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Author Topic: For your amusement: David Allen comments on WoW.  (Read 7479 times)
Signe
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on: July 21, 2004, 11:39:22 AM

This is what DA replied when a Pharoah forum punter asked if he'd write a review of WoW:


"Heh - well, I will say that it's the finest MMOG I've played. Granted more work needs to be done on it, Blizzard has basically perfected the level-based MMOG.

They've made is quest-based so that you're more interested in exploring and working together than power-leveling, etc.

I probably should write a detailed review of the game just for fun - I just need to get the time... So very little of it is left... "
_________________
David Allen
Pharaoh Productions, L.L.C.

Creators of DOMINION and UNIVERSE!


The last comment indicates that I should quickly add him to my 'dead' pool.  So far he's not commented on Horizons filing of Chapter 11.  I wonder if he held on to his stock....

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
El Gallo
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Reply #1 on: July 21, 2004, 11:49:38 AM

Man, I used to think that WoW was on a pretty solid foundation and had a decent shot at being a really well-done game.  I now find myself forced to reconsider those positions.

This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
HRose
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Reply #2 on: July 21, 2004, 03:26:17 PM

Wow, that was *deep*.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Riggswolfe
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Reply #3 on: July 21, 2004, 03:37:00 PM

This is proof that every once in awhile everyone can be right. He is right in this case. My many recent 5am nights on WoW tell me it's the most fun I've had in years in an MMOG

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
eldaec
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Reply #4 on: July 21, 2004, 05:31:06 PM

The quest based thing keeps coming up.

I'd intrigued to know what the difference is between WoW quest based wonderfulness, and DAoC ToA quest based suckage?

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ≠assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
HRose
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Reply #5 on: July 21, 2004, 05:32:50 PM

Quote from: eldaec
I'd intrigued to know what the difference is between WoW quest based wonderfulness, and DAoC ToA quest based suckage?


Too much to even bother comparing.

-HRose / Abalieno
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daveNYC
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Reply #6 on: July 21, 2004, 05:41:15 PM

In ToA, the quests are the levels.
Nebu
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Reply #7 on: July 21, 2004, 05:46:27 PM

What I'd like to know is how the quests in WoW differ from those in Progressquest?

Let me summarize:  

1) Fetch-me quests
2) Kill x foozles quests
3) Placate ___ quests (item running or see 1 & 2)

Doing what someone tells you as a distraction to get experience still boils down to the age-old stuff we've all seen ad nauseum.  Even CoH, a game with a damn fine combat system, still boiled down to get task, run to instanced dungeon, kill stuff for exp.  Sure it's fun for the first few times, but then it gets to be the grind that we've all done SO many times before.

I want to know what makes these quests so much better than any system before?  Anyone willing to give me some insight?  I don't seem to find it in the faq or on the Blizzard boards.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
HRose
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Reply #8 on: July 21, 2004, 06:22:24 PM

I've discussed this too much, really. So my happiness about discussing it again isn't at the maximum level. There are entire threads and pages I wrote over at QT3. About how much WoW differes from the frustration Vs. reward model that I consider crap.

I also wrote an infinite review/plan as I entered the beta at the end of March but it's unpublished right now.

About the quests I still have this bit : http://www.cesspit.net/ravings/archives/2004-07/wow_isnt_a_mmorpg.html
Quote
The starting point is that WoW is offering a new way to deal with the treadmill. I discussed about this in the past and I won't repeat here. The fact is that the feeling of "grind" is noticeable a lot less in WoW than any other mmorpg. Why? because WoW is based on a very well thought and planned quest system. Instead of "camping" a spot you are pushed to move throughout the world "to do things". Doing things feels a lot better than repeating the same action over and over and over. It gives you a better feeling of accomplishment. And the final result is that you are "having fun". Something new to the genre. And it's not sarcasm, sadly. My opinion is that WoW offers the best treadmill on the market due to these solutions. We can argue that a good treadmill isn't a perfect dream but it's already something different and improved from the general, poor level.


I'll also quote Anyuzer:
Quote
World of Warcraft is actually brilliant on a lot of levels. Brilliant. Wish I could tell you why, but it's complex (like 10 pages complex).

-HRose / Abalieno
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Morfiend
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Reply #9 on: July 21, 2004, 06:27:02 PM

Quote from: Nebu
What I'd like to know is how the quests in WoW differ from those in Progressquest?

