the article...

But even still, I suspect those are more isolated incidents. If it were something widespread we would hear more about it. China isn't as tight lipped as it used to be.

My issue is that gamers and developers are being exploited by practices that require RMT.  Companies running the games in question haven't set up an acceptable model to tap that market directly.  I'd rather pay Blizzard $5 than pay IGE $50: at least that way I would have fewer suspicions about RMT fees going into untaxed, if not potentially criminal-front, overseas companies.

Why so much hate for emerging industry! :(
Do you get up in the morning and say "How can I murder capitalism today?"

(just fucking with you, but seriously, do you only want blizzard to be in control so that it will be cheaper? DataGod really did bring up some good points. Globalization isn't just some fancy word people throw around when referencing the future. It's real, it's now. If you can come up with a way to kill an industry that is apparently $900 million strong after about 4 years of existence... well... GL m8)

[Venkman]

Now you are suggesting that the Chinese government forces people to work for gold farmers? What exactly are you saying?

I'm suggesting that one reason you might not hear any complaints is because the Chinese government controls the flow of information within and outside of their country. I have no idea who's forced to gold farm or not. I do know though that gold farming is not restricted to that country, which is why I haven't bothered commenting on that.

As to your other comments, they're based on the premise that I somehow strongly am for or against RMT, which is false. I don't care either way. It's more an academic curiosity to me, a form of emergent behavior people have collectively turned into big business.

But others have covered this better in subsequent (and earlier) posts.

[Xanthippe]

Just to reiterate, my point is that exploitation is a poor reason to be against RMT.   There are good reasons to be against it - I'm against it, in fact - but that's not one of them.

As far as globalization is concerned, I'm far from convinced that it's an evil thing.  I like being able to pay the same price for a pair of jeans for my kids that I paid when I was in high school 30 years ago.  And being able to buy good bath towels for the same price I paid 20 years ago.  And I bet the people making those things are better off than their parents were 20 and 30 years ago - who were probably engaged in food production or some other government enterprise.

People certainly could boycott Chinese goods, if they like.  Of course, it means not shopping at Walmart and probably means paying ten times what one would for an import, but American made goods can be found, even if handcrafted.  But for a premium.  I'm hardpressed to think of an item that can't be found without buying a Chinese import, in fact.

Are there problems due to globalization? Sure.  Were there problems before globalization? Yes, mostly worse.  It's not a choice between this thing here that's bad and that thing over there that's good.  It's a choice between these problems or those problems.  I think things are better now than they've ever been.

[HaemishM]

My issue is that gamers and developers are being exploited by practices that require RMT.  Companies running the games in question haven't set up an acceptable model to tap that market directly.  I'd rather pay Blizzard $5 than pay IGE $50: at least that way I would have fewer suspicions about RMT fees going into untaxed, if not potentially criminal-front, overseas companies.

Why so much hate for emerging industry! :(
Do you get up in the morning and say "How can I murder capitalism today?"

Yes, you got a problem with that? Capitalism is fine. Unfettered, assraping capitalism like my country is deifying is not. I'd murder that shit on a daily basis if I could.

(just fucking with you, but seriously, do you only want blizzard to be in control so that it will be cheaper? DataGod really did bring up some good points. Globalization isn't just some fancy word people throw around when referencing the future. It's real, it's now. If you can come up with a way to kill an industry that is apparently $900 million strong after about 4 years of existence... well... GL m8)

Don't know about you, but I want Blizzard to be in charge of it because: 1) they are a responsible business. They will back up the transactions and protect against fraud as best they can because they can't disappear when they fuck too many people over. They can't dodge a lawsuit. 2) They made the game, they deserve the scratch. Shut-in fucktards and internet mogul wannabe pricks do not deserve it. These fuckers are one step above criminality and they have already fucked one industry almost beyond recognition (the dot bombers). I don't need them to do that to MMOG's.

[Strazos]

Emerging industry my ass. They are simply parasites. Barnacles on the underside of a boat. Leeches.

Fuck their "industry."

[Nija]

Don't know about you, but I want Blizzard to be in charge of it ...

Man, the US government printing money bugs me. Blizzard printing money bugs me even more. They don't even have to print it out, just whip up a script real quick.

^sup

[HaemishM]

I'm fine with Blizzard printing their own money, so long as the RMT-servers are segregated from the non-RMT servers, like EQ2. If I as a customer can choose not to have that shit on my servers, I will.

[shiznitz]

Emerging industry my ass. They are simply parasites. Barnacles on the underside of a boat. Leeches.

Fuck their "industry."

This kind of economic "parasite" is everywhere in our economy, from used car salesmen to ebayers of out of print books. They all serve a need that isn't being filled by someone else for whatever reason. For some reason, this particular kind of parasite gets many gamers up in arms. Actually, the used car salesmen is a good analogy. I could scan the classifieds and spend several weekends test driving a dozen cars being sold by people I don't know or I can spend one afternoon at a car lot. The car salesmen saves me time even if he is a bit shady.

