where’s the innovation?

[Belzac]

This article say look to the indies and imports for innovation in games.

I think we all agree not  much new is being released my the mainstream game companies.

[schmoo]

I don't have much of anything to say about this article except that I find "Dung Beetle: The Game" oddly intriguing, for some reason.

[koboshi]

I think this points once again to the fact that games are following in films footsteps. We are now in the studio age A.K.A. the golden age of cinema. (Hum... what equates to the studio musical)  There will always be work done outside the studios and it’s just a matter of time before some director processes the interesting elements of the "avant guard" and re-packages it for mass consumption. Think of them as spices... you wouldn’t want to consume them alone
(Read, mouthful of cumin seeds) but if you use them in smaller amounts they can enhance your favorite recipes.

 Exa. Ninja Gaiden: RPG character improvement, 3D platformer world, adventure game locks, fighting game moves, FPS arrows.  Now all we need is a fat guy and a skinny guy for comic relief... 'course I haven’t finished the game there might be.  The more elements you add the more rounded the game becomes.  But variety is the spice of life and so innovation in necessary, and that comes from outside the system.

[Kyper]

(Hum... what equates to the studio musical)

Big budget.  Over the top.  Cast of thousands.  Everything and the kitchen sink:  SWG.

[sergex]

I think the next major step towards innovation is from the direct download means of getting the games into gamers' hands.  Before broadband was more common, dev houses were forced to make deals with publishers to get their games onto shelves.  If the games weren't on store shelves, there's no way they could reach a mass audience.  

Now, with solely using the internet for advertising and distribution any game that is good enough can reach a substantial audience.  Take http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Illwinter/d2/1.htm  as an example.   The game Dominions 2 isn't on store shelves ANYWHERE, but has a large following of people who paid $50 to get it directly mailed to them.  It's a niche game for fantasy wargamers, but it shows how an indie can be successful without selling their souls to the big publishers.

[Matt]

I think the next major step towards innovation is from the direct download means of getting the games into gamers' hands.  Before broadband was more common, dev houses were forced to make deals with publishers to get their games onto shelves.  If the games weren't on store shelves, there's no way they could reach a mass audience.  

I think the intention of what you're saying is good, but I don't think it matches up to what's likely to happen. What a publisher does is create a bar that has to be passed (usually) in order to get to market. Now, that bar may not be all that high but it's a hell of a lot higher than the average game that would be presented to you otherwise. If you doubt me, look at the text mud market. 95% of text games are somewhat modified crap that some kid downloaded without even a basic understanding of the game he/she is running.

Take the internet puzzle game market. It's huge. It has far more players than the MMORPG market does, at least in the West. Games like Bejeweled are ridiculously popular and some game portals, like Popcap, have cleaned up. But, most puzzle game developers I talk to (who are largely people who got disgruntled with the mainstream games industry and went out on their own) are currently complaining that it's becoming harder and harder to make a living, because there are more and more puzzle developers trying to compete for the eyeballs of consumers, which forces them to go to web publishers like Gamehouse and Yahoo in order to reach a large enough audience to make it worthwhile. Of course, just like games on a shelf, most of them don't have the bargaining power to force a publisher into a deal that's going to be particularly profitable for the developer.

And that's what publishers do: They put your game in front of eyeballs. Just having a game available means very little, just as simply having an MP3 up on the web means very little. You need a way to aggregate users and reach them with a limited selection of games that have passed at least some quality marker. As the games market matures, I think you can expect to see an arrangement that is substantially like the retail arrangement except that the publisher, distributor, and retailer may be the same entity, for awhile at least.

Essentially, the public will demand, implicitly, the services of publishers who will be able to point large volumes of people at select games, just like now.

What's the solution? I don't claim to know. We do very well but there are only two of us in text muds doing seven figures annually (Simutronics is the other.), which is nothing compared to successful games externally published. A handful of puzzle developers do really well. If I was pressed, I think I'd have to say that it's a problem that doesn't really need solving because it's not a problem. Regardless of how banal it is, most people want sequels and licensed games.