Let me summarize:  

1) Fetch-me quests
2) Kill x foozles quests
3) Placate ___ quests (item running or see 1 & 2)

Doing what someone tells you as a distraction to get experience still boils down to the age-old stuff we've all seen ad nauseum.  Even CoH, a game with a damn fine combat system, still boiled down to get task, run to instanced dungeon, kill stuff for exp.  Sure it's fun for the first few times, but then it gets to be the grind that we've all done SO many times before.

I want to know what makes these quests so much better than any system before?  Anyone willing to give me some insight?  I don't seem to find it in the faq or on the Blizzard boards.



Well for one the sheer veriaty of types of quests. They have so many different things. A few examples.

As low level undead, I recieved a quest to get 10 pumpking for the alchemist in the small town of Brill. So I went to a field close by that was growing pumpkins. Unfortunatly it was patrolled by human farmers, and they didnt take kindly to me strolling up and taking their pumpkins. As a warrior, I waded in and killed my way to each pumpkin. After a hard won battle in the field, I returned to the alchemist, and give him my hard won pumpkins. The alchemist proceeded to mix me a potion, and had me take it to a captured alliance member (NPC) in the local inn's basement. I fed the pumpkin potion to the captive, and he then wandered around the rooom, and turned in to an undead, then fell down dead.

Yes, a lot of the quests have kill X and bring me Y that he drops. but they are done in such a way to make it feel more story driven.

Say, you get a quest to find 2 mission guards. After finding the guards, you see one of them is ill, and needs a composit of bear hearts to get well. After finding the bear hearts and brining them to the guard, he becomes well enough to talk to you. Telling you that he was hurrassed by some undead knolls. This leads to a 8 piece quest arch, ending up with you fighting your way in to a castle and killing the leader.

It really is hard for me to describe it, but it FEELS like you are questing, and following a story, not just camping mobs ro doing fedex quests, even though you do do just that.
Soukyan
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Reply #10 on: July 22, 2004, 07:12:36 AM

Quote from: Morphiend
Quote from: Nebu
What I'd like to know is how the quests in WoW differ from those in Progressquest?

Let me summarize:  

1) Fetch-me quests
2) Kill x foozles quests
3) Placate ___ quests (item running or see 1 & 2)

Doing what someone tells you as a distraction to get experience still boils down to the age-old stuff we've all seen ad nauseum.  Even CoH, a game with a damn fine combat system, still boiled down to get task, run to instanced dungeon, kill stuff for exp.  Sure it's fun for the first few times, but then it gets to be the grind that we've all done SO many times before.

I want to know what makes these quests so much better than any system before?  Anyone willing to give me some insight?  I don't seem to find it in the faq or on the Blizzard boards.



Well for one the sheer veriaty of types of quests. They have so many different things. A few examples.

As low level undead, I recieved a quest to get 10 pumpking for the alchemist in the small town of Brill. So I went to a field close by that was growing pumpkins. Unfortunatly it was patrolled by human farmers, and they didnt take kindly to me strolling up and taking their pumpkins. As a warrior, I waded in and killed my way to each pumpkin. After a hard won battle in the field, I returned to the alchemist, and give him my hard won pumpkins. The alchemist proceeded to mix me a potion, and had me take it to a captured alliance member (NPC) in the local inn's basement. I fed the pumpkin potion to the captive, and he then wandered around the rooom, and turned in to an undead, then fell down dead.

Yes, a lot of the quests have kill X and bring me Y that he drops. but they are done in such a way to make it feel more story driven.

Say, you get a quest to find 2 mission guards. After finding the guards, you see one of them is ill, and needs a composit of bear hearts to get well. After finding the bear hearts and brining them to the guard, he becomes well enough to talk to you. Telling you that he was hurrassed by some undead knolls. This leads to a 8 piece quest arch, ending up with you fighting your way in to a castle and killing the leader.

It really is hard for me to describe it, but it FEELS like you are questing, and following a story, not just camping mobs ro doing fedex quests, even though you do do just that.


