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Author Topic: GalCiv II: Dark Avatar delayed  (Read 10578 times)
Strazos
Greetings from the Slave Coast
Posts: 15542

The World's Worst Game: Curry or Covid


Reply #35 on: October 23, 2006, 09:27:26 PM

Still not getting you. I just pointed out the option where you could make the combat actually pause on all of your turns. You're not explaining your points very well; you're just frothing at the mouth about how the game is not turn based...even though it is, with the option to actually stop at each and every turn you get. As you can see, I don't play this particular game in that fashion. I simply let the combat play out until one of my conditions are met, or I choose to pause it myself.

And what are you complaining about micromanagement for? Locked-in-stone Turn-based combat is all entirely micromanagement: you have to manually assign actions each and every round. Don't want that magic user to do anything? Oh, you have to select that, every round. Want to attack that target until it dies? You have to select that, every round. Want to move to some point on the map while in combat? Well, if you can't do it in a single turn, you have to keep assigning the order, every round, until you get there.

Now, I am not against turn-based combat. Some of my favorite games ever, such as Final Fantasy Tactics and Fallout, are turn-based. But I certainly do not think either system is "better" than the other.

Fear the Backstab!
"Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion
"Hell is other people." -Sartre
Sky
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Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #36 on: October 24, 2006, 07:49:54 AM

If you say it is, you need to count Dead or Alive and Tekken as turn-based since you can pause that shit and walk off.
There's my subtle distinction. You can't pause and give orders in Tekken or DOA. Thus, they are realtime.
Quote
BG combat was a slow tedious constantly interrupted micromanagement mess.
That's what I liked about it. Go play Diabo :P I liked the constant die - reload - try again thing, because the game was a fun tactical game. You could try different strategies each time, sometimes I'd reload a particularly cool battle even after I'd passed it just to try it with some different strategies (web->stinking cloud->slam the door shut and chuckle! Take that, Umber Hulks!).

I also set up my pauses as Straz suggests. I'd also suggest 'enemy sighted'.
Yegolev
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Reply #37 on: October 24, 2006, 08:30:15 AM

Still not getting you. I just pointed out the option where you could make the combat actually pause on all of your turns. You're not explaining your points very well; you're just frothing at the mouth about how the game is not turn based...even though it is, with the option to actually stop at each and every turn you get. As you can see, I don't play this particular game in that fashion. I simply let the combat play out until one of my conditions are met, or I choose to pause it myself.

And what are you complaining about micromanagement for? Locked-in-stone Turn-based combat is all entirely micromanagement: you have to manually assign actions each and every round. Don't want that magic user to do anything? Oh, you have to select that, every round. Want to attack that target until it dies? You have to select that, every round. Want to move to some point on the map while in combat? Well, if you can't do it in a single turn, you have to keep assigning the order, every round, until you get there.

Now, I am not against turn-based combat. Some of my favorite games ever, such as Final Fantasy Tactics and Fallout, are turn-based. But I certainly do not think either system is "better" than the other.

Please stop frothing, I think you are confusing my posts with someone else's.  Unless you are frothing because I am feverently arguing a dumb point, in which case please carry on.  I will try to explain what I am talking about, although it is obvious at this point that you have never played a turn-based game.

The turns you are describing are actually D&D combat rounds (maybe a coincidence, but I think BG was inspired by something else; probably the same one that they used to make KotOR).  Each round, everyone gets to do something.  Sometimes they just get to wait, since some characters are slow, but the "clock" ticks for everyone at the same time; it's more like, say, a ten-second period passing.  That is why it is called a round rather than a turn, and why you drew a big red circle around a END OF ROUND button (that just pauses the game for you) instead of a END TURN button (which would end your turn and let the other guy go).  It is possibly a subtle distinction in game mechanics, but it seems like a big one to me.  Sky is able to understand my poorly-worded posts, so he has an advantage in this discussion.  He is also right about my DoA comparison, in that you cannot give orders while that game is paused.  If you rename "frames" to "rounds", however...!

Before we get too much farther in splitting hairs, I think we need to enumerate all known hair fractions.  So, what do we have on our list?
  • Everyone moves at once each round, no orders given during pause (fighting games like DoA do this)
  • Everyone moves at once each round, orders can be given during pause (lots of games fit here, like FFVII and NetHack)
  • Differing sides take turns receiving and executing orders (this is GalCiv II)
  • Differing sides take turns receiving and executing orders, inactive side is allowed out-of-turn opportunities (X-COM and Rebelstar come to mind)

Did I miss any?

Also, I don't hate pausable real-time games, they just annoy me sometimes.  I love D2LOD, for example.  Also StarCraft, although I am rather tired of RTS these days.  I also don't hate complexity; in fact, complexity gives me an enormous wood.  I love games like EVE, La Pucelle, Disgaea, some of the crazier Final Fantasy combat/advancement systems, SMT: Digital Devil combat (that one is surprisingly deep when you get into the details), M:TG, etc.

See?  It's like arguing religion.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Daeven
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Reply #38 on: October 24, 2006, 09:12:07 AM

I'd just like to point out that SE 5 has a big END TURN button on the strategic map, and the 'EVIL REAL TIME TACTICAL COMBAT' has an option to 'pause' at the end of every 'turn', just like SE 4 did by default.

*shrug*

Carry on.