If you want to buck that model you better be able to produce some awfully compelling gameplay, and most people are simply not capable of that production job, being used to distracting people/being distracted by flashy graphics and sound. Further, you better be able to take advantage of a pre-existing community, or somehow garner your own community cheaply (much harder to do.).

The internet doesn't really change anything for 90% of developers It's just a new kind of shelf space for them.
--matt

[sergex]

Well the problem with your example I think is there isn't much to differentiate one puzzle game from another.  They all use the same template and you just add new graphics to it.  In that case, it's all about advertising and packaging of multiple puzzles together.  I'm talking about a totally innovative game that will make people go crazy.  However, the problem is that there is a lot of overhead that goes into making a lot of games now so devs sell out to a publisher really fast to get development dollars.  

I really believe that if that wasn't the case, say they found a private investor, then they could develop in on their own with their own schedule and release it on a website when it was finished.  They can circumvent the whole retail store market if they didn't need the publisher money to back them.  If the game were a hit, they would make more money in the end because they have less of the proceeds going to the publisher.  Unless of course bandwith costs exceeds the percentage a publisher would take.

[daveNYC]

Well the problem with your example I think is there isn't much to differentiate one puzzle game from another.

That's also a favorite gripe about MMORPGs.  Go fig.

[Alluvian]

Oh god let direct download shit die on the vine.  Why would I want to pay full price (anyone who thinks direct download will be cheaper has lost it) to spend my time and my bandwidth to get a copy of a game that I then have to spend MORE time burning to cd's that cost me more money if I want to have a backup.  Otherwise I lose all my fucking games the next time my OS gets hosed or I have a hard drive failure.

[daveNYC]

Now, with solely using the internet for advertising and distribution any game that is good enough can reach a substantial audience.  Take http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Illwinter/d2/1.htm  as an example.   The game Dominions 2 isn't on store shelves ANYWHERE, but has a large following of people who paid $50 to get it directly mailed to them.  It's a niche game for fantasy wargamers, but it shows how an indie can be successful without selling their souls to the big publishers.[/quote]
My problem with that, is that I didn't even know that such a product even existed until I read this thread.  Not a whole lot of market penetration going on there.

[Resvrgam]

Since this is a hit-driven industry now and things have gotten way too bloated for their own good, companies avoid risk by avoiding new & innovative ideas.  The sad fact is: games are too expensive to produce this day and age to have it “flop.”   This is why we’re starting to see more and more companies going under or being bought out.  The games industry is way too volatile and has been made this way because of greed and disorganization.  Like a catch twenty-two: risk aversion creates stagnancy which leads to crumbling companies but new and outlandish innovations are too risky for companies to bother taking which is why they avoid it/them.

It seems everyone has their hands in the cookie jar now and the problem with companies getting larger and larger is they lose sight of the product they’re supposed to be promoting by gaining size (too many middle men).  A huge conglomerate won’t have the same insight as a group of dedicated nerds in their basement but they do possess the financial resources to throw at their problems.  That seems to be a trend started a long time ago in a flawed business model: throw money at the problem (it may cure the symptoms but it doesn’t cure the disease).

As the years have passed and the “evolution” of the industry from the days of 5.25 floppies in zip-lock baggies to the “Special Collector’s Edition DVDs” has come and passed, we’re seeing only improvements in graphics and sound – the glamour, not the substance.    Granted, visionaries such as Peter Molyneux are trying their best to break the paradigm of “we’ll make the same old crap with a new candy-coating” most other companies seem to follow but he’s just one sparkle in a night sky of stagnant game design.   How many sequels to we need to see before we’re fully convinced originality and innovation are lost to us?

I can’t speak for everyone when I say this but: I find that OLD games from the 16-bit consoles and prior seem to hold my attention far longer than the new crap I’m seeing slapped together with 4x the budget.   I think the industry as a whole should get over themselves and start taking unconventional steps toward acquiring new talent…instead of hiring people born with a silver spoon up their ass, their relatives or old college buddies.   The current methods are stifling growth.  Do we not learn from past mistakes?!  Did 1983 and Atari not teach us anything?!  Was the Dot-bomb crash not a loud enough wake-up call?