I'm sure I'll be intrigued by WoW and enjoy it just as much once I get the chance to play it, but CoH already does this for their quests and missions. While I'm sure the stories are interesting the first time through (yes, I know there are different quests for each race or whatever, but quest type within each of those will be repetitive with different names/places/items), they will become the same old stuff. Beta is the time for high hopes and rose colored glasses. I take the stance of skeptic only because I'd rather be pleasantly surprised instead of disappointed. As to CoH running out of missions and having to level to continue them, I've seen several WoW beta testers write that they've run short on quests several times during the course of leveling up so... we shall see. I will be quite happy if they actually have captured the immersion factor. I will be even more pleased if they manage to keep that immersion factor if I replay the game as the same race, but different class. Of course, if it takes too long to level, the replayability will be killed instantly for me. I want variety this time around... not tedium.

"Life is no cabaret... we're inviting you anyway." ~Amanda Palmer
"Tree, awesome, numa numa, love triangle, internal combustion engine, mountain, walk, whiskey, peace, pascagoula" ~Lantyssa
"Les vrais paradis sont les paradis qu'on a perdus." ~Marcel Proust
HRose
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Reply #11 on: July 22, 2004, 02:04:02 PM

Anyuzer:
Quote
The whole thing is, I own City of Heroes. I have an account. Somewhere, not being leveled because I find World of Warcraft wildly more entertaining, there is a character named ĎThe Blue Baroní who is mid level, amuses me infinitely, and is fun to play around with.

Iíve spent an extensive amount of time with City of Heroes, and City of Heroes is lacking something. It lacks depth. And I mean that on a massive level. When I did my beta review of it, people told me to play longer and then talk about it again. Alright, I am, it still lacks depth. Itís just not there.


You may not believe me now, but World of Warcraft is a surprisingly decent game, and when you compare the two, you instantly know which one has Ďmoreí depth. I donít think either game has enough depth, but when it comes to which game is more rewarding to invest time into, City of Heroes isnít even on the old Richter scale.


And NiB:
Quote
Do i drop it to play WoW beta everytime i can (even alone)? Hell yea.
Will i still be paying it when WoW is out? No. -)

WoW vs. CoH its like comparing Everquest to Ultima Online to me, good games but you can't seriosly compare then.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Riggswolfe
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Reply #12 on: July 22, 2004, 02:44:53 PM

WoW has that something that is hard to define that makes it hard to stop playing. I've got my character up to 35 and have explored maybe 1/3 of the world in the course of it.

The quests while most of them are
Kill X mobs
or Collect Y drops off of mobs

They do have some really creative story arcs mixed in. The instances aren't as numerous as marketing makes you believe. I've been in oh, 4 or 5 instances or so so far.

WoW also has interesting loot. Both of the "Ooooo I want that sword" variety and the "that's effing hilarious". (I saw one labeled essential cookbook. When you moused over it it had the subtitle "How to Serve Man". Old reference to an old Twilight Zone episode).

I even find silly stuff like fishing fun. Got drunk in game with a guy the other night and fished. (My character did.) You drink enough alcohol and everything you type comes out slurred and with hiccups mixed in. It seemed fitting for fishing. I managed to find a locked chest while fishing and a 17 pound fish I could hold in my hand to show off. (Which I later used to beat a bear senseless with. Totally on accident because I forgot to requip my weapon but it was still funny as hell. Raised my unarmed skill in the process.)

WoW is the first game in a long time that I already have "I remember when..." types of stories to tell.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Nebu
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Reply #13 on: July 22, 2004, 02:59:43 PM

Thanks for this info (Riggs, HRose, Soukyan, Morphiend).  What struck me profoundly was how many people that I know who have transformed from jaded_mmogplayer to WoW_fan.  

Yes, the art still drives me nuts... yes, the game still holds many of the pitfalls of its predicessors, but Blizzard seems to have done it a tad better than earlier incarnations.  This really shouldn't surprise me... what is Diablo but a reincarnation of games created much earlier.  

I'm now a bit more inclined to adopt a more positive attitude about this game.  Hell, I will probably plunk down some cash at release to give it a try.  Then if I have a negative opinion, I'll be more qualified to spew it.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Morfiend
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Reply #14 on: July 22, 2004, 05:22:58 PM

Quote from: Soukyan
I'm sure I'll be intrigued by WoW and enjoy it just as much once I get the chance to play it, but CoH already does this for their quests and missions.


In my opinion, the quests in WoW are a world away and beyond CoH quests.

In CoH there seem to be basically 4 quests.

1) Go from contact to NPC. (Usually starts another quest)
2) Go in 1 of 4 or 5 dungeons and kill every thing.
3) Go in 1 of 4 or 5 dungeons and kill almost every thing trying to find some thing.
4) Kill X-amount of Y mobs.


