Need help with a homosexuality in Star Wars argument

[Riggswolfe]

This might belong in politics but I'm not certain. I post over at theforce.net on their Star Wars forums sometimes. (I'm a nerd, I understand that.)

Basically someone posted and asked why there are no homosexuals in Star Wars besides Juhani in KOTOR.

This other guy then goes on a rant about how evil homosexuality is. Some of his key quotes:

Furthermore, "protection" isn't going to completely prevent the spread of infection; according to the gynecologist who practices at the hospital in my town, condom breakage during anal penetration is an estimated 36%, with another 21% slipping during the act, as oppposed to approximately 6% and 5% for heterosexual couples, and the use of a condom does nothing to alleviate the fact that, unlike the vagina, the anus is designed only for expulsive movements of faeces. Penetration with foreign objects, specifically during homosexual activities, incurs massive trauma, to the point that 30% of recipients become temporarily incontinent after their first experience of this, with prolonged penetration eventually leading to the complete collapse of the anal sphincter.

Another quote:

I certainly can imagine it. Of course, from both your point of view and mine, nature vs nurture, feeling sexually attracted to members of one's own sex isn't the result of a conscious choice, but rather the result of genes (your view) or the fact that you were never able to properly identify with your own sex through abuse, emotionally distant parents, lack of proper role models of the same sex or a combination of those things (my view), but merely experiencing same-sex attraction is quite a different thing from "being" homosexual, pursuing the "Gay" lifestyle, etc, being as that is the result of a choice to pursue an impulse, rather than a choice to seek treatment for it.

The weirdest quote:

To begin with, I'd expect that given that the state of medical technology and knowledge appears to be rather more advanced than what we possess here on Earth, homosexuality would be considered as a problematic psychological condition and treated as such at the earliest opportunity, though this, of course, is entirely dependant on whether you regard homosexuality as a disorder (and even from my point of view it would not entirely prevent homosexuality all together), so I'll move on to other arguments.

Someone asked him point blank about this and here was his response:

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Out of curiosity, and despite the fact that I don't want this to stray too far off the subject and out of Lit; do you personally consider homosexuality to be a mental, physical, or genetic disorder? I'm going to assume by your statement that you honestly consider it to be a disorder in the literal sense of the word, correct?
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Correct. To clarify, what research I've done would seem to support the conclusion that homosexuality is a psychological disorder (with, as I've noted, myriad unpleasant consequences) arising during the formative years of the individual when the sense of identity is still incomplete, and abuse or neglect by, or absence of positive role models of the same sex typically leads to the individual "seeking their father's/mother's love" (as many ex-homosexuals have described it) through sexual acts with other members of the same sex.

So, do any of you know of any good arguments, with facts backing them up that would be at all useful in this debate? I already told him that quoting the gynecologist in his town without saying what sources the gynecologist used is appealing to authority. He also says peer reviewed magazines shouldn't be used as sources because:

In these sorts of debates, it's quite common for the pro-homosexuality side of the argument to automatically throw out studies or statistical data supporting the other side on the basis of it not having undergone the process of peer-review, presumably by those medical or psychiatric bodies which continue to support the pro-homosexuality view (doctors and psychiatrists with qualms about the inherent healthiness of homosexuality don't count as peers, apparently).

[Signe]

Kick their asses... Uwe Boll style.

(I'm probably not helping.  Sorry.)

[stray]

Lol....

You're not serious, right?

First off --- There are intelligent opinions on each side of the subject. Looking for definitive answers though, at this point in time, is futile. Lets all just promote tolerance, claim complete ignorance, and just ignore the subject.

Secondly -- Star Wars.

[Nebu]

My argument would be this: Star Wars is a product.  Sci-Fi + homosexuality doesn't sell well with the target demographic.  Since it's ultimately about $$$, there's no reason to add in an element that might decrease cashflow. 

[Riggswolfe]

My argument would be this: Star Wars is a product.  Sci-Fi + homosexuality doesn't sell well with the target demographic.  Since it's ultimately about $$$, there's no reason to add in an element that might decrease cashflow. 

That is actually the coherent response of most posters, me included. It's not there because it wouldn't sell basically.  However, this dude goes off on how evil homosexuality is. Hell, he has a post where he says if you have homosexuals in Star Wars you need to have an Aids-analog to make it realistic. And that having homosexuality in Star Wars is destroying the fairy-tale innocence of it.