I think the MOD community is hampered by the inability to wrangle “motivated” people willing to work long hours without pay.  If there were programs like “Project Greenlight” (which were created because Hollywood’s been plagued by the same creative-constipation as this industry) that could be implemented to assist potential “game-designers in the making”, we’d probably start seeing the boost in innovation this industry now lacks.   Microcosms of jaded veterans and ill-motivated rich-kids won’t propel this industry into the future it deserves.

I was told by a very wise person once: “When you can’t make sense of something just follow the money.”  Well, since short-sighted business execs who rake in their six-figure a year salaries are only focusing on the immediate profits, they will ultimately strangle their companies into a buy-out or chapter 11 filing because they fail to see a bigger picture.

The solution, IMO:  We need new talent and unorthodox hiring principles.  Hiring degrees instead of talent or inviting your friends and family into your business won’t be the sufficient force needed to pave a way into the future frontier of this fledging industry.

The 2004 GDC was a real eye-opener at the elitism and failing structure this dot-bomb-in-the-making industry has adopted.   I’m not trying to be Chicken Little and incite a riot of an impending falling sky.  There are measures to change this fate but since myopia and elitism makes many turn a deaf ear, it’s something people like me can only sit and watch unfold. It doesn’t take a bad Jamaican accent to foresee this future.

[SirBruce]

Now, this I like:


Welcome to the board, Resvrgam.

Bruce

[Alluvian]

I dont' think puzzle games was a good example.  For reasons already given.  They mostly suck ass and are pretty much all the same.  When I see one that is innovative I buy it and encourage others to as well through word of mouth.

I want creative games.  Like "Gish" for example.  That game was awesomely creative.  Made by the same company that did bridge constructor kit and "BridgeIT", Chronic Logic.  http://www.chroniclogic.com/gish/  It is a side scroller game where you play a blob of tar.  The game is full of physics and the object of the game is to manipulate your blob of tar through the levels.  You can get sticky to climb up walls and even cielings if you are careful.  You can become slippery to fit down small tubes, you can become rigid for several purposes (defense, increasing your density to sink, throwing a small object on top of you upwards), and you can 'jump'.  Jump is just shifting your center of gravity up suddenly.  It won't always jump if you are not set properly.  you can also shift your center of gravity with the controller.  Using this in conjuncion with jump and some timing gets you bouncing.  Check out the demo if you have not.

Games like that are what I eat up.

There was a racing puzzle game recently that was also awesome.  The puzzle was to race your car from point a to point b in the time given.  the trick was that you made the course with the pieces given (limited by what level you were on).  And there were of course obstacles in your way.  So you had to make the fastest course you could and then actually drive it well to pass each level.  Can't remember the name of that game, but it was refreshing.  It also had fun multiplayer to race others on the courses you made.

[Resvrgam]

Welcome to the board, Resvrgam.
Bruce

Thanks. :) It's great to be here

[Furiously]

So, there I am reading your game description..."Lost Prophecies: Shadows of Winter - This is an epic adventure experienced through the eyes of a courageous squire battling both the forces of evil and the hardships of an under-privileged social caste."

Only I read Squirrel instead of Squire...And thought.."Cool - like Lummewinks!"

[RipSnort]

I think indie development teams can offer innovations if their aspirations are realistic. Rather than making entire games, concentrate on one aspect. Develop a unique combat system, an unusual AI pathing method or physics for a persistant world that doesn't eat up bandwidth etc. Sport the source around the internet or pitch to a large devloper as a "third party" tool for integration into their game.
I've gotten involved in a couple of projects that were just pipe dreams. Once the members of the team realized the magnitude of the work involved in creating a game they would disappear. Those that have the discipline to stick it out seem only to want to make a game just like "sauch an such" game except 'we'll have really cool armor". I don't see the point in that since the graphics and content will never stand up to what a professional devloper can produce.
In the vein of COH focus on one component and approach it from outside the box.

[Resvrgam]

I think indie development teams can offer innovations if their aspirations are realistic.  

I agree with many of your points but also think the reason 99.9% of Indie/MOD development teams fail is due to more than just lofty aspirations.