What really sucks about CoH is it gets VERY repetitive. I couldnt stand it. Afer doing what amounts to the same quest in each floorplan over 15+ times, I got really bored with it. In WoW, you are constantly moving on to new places and such. In CoH by lvl 15, I really felt the grind kicking in. While in about 4 times as much play time in WoW, I still get that "What cool thing am I going to see/do today?" feeling every time I log in. Thats what I REALLY like. Unlike CoH, where I knew I would log in, and hunt down the same mobs in the same dungeons as I had been for the last week.
eldaec
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Reply #15 on: July 22, 2004, 05:30:48 PM

While your basic point is fair, CoH has way more than 4 or 5 dungeons, and way more than 4 or 5 villian groups which play considerably more differently than your typical range of mobs in EQ/DAoC etc.

They do all boil down to kill everything in a building and/or touch all the glowies, kill x of y outside, or do a fedex, however.

The problem of only seeing a few different floorplans is something you leave behind as you level up (though it is replaced by the problem of pitiful mission rewards meaning few groups will actually agree to 'waste time' entering one).

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ≠assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Riggswolfe
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Reply #16 on: July 22, 2004, 05:51:58 PM

I did enjoy COH but yes, one of the big things that is different between it and WoW is that every "zone" feels different. I can tell within seconds I'm in a new area, whether it be something subtle like minute color changes or a totally new feel like the cobweb and undead infested forests of the Duskwood.

So far I've seen a fairly wide variety of creatures and even last night I ended up in an area that was totally new with mobs I'd never seen before. (As well as Goblins and Gnomes racing what looked like steam driven mechs around a home made race course)

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Soukyan
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Reply #17 on: July 22, 2004, 09:16:27 PM

Well, I'll give it that. It will hold its charm until it turns into something else in terms of gameplay. Let's be realistic, we all felt the same way the first time in the world of EQ, then 3 years later, we were sitting at the keyboard saying, "WTF am I doing still playing this?!" And that's not a bad thing. A MMOG that can capture gamers for years and keep them entertained is certainly a winning combo for both gamer and developer.

"Life is no cabaret... we're inviting you anyway." ~Amanda Palmer
"Tree, awesome, numa numa, love triangle, internal combustion engine, mountain, walk, whiskey, peace, pascagoula" ~Lantyssa
"Les vrais paradis sont les paradis qu'on a perdus." ~Marcel Proust
Riggswolfe
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Reply #18 on: July 23, 2004, 03:15:31 PM

I have a notorious short attention span for MMOs either because it begins to feel like a job, I don't like how some system is implemented (combat in SWG, melee in AC), or I flat out get bored by repetitiveness/grinding.

WoW so far has none of that going with it. I'm playing a human character. Got him fairly high level (37) and have come to realize I've seen almost nothing of the night elf areas and maybe 1/3 of the dwarf/gnome areas. I've seen maybe 1/4 of the continent the elves are on (Kalimdor) and maybe 1/3 - 1/2 of the human/dwarf continent. I've seen nothing of Horde gameplay or areas other than where there is some overlap.

My biggest worry is that beta is going to be so long I'll have seen alot by the time they release the game.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Morfiend
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Reply #19 on: July 24, 2004, 02:38:03 AM

Riggs,

The WoW dev team has stated they are keeping several (like 10) zones just in internal testing, so no matter how much beta you play, there will be new content at release.

Good thing or bad, I am undecided, but thats what they said.
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Reply #20 on: July 24, 2004, 02:44:58 AM

Quote from: Morphiend
Riggs,

The WoW dev team has stated they are keeping several (like 10) zones just in internal testing, so no matter how much beta you play, there will be new content at release.

Good thing or bad, I am undecided, but thats what they said.


Whoa, that's what David Bowman said!

Now, I'm not saying that Blizzard is AE. Just that it was a stupid idea then and it's a stupid idea now.
NiX
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Reply #21 on: July 24, 2004, 11:40:34 AM

Thanks for all the info. It sounds like the only downfall to WoW I can see is the fanbase.

Makes me wish I got into the beta. Hrm, when does the europe beta start?
Signe
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Reply #22 on: July 24, 2004, 12:06:38 PM

Quote from: NiX
Thanks for all the info. It sounds like the only downfall to WoW I can see is the fanbase.