[Triforcer]

Lol....

You're not serious, right?

First off --- There are intelligent opinions on each side of the subject. Looking for definitive answers though, at this point in time, is futile. Lets all just promote tolerance, claim complete ignorance, and just ignore the subject.

  Arguing that Star Wars writers think homosexuality is wrong is ludicrous given the political nature of Hollywood.  These scripts and books aren't being written by people in Kansas.

[stray]

The whole idea of this thread you're talking about repulses me on a fundamental level. I want to slap the shit out of everyone in it (even you Riggs).

And it's not so much because it's a debate about homosexuality so much as it is a debate about homosexuality and fucking STAR WARS. You silly motherfuckers need an intervention. All of you. The good along with the bad.

And I can't believe you actually brought it up here

 

[HaemishM]

George Lucas did more to destroy the childlike innocence of the story than having homosexuals ever could.

Frankly, this sounds like an agrument that isn't worth arguing about. Ignore the twat. He's arguing on the Interweb about how evil homosexuals have destroyed Star Wars. Short of wearing a vole costume while fucking a ferret (or being SirBruce), there's not much lower on the scale of social deviant you can get.

[Riggswolfe]

The whole idea of this thread you're talking about repulses me on a fundamental level. I want to slap the shit out of everyone in it (even you Riggs).

And it's not so much because it's a debate about homosexuality so much as it is a debate about homosexuality and fucking STAR WARS. You silly motherfuckers need an intervention. All of you. The good along with the bad.

And I can't believe you actually brought it up here

 

Lol. Well, i figured it was no worse than some of our other silly discussions we have on here, and some of you are awesome at formulating arguments. Since I posted it a mod stepped in and closed the thread. Heh. And actually, in the end it turned into purely a debate about homosexuality. And my presence I think led to it being closed because I wasn't being all nice and sugarcoating my responses to the guy. I called him a bigot and worse several times.

[Scadente]

It always cracks me up when you start the homosexual debate with nerds. Most of these guys haven't even experienced sex and they go on and on and on about how evil homosexuality is. Not trying to generalize, but some people really need a reality check. If you spend most of your time on the internet, you should be reading alot; which in turn makes you more knowledgable. One would assume that you'd become more liberal, but it often seems to have the opposite effect.

A well, I remember oldskool "debates" with jock-types about homosexuality. Good times :) Often ending in physical threat, but that is to be expected from that demogrpahic.

[Numtini]

So, do any of you know of any good arguments, with facts backing them up that would be at all useful in this debate?

No, nothing that would be useful in the debate because your opponent has no interest in facts.

Most of his arguments come straight from the fundie laden reparative therapy contingent. They're completely discredited, but I'm not spending an hour on psych-abstracts just to come up with evidence that any competent therapist knows anyway and will be ignored by the poster. But there's just no evidence for any of the stuff about gender role models or any of that stuff. It's all just nonsense.

There are no gay characters in Star Wars because they don't appeal to the 16-30 male demographic and Lucas' films are some of the purest appeals to commercialism one could imagine.

[Riggswolfe]

It always cracks me up when you start the homosexual debate with nerds. Most of these guys haven't even experienced sex and they go on and on and on about how evil homosexuality is. Not trying to generalize, but some people really need a reality check. If you spend most of your time on the internet, you should be reading alot; which in turn makes you more knowledgable. One would assume that you'd become more liberal, but it often seems to have the opposite effect.

A well, I remember oldskool "debates" with jock-types about homosexuality. Good times :) Often ending in physical threat, but that is to be expected from that demogrpahic.

This guy hasn't had sex because he doesn't believe in premarital sex. In fact, one of the few times he got sidetracked it was to toss out statistics about how people who have premarital sex never have happy marriages and such...

[stray]

The whole idea of this thread you're talking about repulses me on a fundamental level. I want to slap the shit out of everyone in it (even you Riggs).

And it's not so much because it's a debate about homosexuality so much as it is a debate about homosexuality and fucking STAR WARS. You silly motherfuckers need an intervention. All of you. The good along with the bad.

