What a MMO can do to some people

[Raging Turtle]

Interesting thread. 

My take:  Nobody ever, EVER, looks back at their life and says, 'I wish I had spent more time playing MMO's.'

[Xanthippe]

I'm wondering, for those in guilds with raiding requirements - if you have a guild member who is a crafter but has a week or month where they can't raid - or just don't want to raid - you kick them out?  Or what?

[Jayce]

Interesting thread. 

My take:  Nobody ever, EVER, looks back at their life and says, 'I wish I had spent more time playing MMO's.'

I'd say more people would do this than those who would say "I wish I had spent more time at the office".

Keep in mind this is the primary social outlet for some people.  What I've read indicates that online socialization is not a oranges-to-oranges replacement for real life, but there are those who wouldn't get ANY if it weren't for MMOGs (severely disabled, physically or socially).

[C99]

I got sucked into MMO's (UO 8 years ago) because I had no social life anyways.  I was living in a strange new city after college and I had a shitty job at the time, so I had no money to do anything and $10/month for UO was cheap.  I stopped playing for a few years in an attempt to build a better real life, but having failed at that, I started playing a new MMO called DAOC.  Fast forward to WOW...which I quit a year ago.  In the past year of my reintroduction to real life, I got my fat butt into lean, muscular shape, started dressing better, going out more, and made some actual real-life friends.  I have a decent fulltime job and a nice place and area where I live.  Well, my life still sucks and I can't ever seem to get laid no matter what.  So I'm contemplating starting up WOW again when TBC comes out.  Face it(and you know who you are), some of our realities were destined to suck and MMO's are not a bad way out of it. 

Really, when I think of what I would do if I didn't have to work for a living or had millions of dollars...I would probably get a nice pad in Manhattan or somewhere cool like that and play an MMO all day and night.  (In NYC, delivery services for everything ^^)  Oh yeah, my mother would live with me.

[Merusk]

Just wondering...

How long has your guild been running? You're on Alleria, right (a launch server, if I recall)? How long did it take to move beyond Molten Core? How far geared are most of your members in BWL gear?

I flopped guilds a lot until I found one I liked. - Part of that work to build a social network thing.  I joined the initial guild last September, and we started raiding MC as part of a two-guild alliance back in late March.  We merged with our alliance guild in July and started BWL in early September of this year.   We're regularly DEing loot in MC now, and the biggest problem is getting the rare-for-us stuff to drop so we can complete some folks sets and pickup more T2 legs.

In the once-a-week runs we're already downing Razor regularly, took two weeks to learn Vael and would have downed Broodlord on Friday but ran out of time after finally getting the supression room timing down. (Got him to 24%, wiped and it was 11:30 so we called it.)   As for how geared-out we are, the DKP site says we've only gotten 19 bits of loot and 4 nexus crystals so far.   But given we're still working on the 3rd boss, that's not too terrible.

I'm wondering, for those in guilds with raiding requirements - if you have a guild member who is a crafter but has a week or month where they can't raid - or just don't want to raid - you kick them out?  Or what?

While we've got the requirement, we won't kick anyone who's active in the guild.  Several folks you wouldn't recognize as being members if you didn't see their names in the DKP site because they play alts when we're not raiding.  Several we won't kick because they're on a lot, and help run coffer runs, or the odd UBRS/ Strath/ Scholo run, etc even tho the way their jobs work out they can't raid with us.   The rule's there just so we can take care of the leeches and avoid their rules-lawyering friends.

Interesting thread. 
My take:  Nobody ever, EVER, looks back at their life and says, 'I wish I had spent more time playing MMO's.'

I'd say more people would do this than those who would say "I wish I had spent more time at the office".

Everyone, EVERYONE here throws away time. You're doing it just reading this post. The "nobody ever looks back.." argument is bullshit, based just on that fact alone. 

It also makes the assumption that if you weren't playing an MMO you'd be doing something more productive with your time.  For the vast majority that's just not the case.  People need downtime and decompression, for MMO players that comes from playing MMOs.

Keep in mind this is the primary social outlet for some people.  What I've read indicates that online socialization is not a oranges-to-oranges replacement for real life, but there are those who wouldn't get ANY if it weren't for MMOGs (severely disabled, physically or socially).