My gameplay has never been impacted by gold farmers (other than maybe in inflated item prices but that is unidentifiable). I have occasionally bought and sold items and currency in UO, EQ1 and EQ2 over the years. Buying things to save play time and selling things when I quit a game. The selling has always returned more than the monthly fees spent playing the game and you cannot have sellers without buyers so I happily take my money and move on.

IMy wife recently met a nanny who used to be a public school first grade teacher.  A friend of the teacher saw the teacher's W2 a few years ago and said "you could make triple as a full time nanny" and the friend was, in fact, correct. The higher one's earning power (in this case the nanny's employer) the more one will pay to save a unit of time.

I would love to see a study on value creation in real terms some day.  What is the $/hour someone can actually earn playing these games? What is the time actually worth?

What I am trying to demonstrate is that the animosity that RMT generates is out of whack with the fact that the same economic realities driving RMT are at play in economic life everywhere.

[HaemishM]

What I am trying to demonstrate is that the animosity that RMT generates is out of whack with the fact that the same economic realities driving RMT are at play in economic life everywhere.

Read that again. The truth points to itself.

But if you still don't understand it, many of us play games to ESCAPE real-life economic realiities. That's why it's called escapist entertainment. Injecting that sort of mercantile douchebaggery into our game is like turning the page of a Bible only to have a giant penis shoved into your mouth. 

[shiznitz]

What I am trying to demonstrate is that the animosity that RMT generates is out of whack with the fact that the same economic realities driving RMT are at play in economic life everywhere.

Read that again. The truth points to itself.

But if you still don't understand it, many of us play games to ESCAPE real-life economic realiities. That's why it's called escapist entertainment. Injecting that sort of mercantile douchebaggery into our game is like turning the page of a Bible only to have a giant penis shoved into your mouth. 

Point well made, but is the expectation that the rules of the universe (excessive characterization, I admit) be suspended for this particular entertainment niche realistic? How many anti-RMT ranters use Kazaa or BitTorrent to avoid paying for product freely available in the marketplace? It is the same economic phenomenon at work.

[Venkman]

Yes. However, like any emergent parasitic industry, emotion about it is largely irrelevant.

RMTers don't bother me because, as a business, they above anyone else need to play by the rules. If they piss off enough people with their farming ways, they get turned in and shut down. Meanwhile, if they just go blithely about their business, few are the wiser.

The people that piss me off are generally just other players trying to cheat because they can advance faster that way. They aren't investing in a character to sell. They're just playing this game like they play any other, and aggravate people along the way.

[HaemishM]

What I am trying to demonstrate is that the animosity that RMT generates is out of whack with the fact that the same economic realities driving RMT are at play in economic life everywhere.

Read that again. The truth points to itself.

But if you still don't understand it, many of us play games to ESCAPE real-life economic realiities. That's why it's called escapist entertainment. Injecting that sort of mercantile douchebaggery into our game is like turning the page of a Bible only to have a giant penis shoved into your mouth. 

Point well made, but is the expectation that the rules of the universe (excessive characterization, I admit) be suspended for this particular entertainment niche realistic?

While the expectation may not be realist, it is certainly an expectation that SHOULD be made.

Look, there's two types of folks in the world. Those who cheat at Monopoly and those who don't. Those who don't hate RMT as a concept.

[Strazos]

Thanks Haemish. Personally, I thought the analogies using used books and used cars just didn't work. There's a difference between used goods and new goods in the marketplace. There is no functional difference between gold earned the "right' way, and gold that someone buys in a RMT.

[Venkman]

There is no functional difference between gold earned the "right' way, and gold that someone buys in a RMT.

Not really. The gold someone buys through RMT was originally earned the "right" way. The real problem here isn't RMTing. It's farming itself, an activity that is almost necessary for a certain type of player. RMTing allows players to cheat the farming sub-game, not the larger game itself.

That's the noise I hate, that need to sit at Tyr's Hand (in the old days) farming alongside all the other Farmers. Some of them were Farming to RMT. The rest were Farming just to be able to buy stuff they couldn't invest the five hours a day to go get.

Mitigate RMTing by mitigating Farming by mitigatng the need to invest a serious amount of sequential hours to a task in one sitting.

Or turn it into a business model the company itself can collect revenue on. Or said another way: build a game on microtransactions.

Which is already happening.

[Strazos]

You missed the point. I was simply shooting down the analogy between RMT and used books/cars. In the later, the new products have adavantages over the used product (condition, etc). Wheras in RMT, gold is gold. For the person buying, there's practically no reason NOT to buy, especially in a Diku game where gear is king.

Also, I don't think building a game based on microtransactions is any sort of solution. I thought the idea was that we just want to pay our sub and play the game, not get nickel and dimed for all kinds of silly shit.

[WindupAtheist]

[shiznitz]

I am not going to defend my analogies as accurate proxies for RMT but they do work to demonstrate that middle men serve an economic need.

Speaking to farming, what if every mob in a game had the same HUGE loot table regardless of "level"? How would people react to that? This would work better in a level-less system, certainly, but try and evaluate the concept independent of the class/advancement system.