And I can't believe you actually brought it up here

 

Lol. Well, i figured it was no worse than some of our other silly discussions we have on here, and some of you are awesome at formulating arguments. Since I posted it a mod stepped in and closed the thread. Heh. And actually, in the end it turned into purely a debate about homosexuality. And my presence I think led to it being closed because I wasn't being all nice and sugarcoating my responses to the guy. I called him a bigot and worse several times.

I'm really sorry for exploding there.  :-D

I just had a cig. I feel better now.

It's just.....There's too many Star Wars threads as it is. I can't stand it anymore. And just thinking of what other sites talking about makes me flip out even more (I'm sure the Star Wars talk at F13 is moderate in comparison).

[HaemishM]

Most of his arguments come straight from the fundie laden reparative therapy contingent. They're completely discredited, but I'm not spending an hour on psych-abstracts just to come up with evidence that any competent therapist knows anyway and will be ignored by the poster. But there's just no evidence for any of the stuff about gender role models or any of that stuff. It's all just nonsense.

It doesn't help that he mentions that studies which actually disprove what he says and are reviewed according to the established standards of data get completely tossed out as credible because of the pro-homosexual agenda of the study's creators. That's some good old-fashioned myopia there.

[Scadente]

This guy hasn't had sex because he doesn't believe in premarital sex. In fact, one of the few times he got sidetracked it was to toss out statistics about how people who have premarital sex never have happy marriages and such...

Someone is needing some 

I'm not a fan of how sex is portrayed in pop-culture; as a commodity. And how popculture emphazises that; No sexlife? You fail at life! But denying yourself one of mother natures most beutiful things strikes me as very odd. But then again, I'm european, liberal and all that shit :-D

(sorry, cheap stab)

[Miasma]

What do these Star Wars message boards talk about all day, do they just rehash the old movies ad nauseum?  I don't know how people could still come up with new topics to discuss.

As to the gay thing there is very little sex in Star Wars so most of the characters' orientations aren't actually known.  The only reason sex even gets mentioned in Star Wars is to explain where plot-advancing children come from which necessitates heterosexuality.  Unless they are clones!

[Riggswolfe]

What do these Star Wars message boards talk about all day, do they just rehash the old movies ad nauseum?  I don't know how people could still come up with new topics to discuss.

They debate points of the movies, talk about the books, the rpgs, the toys, fan events, fan fiction, etc. I mostly go to the book threads because I'm curious what other people think about character X's future based on his actions in book Y, that kind of thing.

[Numtini]

On Star Wars sex in general, there was a funny article I remember that pop-psychoanalyzed Lucas' immature understanding of sexuality through Attack of the Clones. It was highly amusing.

I'm not sure where it was, I think Salon but their search engine is horrid.

[Morfiend]

Just link him to here and be done with it.

http://www.venganza.org/

[Roac]

What a gay thread.

Oh well.  Some thoughts anyway, because sci-fi is a fun cover to discuss what the future might be.  I would expect homosexuality, if it existed during the Empire, to have been banned for no other reason than being different/unusual.  Note that the Empire showed extreme racial discrimination (against other literal races) and a mindset that was geared toward militarized and industrialized perfection, personified in Vader.  Art was not a priority.  Culture was not a priority.  I wouldn't expect luxury sex of any sort to be, either and that sort of government is one that thrives on finding people to victimize.

The other issue is what changes such a radical racial (literal) mixing would have.  How could you normalize sexual morals in a universe with thousands of species, each with their own view of it and all living in one country (the Republic, not the Empire)?  Since it seems most planets maintain distinct culture at least to some degree, then it would suggest there is tolerance if not acceptance of other groups.  Most standards of morality would be somewhat up for grabs, depending on where you were although the most basic rights would be supported to maintain a functional government (free speach of some sort, right to life, self determination, etc).

The last issue would be whether it would exist at all.  There is a cause (or several) for homosexuality; genes, gestation, the womb, environment, etc.  The technology is supremely advanced, to the point that it can be assumed that any parent who wanted to prevent homosexuality in their children could do so.  Some drug, laser wand, or whatever would fix it.  Technical medical issues like this could be waved off, because they usually are.  The main thrust of sci-fi isn't to debate whether we CAN do something, but whether we SHOULD.  The ficticious science assumes technical limitations are resolved.  Of more doubt is whether anyone at this point would care enough to want to do that, or whether they might even feel that such meddling was itself immoral. 