Yep, MMOs are my social outlet. Staying at home w/ the kids during the week while the wife goes to work means it's games or TV after their bedtime.  I'd rather do something more with folks I can shoot the shit with around a common interest and have some kind of network of people outside my job.

[Engels]

Well, my life still sucks and I can't ever seem to get laid no matter what....



Oh yeah, my mother would live with me.

Yes folks, we have a winner!

[stray]

Everyone, EVERYONE here throws away time. You're doing it just reading this post. The "nobody ever looks back.." argument is bullshit, based just on that fact alone. 

It also makes the assumption that if you weren't playing an MMO you'd be doing something more productive with your time.  For the vast majority that's just not the case.  People need downtime and decompression, for MMO players that comes from playing MMOs.

I think you made some good points about raids not equaling catassing (though they still require a great deal of time investment anyhow...just more spread out), but you can't be serious here. You speak as if we were all serfs. That real life is generally unproductive anyhow.

Hell, even if we were serfs, I'd still make the argument that downtime in a serf's life is more productive than downtime in a mmo enthusiast's life. As shallow as some things in the real world might be, they're still more productive simply by virtue of being real.

[lamaros]

Everyone, EVERYONE here throws away time. You're doing it just reading this post. The "nobody ever looks back.." argument is bullshit, based just on that fact alone. 

It also makes the assumption that if you weren't playing an MMO you'd be doing something more productive with your time.  For the vast majority that's just not the case.  People need downtime and decompression, for MMO players that comes from playing MMOs.

I think you made some good points about raids not equaling catassing (though they still require a great deal of time investment anyhow...just more spread out), but you can't be serious here. You speak as if we were all serfs. That real life is generally unproductive anyhow.

Hell, even if we were serfs, I'd still make the argument that downtime in a serf's life is more productive than downtime in a mmo enthusiast's life. As shallow as some things in the real world might be, they're still more productive simply by virtue of being real.

I would think someones idea of what they have enjoyed in their life, and how it meets their goals and expectations and contributes to their level of happiness, would be up to that person to decide.

I've had things that I look back on my life that have been very productive eye opening experiences that have broadened my world. But I do not, and I doubt I will ever, rate them 'above' my time relaxing with a book or playing a game. Whenever I get to that point I stop playing those games or stop reading so much and go do other things.

I quit WoW in Feb 2005 and didn't play again untill Auguest this year. I played it quite a lot before I quit then (about 20 days /played) and I still remember enjoying it. I spent the first 6 months of this year traveling around the world and found it to be very rewarding too. But I got sick of it also and came home.

Please stop trying to make up rules for life, especailly other people's lives. If YOU are unhappy with the way you are leading your own life then do something about it, don't take it out on others and imply they are in the same situation; One person's "productive" is another persons waste of time.

[stray]

Heh. Again with the "rules".

It has nothing to do with rules. Stop projecting that stupid bullshit on to me. It has nothing to do with telling you what to do or enjoy. If you think that, then that's your own guilt on your head. I don't give a fuck about you enough to make rules for you. I don't even give a fuck about you to make small suggestions.

I'm merely stating that real world recreation, productivity, and cause and effect > just about anything you'll do in a virtual space. It's not a value judgement (unless you think tangibility is a value.....).

[lamaros]

I'm merely stating that real world recreation, productivity, and cause and effect > just about anything you'll do in a virtual space. It's not a value judgement (unless you think tangibility is a value.....).

How is making objective statments about the 'real' world verus the 'virtual' one not equavialient to defining rules?

Are you daft?

This virtual discussion is obviously stopping you from demonstrating ignorance and stupidity to someone else - Face to FACE! - so I won't keep you any longer.

[stray]

so I won't keep you any longer.

Thanks.

[Endie]

I'm merely stating that real world recreation, productivity, and cause and effect > just about anything you'll do in a virtual space. It's not a value judgement (unless you think tangibility is a value.....).

How is making objective statments about the 'real' world verus the 'virtual' one not equavialient to defining rules?

Are you daft?

This virtual discussion is obviously stopping you from demonstrating ignorance and stupidity to someone else - Face to FACE! - so I won't keep you any longer.

A more formalised approach to Stray's assertion is developed in Nozick's Experience Machine: he uses it to attack hedonism, but it is useful, if not perfectly mappable, onto the idea of the relative values of real or virtual activity.