Makes me wish I got into the beta. Hrm, when does the europe beta start?


Google is your friend.  

http://www.wow-europe.com/signup/en/wowbeta/index.php

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Murgos
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Reply #23 on: July 24, 2004, 01:42:08 PM

In an aside, anyone want to trade a WoW beta account for a Wish beta-2 account?

No?  Crap, didn't think so.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
geldonyetich
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Reply #24 on: July 24, 2004, 07:51:58 PM

Got my Wish-2 beta invite as well.   It won't be starting until fall, however.

I'm pretty sure I didn't register for Wow beta.  I think I tried, but the servers were lagged down to inoperability when beta registration was on.   Oh well, I've ore than enough going on with my MMORPG scene right now anyway.

WoW is claiming they'll to pull an open beta before release, so if it's a preview we're after we'll likely have nothing to worry about but Blizzard changing their mind.

HRose
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Reply #25 on: July 25, 2004, 01:15:48 AM

Quote from: geldonyetich
Got my Wish-2 beta invite as well.   It won't be starting until fall, however.


Got mine too, and sent directly to the trash can.
I WASTED way too much time on the beta. I think I wrote around 600 posts of dense design discussions and suggestions.

What an incredible waste of work and time...

-HRose / Abalieno
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geldonyetich
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Reply #26 on: July 25, 2004, 02:00:26 AM

Oh?
Quote from: Beta Email Info
This fall, we will be launching our second beta phase and would like to invite you to come and test out the changes to the game. Over the last few months, we have undertaken a wealth of changes including upgraded graphics, a refined skill system, and a totally redesigned combat system. We have also added a wealth of features, such as a robust crafting system.

I'd say they were paying attention.

However, I'll have to see it firsthand to determine for certain.

NiX
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Reply #27 on: July 25, 2004, 06:53:11 AM

Quote from: Signe

I'm signed up, I'm just wondering when it actually starts.
Signe
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Muse.


Reply #28 on: July 25, 2004, 09:25:06 AM

Just for your information, from the boards which must never be named:

This is what Lepidus, Mutable Realms World Designer, said regarding Wish Beta 2.0:

"If you sign up, you will be accepted."


Wish becomes the new champion for easiest beta to get into.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
schild
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Reply #29 on: July 25, 2004, 02:39:13 PM

I don't know, Horizons was pretty easy. But none of us knew what we were really signing up for was Anal Invasions.
Alluvian
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Reply #30 on: July 26, 2004, 01:18:53 PM

Quote
1) Go from contact to NPC. (Usually starts another quest)
2) Go in 1 of 4 or 5 dungeons and kill every thing.
3) Go in 1 of 4 or 5 dungeons and kill almost every thing trying to find some thing.
4) Kill X-amount of Y mobs.


The problem with CoH is that they release the content abit slow.  I think that the maps that now open around level 20 should open around level 15.  The 4 or 5 dungeons confuses me though.  They have 4 or 5 dungeon TEMPLATES, and about 20 or so different maps in each one (not randomly generated but put together by template map segments that give them the random feel).

The new templates open up at 20 or so, with the Nazi bunkers, the CoH underground cities (fucking STUNNING, nothing like the shitty caves), the Crey labs... then more unlock as you continue to play.  The alternate dimensions are really neat, but high end content that I am not up to yet.  I am currently doing duo missions with lots of lowbies with my wife.  Finding the different characters a very different playstyle and very much enjoying the game.  Not something I would play anymore for hours on end, but great for casual fun.  Like I played AO actually.  2-4 hours a night or so is good fun for me.
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Reply #31 on: July 26, 2004, 04:02:06 PM

I got my Wish Beta 2 invite and went through the whole rigamarole.

I'm sure there are 3 goats waiting for me to login as we speak.

Signe
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Muse.


Reply #32 on: July 26, 2004, 04:17:42 PM

Stop with the goats, already!  You are becoming obsessed!  Anyway, it's cracking me up and I'm in no mood to laugh.  I just spilled coffee on Righ's laptop.  :(  He's going to kill me when he gets home.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
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Reply #33 on: July 27, 2004, 02:35:49 PM

Quote from: HaemishM
I got my Wish Beta 2 invite and went through the whole rigamarole.

I'm sure there are 3 goats waiting for me to login as we speak.

Haha, my quote lives on in at least one mind.  :D
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