Sure, lack of experience will undoubtedly spark unrealistic goals in the minds of those who do not fully comprehend the magnitude of what it takes to make a game, but for those of us who are well aware of the required efforts, we’re left in the ashes of continually failing projects while our teammates abandon ship when the work starts getting “less than fun.”

I’ve been a member of one MOD team or another for 8 years now.  I’ve crossed paths with many talented people within the projects I’ve been apart of and had some truly unique and innovative ideas filter through the groups I’ve been a member of.  

All of these teams failed.  

They didn’t fail because of over-ambitious game design or unrealistic workloads; they failed because there was little to no return on investment for the amount of time, money and effort they placed within each project.   Game construction isn’t about instant gratification and when many of these members find themselves trying to juggle a real (see: paying) job, a family life and something remotely considered a social life into the mix, the first ball that gets dropped is the one that is taking all of the time, energy and money away with no immediate return – the Indie/MOD project.

Fortunately, I’m an obsessive/compulsive person.  I don’t drink, do drugs (including smoking) and rival a hermit’s social life.   This has made me the last remaining crew member to go down with the ship more times than I care to remember.  

I’ve carried projects up a steep cliff by my teeth all the while dragging the dead weight of ill-motivated team members with me in hopes for them to eventually become inspired as I have been with the project.  To my dismay, people our age (18-40), have other obligations in their lives and cannot usually devote the necessary time into projects that do not yield some form of extrinsic reward (e.g. money).   This sad fact has led to many a group dissolution and project cancellation.   The obsessive/compulsive people do not need any external motivation but are usually helpless when attempting to tackle a project that requires multiple team members with different facets (Modeler, Texture Artist, Animator, Level Designer, Script Writer, Programmer, etc.).  This is why I’d love to see venture capitalists take the initiative to offer external motivation to fill in the gaps missing within a group containing only a single obsessive/compulsive member who may only fulfill one or two facets required to succeed (ala “Project Greenlight”).

Sure, everyone has a great idea for a game.  There’s no shortage of people who think themselves creative.  The biggest problem is: creativity, functionality & reality do not always walk hand and hand.  Ideas that may sound brilliant to the creator may in all actuality be complete and utter crap to the target demographic (if there even is one beyond the creator).  

The unfortunate reality of the situation is: Rich Kids get to explore this route while the rest of us wallow in ranting and raving to deaf ears.   If there was a way for the nobodies’ voices to be heard as loud as the Rich Kids’ we’d have a larger influx of ideas that would need to be filtered through but the possibility of finding that winning lotto ticket in a sea of “good ideas” will only be more frequent when the “ideas” are approached as products of passion – not profit.  

So how does one discern what is motivated by passion vs. profit?  That would be a very subjective call but evidence of a labour of love is usually found when a direct interview is conducted.  The zeal by which material is presented and the abundance of it, may just reveal a group to possess one of those obsessive/compulsive members in which new, innovative and functional ideas are born from.

John Carmack is a great example of an obsessed dreamer who was compelled to actualize his ideas.  He couldn’t do it alone and we’d be without one of the greatest innovations in gaming history if it weren’t for his fellow motivated team members.  John Romero may have had different goals than his ingenious, misanthropic, possessed, programmer-teammate, but his role in the actualization of the “idea” into reality was no less crucial (he simply possessed another facet required for the team to work).  Though the only reason this idea was even given any credence because this team was comprised of Rich Kids.

To sum up this rant into a shorter, more manageable explanation:

Indies can’t create games all alone and since truly self-motivated people are rare: Indies may face the unfair reality that 99.9% of their projects will fail not because of unrealistic aspirations, but be cause of lack of priorities on the part of those who do not share their passion/availability for the project.  If proper motivation was supplied, innovation and growth would be more prevalent.  

Sorry for the long rant.  If you ignored it or breezed through to the last paragraph, I’d understand.  These may be the inane ravings of some anonymous forum member but, I’ve had 8 long years to study certain patterns developing within this industry.  That, and I’m   little bitter with being denied entry into this industry so take what’s said with a grain of salt ;)