At the same time, Lamaros has a point in that Stray is going Kant on his ass: introducing universalised maxims about "anything you'll do in a virtual space...".  It's just that Lamaros resorts to "no, you're a big poop" as a rejoinder...

[Merusk]

Everyone, EVERYONE here throws away time. You're doing it just reading this post. The "nobody ever looks back.." argument is bullshit, based just on that fact alone. 

It also makes the assumption that if you weren't playing an MMO you'd be doing something more productive with your time.  For the vast majority that's just not the case.  People need downtime and decompression, for MMO players that comes from playing MMOs.

I think you made some good points about raids not equaling catassing (though they still require a great deal of time investment anyhow...just more spread out), but you can't be serious here. You speak as if we were all serfs. That real life is generally unproductive anyhow.

Hell, even if we were serfs, I'd still make the argument that downtime in a serf's life is more productive than downtime in a mmo enthusiast's life. As shallow as some things in the real world might be, they're still more productive simply by virtue of being real.

No, I'm saying most Americans are fat and lazy.  Population stats tend to bear this out.

   If you want to argue that if MMOs dissapeared today everyone playing an MMO would be out there curing cancer, building for the homeless, and working out then I don't know what to tell you.  It would take a massive cultural shift for anything like that to happen.  Instead they'd simply find another, likely more passive, way of entertaining themselves.

Beyond that I'd argue that watching TV in reality is hardly more productive than playing a game in virtual reality.. which oddly enough you have to DO in reality.

[lamaros]

I'm merely stating that real world recreation, productivity, and cause and effect > just about anything you'll do in a virtual space. It's not a value judgement (unless you think tangibility is a value.....).

How is making objective statments about the 'real' world verus the 'virtual' one not equavialient to defining rules?

Are you daft?

This virtual discussion is obviously stopping you from demonstrating ignorance and stupidity to someone else - Face to FACE! - so I won't keep you any longer.

A more formalised approach to Stray's assertion is developed in Nozick's Experience Machine: he uses it to attack hedonism, but it is useful, if not perfectly mappable, onto the idea of the relative values of real or virtual activity.

At the same time, Lamaros has a point in that Stray is going Kant on his ass: introducing universalised maxims about "anything you'll do in a virtual space...".  It's just that Lamaros resorts to "no, you're a big poop" as a rejoinder...

I find it more productive (read: makes my life better/whatever) to resort to ad hominum when the discussion is becoming cyclical.

[jpark]

People can be obsessed with anything but MMORPGs encourage it.

The more time you spend the better you get. This is not true of nearly anything else in life, past a certain point. In sports you can overtrain and become injured. *Just* putting in time doesn't make you better at anything in life, but it does in MMORGs. Putting in time, thought, effort and energy - yes those are required to be good at anything. But to be good at WOW you don't need thought, effort or energy. You can't grind away in soccer to become better. No matter how much basketball I practice I'm not going to be as good as someone with real skills, and in addition there are greatly diminishing rewards on training. The same goes for mental excersizes- your brain can also suffer from overtraining. In a game like WOW you can't suffer from overtraining and time spent does not give diminishing rewards. (A little but not much) It is hard to find many activities where time spent correlates directly to overall ability.

That is really well put.

With my personality there is almost nothing I do in moderation - but mmorgps make things worse.  I am not as bad as most folks classified as addicts - but the effects are enough to impact other areas of my life.

To manage this - and in concert with the game - we are focusing more on doing 5 mans than raiding.  Ironically, at 60 on some servers it is just as hard to raid as it is to have a good 5 man group to get esoteric gear.  Thinking 5 mans with my mates may address this more.

Or it is time to return to pen and paper DnD - clearly harder to get into on just any night.

[shiznitz]

Interesting thread. 

My take:  Nobody ever, EVER, looks back at their life and says, 'I wish I had spent more time playing MMO's.'

Most MMOG players aren't 65+ and doing the life retrospective thing yet.

[Raging Turtle]

Interesting thread. 

My take:  Nobody ever, EVER, looks back at their life and says, 'I wish I had spent more time playing MMO's.'

Most MMOG players aren't 65+ and doing the life retrospective thing yet.