What if players went to certain zones because they were fun and not because Vartex's Armor of Invulnerble Cunning dropped there?

[Venkman]

I was simply shooting down the analogy between RMT and used books/cars.

Oh. On that I agree.

I thought the idea was that we just want to pay our sub and play the game, not get nickel and dimed for all kinds of silly shit.

Funny how these conversations tend to pop up in different threads and then run together :) Making a game based on microtransactions wouldn't be the smart thing to do for us. Making a game on microtransactions is certainly feasible though, as many exist. They're just not for us. And it's been proven by those companies that make such games that the average revenue generated per player is far higher than it is in a flat-monthly-fee game. So what company wouldn't want to chase the extra bling?

If you make a flat-tax game, you're going up against WoW and hoping to grab some for yourself. If you try something different (ingame ad support, microtransactions, whatever), you get to define new rules. Maybe they'll work. Morat20 doesn't think so, but that's in the "who does Blizzard need to fear" thread...

[HaemishM]

Second Life is already making a decent bit of paper on microtransactions and RMT. The difference? They are making it by making virtual money and letting their customers buy things that other customers make. THAT'S the kind of RMT that works for Americans.

[Morat20]

Second Life is already making a decent bit of paper on microtransactions and RMT. The difference? They are making it by making virtual money and letting their customers buy things that other customers make. THAT'S the kind of RMT that works for Americans.

That I can see. :) Even then, don't they offer a tiered pricing plan? X per month gets you access plus + Y Second Life cash per month? I didn't think it was a swipe your card and convert real cash to fake cash when you're low thing.

Also, I note that there is a grindy way to achieve the same thing -- make things others want, and sell them. Or wait and slowly build up the small stipend free accounts get. You don't have to be rich to make it big.

[tazelbain]

Also, I don't think building a game based on microtransactions is any sort of solution. I thought the idea was that we just want to pay our sub and play the game, not get nickel and dimed for all kinds of silly shit.

I'd be rather be nickel and dimed, if I am only using a few dimes worth of content.  For example CoV, I'd love to play a couple hours a month, but I sure in hell ain't going to spend 15 bucks for that.  The current model is like a Chinese Buffet that you pay 60 bucks for a month pass.  Great Fracking Deal if you want eat Chinese every day. Me, I want variety and RMT gives you freedom to choose what you want and not force you to commit.  As people for who want to eat Chinese everyday?  Luckily there are plenty of who will pay for dinner every so often. So its not as expensive as you would think.

(Que Analogy Complaints)

[WayAbvPar]

(Que Analogy Complaints)

Or the Spelling Salamander (a cousin of the Grammar Snake).

[tazelbain]

Second Life is already making a decent bit of paper on microtransactions and RMT. The difference? They are making it by making virtual money and letting their customers buy things that other customers make. THAT'S the kind of RMT that works for Americans.

Again, Puzzle Pirates.  Mr. Money Bags doesn't just buy a bad ass cleaver.  He buys Doubloons from 3rings. He trades some of doubloons for in game cash with Mr. Pillager.  He then goes to Mr. Blacksmith and orders a cleaver with the rest of the Doubloons and the cash. Mr. Blacksmith then build the resources purchased from Ms. Pillager and Mrs. Trader and labor from Mr. Labor.  Mr. Money Bags gets his cleaver, and everyone got to play along.  So  much more interesting than just buying it from 3 rings.

Not a fan of systems that let people pull money out.  I have no interest in Second Job or playing with people who treat it as such.

Or the Spelling Salamander (a cousin of the Grammar Snake).

I come to accept that he and I are mortal enemies.

[Rhonstet]

These fuckers are one step above criminality

Actually, they are violating the EULA in nearly every game they harvest on. 

And I'm willing to bet that their actual earnings aren't being taxed, let alone reported. 

They ARE criminals.  There just hasn't been a decent court case to say so yet. 

Do you get up in the morning and say "How can I murder capitalism today?"

(just fucking with you, but seriously, do you only want blizzard to be in control so that it will be cheaper? DataGod really did bring up some good points. Globalization isn't just some fancy word people throw around when referencing the future. It's real, it's now. If you can come up with a way to kill an industry that is apparently $900 million strong after about 4 years of existence... well... GL m8)

It's not about capitalism.  It's about regulating industry.  Let business do whatever it wants, and eventually it will take over government. 

The way to 'kill' RMT (in its current form) is for companies to bite the bullet and start offering RMT themselves.  If I can push a button and do the work of a million man-hours from a sweatshop labor, I should.  If I have a product that morons are willing to pay money for that I can generate for free, I would be a fool not to generate those products myself.

You know what's really fucking ironic?  Even when that happens, RMT _still_ won't go away.  Because when that happens, you won't be paying for a powerleveler: you'll be paying for 'escorts' and 'mercenaries'.  I find it a lot more socially acceptable (and a lot more interesting) to hire a pair of chinese mercs to help me through an instance then to pay them to run the instance for me. 

[hal]

They don't run instances. They know thats a suckers path (its fun thus not approbate) They grind mobs.