As to whether homosexuality is evil or not, that has nothing to do with Star Wars.  Sci-fi is fun in that it lets you rephrse issues with a more neutral context, or different context.  Like, how could you reconcile a prohibition against murder if you met a race who cannibalized their mate, Black Widow style?  What about issues of sexual discrimination with a race that has one sex inarguably superior to the other (as in, 40+ IQ points on average)? 

Of course, the real reason there are no homosexuals in SW is because Lucas didn't write them in.  Same reason there are no Arab looking people, or blacks (except the token black sidekick), or asians, etc.  But that makes for a much shorter discussion. 

[Yegolev]

Having Phantom Menace invade my rectum certainly caused me temporary incontinence, and I believe that second movie caused my sphincter to collapse.

The people in the adult industry refer to this as "slippage".

[Lantyssa]

I have no comments on Star Wars that hasn't already been said.  On the other half:

Under the DSM-IV, homosexuality is not considered a disorder.  The US military recently got in a lot of trouble for classifying it as one (the document was written long ago and never updated) and they very quickly rewrote that section.

The American Psychiatric Association completely discredited conversion therapy (part of what Numtini briefly touched on) at their annual meeting in August.  (One article here.)  No credible psychologist would back this poster's stance.

On a personal level, this is the type of ignorance and bigotry I try to fight against every day.  People like this only make me work harder.  Thanks for the motivation!

[Riggswolfe]

On a personal level, this is the type of ignorance and bigotry I try to fight against every day.  People like this only make me work harder.  Thanks for the motivation!

One thing that drove me crazy, was when I called him a bigot, he came back that I was the bigotted one because I refused to accept his disagreements with homosexuality.

[murdoc]

Just derail the thread by asking about his thoughts on Luke and Leia's incestual relationship.

[Oban]

I will never look at the phrase "NGE" the same way again.

[Margalis]

Male homosexuality *is* a great way to spread STDs. AIDs effects primarily needle sharers and gay men. While this isn't quite as true as it was in the 80s to early 90s it is still true. (At least in this country. In Africa it is totally different)

On the other hand female homosexuality is a great way *not* to spread STDs.

Of course the only way to get AIDs from a gay man is if you share a needle with him or fuck him..

[stray]

Jedi's are celibate. And Darth Vader brought the galaxy to it's knees simply because he wanted to get his rocks off.

That's all I know.

[Righ]

Male homosexuality *is* a great way to spread STDs.

Having sex with multiple partners is a great way to spread STDs. Sexuality is more than sex. This should have been taught in school, not an Internet forum.

[Abagadro]

AIDs effects primarily needle sharers and gay men.

Uh, Africa and Southeast Asia called. They want a word with you.

[Ironwood]

Wookies Live On Endor.

[Tebonas]

Maybe you can help me with something Margalis. I'm bad at mathematics.

From the global AIDS statistics 2005:

Adults living with AIDS: 36.3 Mio
Women living with AIDS: 17.3 Mio

Since 17,3 Mio people are roughly half of 36.3 Mio, are these women gay men or part of a large worldwide needle sharing ring?

[Ironwood]

It's an interesting question, so I asked Frank Miller :

"They're all whores."

Thanks, Frank.

[Morat20]

I saw the title and thought you were asking for an intervention. I figured we could all get together and try to convince you that arguing about homosexuality in the Star Wars context was a "Bad choice" and that you needed to make better choices before you ruined your life.

Look, the dude's obsessed with sex. To avoid thinking about all the sex he's not getting, he spends all his time thinking about the sex other people are having and getting mad about it. It's classic projection. The only reason he's fixated on gays and no simply pre-marital sex is that gay sex can never be "okay" -- it's doubly bad. It's pre-marital sex that can never, ever, ever be made right through marriage.

Just ignore it. Normally I'm all in favor of arguing for the benefit of the peanut gallery, if not for this guy -- but it's not worth it.

[HaemishM]

Sounds like someone needs to rub one out.

To wookies.

[Strazos]

Stupid. Fucking. Thread.

Homos in Star Wars? lolz

Seriously, why should anyone give a shit.