     True.  But even right now I can look back at college and high school (neither which was that long ago for me) and wish that I had gone out and socialized more often, instead of staying to play computer games, or watch tv, or reread a book for the fourth time, etc etc. 
     I like MMO's a lot.  Right now I'm still subscribed to EVE just so I can skill change even though I haven't actually PLAYED in two or three months.  But once I recognized what I was using all those things for - an escape from the real world, a way to stay inside my comfort zone instead of risking a little social awkwardness - it all felt like wasted time.  No, not everyone uses these games as an escape, but a lot do, and I don't feel that suggesting that people take the times to think about WHY they're playing these games, and if they wouldn't be happier or better off doing something else, is a bad thing. 

[Xanthippe]

     True.  But even right now I can look back at college and high school (neither which was that long ago for me) and wish that I had gone out and socialized more often, instead of staying to play computer games, or watch tv, or reread a book for the fourth time, etc etc. 

Yes, but then you could have picked up an SSD or inadvertently become a parent or been hit by a bus or ...

Looking back and saying "if only..." is of very limited use, considering that whatever option you could have taken would likely also have resulted in unexpected consequences.

[Jayce]

  No, not everyone uses these games as an escape, but a lot do, and I don't feel that suggesting that people take the times to think about WHY they're playing these games, and if they wouldn't be happier or better off doing something else, is a bad thing. 

I don't think anyone is saying that you should not even suggest that people think about why they play and whether it's too much.  IMO that is an extremely healthy weekly or even daily thing to do, and not just regarding online gaming. 

The thing I object to is those who, because they got addicted, suggest that everyone who ever sits down at to a MMOG session will become a hopeless addict.  I submit that the addicts are the minority.  It's just that they are more vocal, because no one trumpets "I"m not addicted!" from the rooftops (unless they are, ironically).

[Dren]

Interesting thread. 

My take:  Nobody ever, EVER, looks back at their life and says, 'I wish I had spent more time playing MMO's.'

Most MMOG players aren't 65+ and doing the life retrospective thing yet.

When I'm 65+ I'll either be playing golf or computer/console games.  Mostly that will be MMOG's.  Otherwise, I'll be travelling as much as my retirement will allow.

I know I'll wish I had allowed myself more time for recreation.  Some of that recreation time will be on gaming.  I'm a gamer.  That's what I do.

[shiznitz]

I am with you. Retirement seems like a good time to catass.

[Trouble]

I don't get this whole "virtual" has less value than "real" thing. First of all, I don't even know what's real anyway. It's all philosophy and BS, but at the end of the day you're still not left with any answers anyway. You're making an arbitrary judgement call. Based on your statement, someone with the job of web developer is wasting their time, except for the fact that they make a lot of money doing it. So the only value in a web developer's job is the money they get? Their job is to create "virtual" things, therefore it has no value. Same as us here on this website. This website is "virtual" therefore it has less value than say if we were all in a room together in real life just yelling at each other.

Your value judgements on real and virtual are off. You can't judge the value of something based on whether you do it in "real-life" or "virtually". You have to judge based on the merits of what actually goes on with it. As time goes on and our technology increases, the line between real and virtual is getting blurrier and blurrier. You're going to find yourself lost in 10 years when you're yelling at the guy jogging on virtual stairmaster in his virtual workout room that he should go get some excercise in the real world.

[Chenghiz]

Your value judgements on real and virtual are off. You can't judge the value of something based on whether you do it in "real-life" or "virtually". You have to judge based on the merits of what actually goes on with it. As time goes on and our technology increases, the line between real and virtual is getting blurrier and blurrier. You're going to find yourself lost in 10 years when you're yelling at the guy jogging on virtual stairmaster in his virtual workout room that he should go get some excercise in the real world.

Is he actually getting exercise? No amount of running around in Azeroth or on a virtual treadmill will make your heart or your body more efficient and lengthen your lifespan. No amount of raiding will get you the money to pay the rent or loan, buy your groceries, or give you the money to go out and enjoy yourself. No amount of cybersex will actually get you laid (last time I checked, anyway).

So I suppose if your objectives in life aren't living to a decent age and experiencing the good things in life, then yeah virtual things may have more value to you than real things. But to me, that's a pretty miserable existance.

[Valmorian]

So I suppose if your objectives in life aren't living to a decent age and experiencing the good things in life, then yeah virtual things may have more value to you than real things. But to me, that's a pretty miserable existance.