All I know is I really like the fact that the Tech tree is so huge and diverse (unlike Gal Civ 2: Uber Energy Wapon +2 even smaller!) that you *can't* research everything. Unless you like getting squished by the more specialized races. (Stellar Manipulation for the Win!)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2006, 09:15:49 AM by Daeven »

"There is a technical term for someone who confuses the opinions of a character in a book with those of the author. That term is idiot." -SMStirling

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion
Strazos
Greetings from the Slave Coast
Posts: 15542

The World's Worst Game: Curry or Covid


Reply #39 on: October 24, 2006, 09:51:50 AM

My posts were really directed at Jain Za, not you Yegolev. (Also, of course I have played turn based games, unless FFT and Fallout [among others] are not actually turn based)

Also, did you just compare D2 to the IE?

Fear the Backstab!
"Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion
"Hell is other people." -Sartre
Yegolev
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Reply #40 on: October 24, 2006, 01:43:22 PM

My posts were really directed at Jain Za, not you Yegolev.

Whoops!  FFT is turn-based by my reckoning.

Also, did you just compare D2 to the IE?

I think IE is the Baldur's Gate engine?  Yes, I did.  You just can't give orders while D2 is paused, and D2 is about ten thousand times more fun.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Strazos
Greetings from the Slave Coast
Posts: 15542

The World's Worst Game: Curry or Covid


Reply #41 on: October 24, 2006, 06:07:55 PM

Pausing is D2 is a convienence. Pausing in IE combat is an integral part of the system.

Fear the Backstab!
"Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion
"Hell is other people." -Sartre
Tebonas
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Posts: 6365


Reply #42 on: October 24, 2006, 11:18:14 PM

Quote
All I know is I really like the fact that the Tech tree is so huge and diverse (unlike Gal Civ 2: Uber Energy Wapon +2 even smaller!) that you *can't* research everything. Unless you like getting squished by the more specialized races. (Stellar Manipulation for the Win!)


On the other hand its hard to go for a tech victory if you can't research everything. It might be a game design you do not like, but its a deliberate choice rather than an oversight. That being said, some of the descriptions could be less boring and the names more imaginative.
Yegolev
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Posts: 24440

2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST


WWW
Reply #43 on: October 25, 2006, 08:50:58 AM

Pausing is D2 is a convienence. Pausing in IE combat is an integral part of the system.

I am not sure what you are arguing here.  Me might even be agreeing.  Neither one of those systems is turn-based.

Taking turns is an integral part of the system of X-COM combat.  And GalCiv II.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Strazos
Greetings from the Slave Coast
Posts: 15542

The World's Worst Game: Curry or Covid


Reply #44 on: October 25, 2006, 09:22:01 AM

Well, ok then....I see the IE as being "turn-based enough" for me.

Fear the Backstab!
"Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion
"Hell is other people." -Sartre
Daeven
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1210


Reply #45 on: October 25, 2006, 09:22:55 AM

On the other hand its hard to go for a tech victory if you can't research everything. It might be a game design you do not like, but its a deliberate choice rather than an oversight. That being said, some of the descriptions could be less boring and the names more imaginative.

You are correct there is no direct 'tech victory' (as in, I researched everything first so I win). There is the 'my tech is so advanced I brush aside all opposition like gnats' victory though. so. There you are.

And Yes, I know it was a deliberate choice with GalCiv2. Don't get me wrong, I love GalCiv, and have played the hell out of it. IMO the SE series is just as good, for completely different reasons.

"There is a technical term for someone who confuses the opinions of a character in a book with those of the author. That term is idiot." -SMStirling

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion
Morat20
Terracotta Army
Posts: 18529


Reply #46 on: October 25, 2006, 01:20:32 PM

On the other hand its hard to go for a tech victory if you can't research everything. It might be a game design you do not like, but its a deliberate choice rather than an oversight. That being said, some of the descriptions could be less boring and the names more imaginative.

You are correct there is no direct 'tech victory' (as in, I researched everything first so I win). There is the 'my tech is so advanced I brush aside all opposition like gnats' victory though. so. There you are.
My personal favorite. Back in the old Alpha Centauri days I'ld put off researching transcendence so I could enjoy my massive tech advantage to it's fullest. Space Elevator + Drop Pods = fun.

Colonize every tiny island or bit of land I hadn't bothered with before, and land entire armies all over the map and crush a few foes before I won.

I tend to be fond of the Big Uber Vessel in GC2 as well. Not that I can't do swarms -- and have -- but I seem to prefer to win through superior tech, not superior numbers.
Tebonas
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Posts: 6365


Reply #47 on: October 25, 2006, 01:32:21 PM

I'm a sucker for playing weapons dealer for everybody else and keep them fighting each other. The best wins are those why I don't have to fight a single shot myself.
Sky
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Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #48 on: October 26, 2006, 07:58:24 AM

I liked playing Gaian on SMAC and getting the ability to capture swarms. Just keep moving them around deep fungal areas and fighting (or recruiting) random encounters until they're massive boils and then send them against my enemies when I have a couple dozen. I've got to load that game up again, it's one of my favorites.
Morat20
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Posts: 18529


Reply #49 on: October 26, 2006, 12:03:51 PM

I liked playing Gaian on SMAC and getting the ability to capture swarms. Just keep moving them around deep fungal areas and fighting (or recruiting) random encounters until they're massive boils and then send them against my enemies when I have a couple dozen. I've got to load that game up again, it's one of my favorites.
Too bad SMAC doesn't play well with NAT. A friend and I tried to load up some games to play, and found that it was a chore to attempt to even play head-to-head through routers. I could have packed up my machine, driven to his place, and hooked into his network and played fine. Or we could have set our DMZ's to our own machines (and thus hosed our respective spouses ability to use the net) -- or we could spend a few hours toying with port settings and the like trying to get the damn thing to work.

Alpha Centauri is bad about it. I'm still fighting with Age of Empires and Age of Mythology over it. Directplay fucking sucks.
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