Psst.  "The good things in life" are different for each person. 

[Chenghiz]

I misworded that a bit. My point is that the things people value are different, and to me (and, I suspect, most people in this thread) virtual things are not the central focus in life.

[Trouble]

That's fine. I'm not saying you have to value things in WoW equally to real life. But I disagree with not valuing it for what it is. It's a hobby, an enjoyment, something to spend time on. It's not a realistic expectation that people should be "productive" with all their time, or even a majority of their time. It's even worse to say the time spent enjoying yourself in a MMO is worthless and a waste of life. The fact is that humans are better at wasting time than anything else and if you want to judge one specific thing more harshly than all the other BS that people waste time doing I think that's not fair. Whether in a virtual world or a real world, it's all "wasted" time, whatever that means.

[Merusk]

. No amount of cybersex will actually get you laid (last time I checked, anyway).

Worked for me a few times.  Of course, it has to be the intermediate step, and not the end result.

See, the thing you all are getting hooked on is using Virtual Life to replace real life.  Instead, there's a larger number using it to supplement and expand real life across what would otherwise be boundaries.

[stray]

I don't get this whole "virtual" has less value than "real" thing. First of all, I don't even know what's real anyway. It's all philosophy and BS, but at the end of the day you're still not left with any answers anyway.

If you're that strapped for answers, then all I can say is take comfort in the fact that you don't have to reinvent the wheel.

Based on your statement, someone with the job of web developer is wasting their time, except for the fact that they make a lot of money doing it. So the only value in a web developer's job is the money they get? Their job is to create "virtual" things, therefore it has no value.

Except I never said it didn't have value. I said the real world inherently carried more value (not that it hijacked all value) just by virtue of being tangible and real, as well as being the very thing that gives definition to virtuality.

Secondly, my original reply was to Merusk, and his statements alone. My only point was to defend the worth of real world activities and achievements against his statements (as I perceived them). It seemed as if he was writing much of it off. It had nothing to do with totally denigrating virtual activities or making "rules" for anyone.

Some of you have blown this way out of proportion. I'm not the post modern subjectivist some of you appear to be, but I never made this an either/or situation either. I'm opened minded enough to see that perhaps.....Perhaps "cybersex" or "virtual exercise", to take two extreme examples, might have value or some kind of amusing quality to them.....But I'm sure as hell not going to say they're equal to real sex and real exercise. I will call you a fatass who's needs to get laid if it gets to that point.

[WindupAtheist]

No one is ever going to look back and wish they had spent more time reading "Catass Everquests himself to death, are these games addictive?!" thread number 2,408,216.

[lamaros]

But posting in said thread. Ahh, what a life to lead.

Why does everyone around here seem to be so obsessed with getting 'laid'?

I would assume that cybersex and real sex are what we commonly call "different things" and thus while they share some common ground are not to be compared directly. Which seems to be what Stray said.. except then he said that real sex was better than cybersex...

But yeah. Exercise (including epic sex) > Running around the Barrens.

[stray]

Yes, they are "different". Lets just agree on that. ;)

[Endie]

Why does everyone around here seem to be so obsessed with getting 'laid'?

I would assume that cybersex and real sex are what we commonly call "different things" and thus while they share some common ground are not to be compared directly. Which seems to be what Stray said.. except then he said that real sex was better than cybersex...

Look, I don't want to go into details here, but I've managed to do some field research and, frankly, it is.  Way better.  Call me subjective, I know, but copping off with a night-elf in the Deeprun tram while a dwarf goes "Yar Yar Hump Hump" in the background just doesn't compare, even with the closest possible experience, which I admit would probably involve getting off with a girl with foot-long eyebrows in a metro tunnel while an alchoholic throws a torrent of abusive criticism from the platform.

[Oban]

In real life, STDs are BoP.

[Sky]

First of all, I don't even know what's real anyway.

[Strazos]

But posting in said thread. Ahh, what a life to lead.

Why does everyone around here seem to be so obsessed with getting 'laid'?

I would assume that cybersex and real sex are what we commonly call "different things" and thus while they share some common ground are not to be compared directly. Which seems to be what Stray said.. except then he said that real sex was better than cybersex...

You're joking...right?