Echoes of Faydwer

[Glazius]

someone someday needs to make an MMO which has the intelligence to scale encounters (instanced or not) based on if you are grouped or solo and change the payouts and rewards accordingly.  How hard is that?

Can't be that hard, I hear Cryptic Studios is going to come out with something like that in another -3 years.

It's a lot harder if you have to take items into account.

Man, are you going to keep moving this bullseye or what?

But even then, it's not like there are two completely separated and unrelated curves called "character power" and "gear power" which go up in arbitrary ways. There's one long curve called "character + gear power" which goes up at pretty much a consistent rate. Except near the end where you can't get any more character power, only more gear power, and then you're at "the endgame" which just means you move up the curve at a much more glacial pace.

Also, I wish I could unread that thread in the original reference. It seems to be somewhat full of people who are so desperate to believe they're enjoying themselves that they have to shout it loudly to anyone who comes nearby. Is every forum thread like that?

--GF

[Trippy]

someone someday needs to make an MMO which has the intelligence to scale encounters (instanced or not) based on if you are grouped or solo and change the payouts and rewards accordingly.  How hard is that?

Can't be that hard, I hear Cryptic Studios is going to come out with something like that in another -3 years.

It's a lot harder if you have to take items into account.

Man, are you going to keep moving this bullseye or what?

But even then, it's not like there are two completely separated and unrelated curves called "character power" and "gear power" which go up in arbitrary ways. There's one long curve called "character + gear power" which goes up at pretty much a consistent rate. Except near the end where you can't get any more character power, only more gear power, and then you're at "the endgame" which just means you move up the curve at a much more glacial pace.

CoH's mission difficulty scaling algorithm is about as basic as it could possibly be. It doesn't even take into account the levels of all the party members, just the level of the mission owner. Now I haven't played EQ II for ages now so I'm sure things have changed quite a bit but originally while items did have level ranges they still could vary quite a bit in effectiveness within a given range. And then for spells/skills there were various ranks you could research or buy scrolls for that would boost the effectiveness of those spells/skills.

You could just do it the simplistic way like CoH does and base it on just the level of the quest owner and the total number of group members but I'm claiming there's a much larger variability in character "power" between equal level characters in EQ II than in CoH so just doing it the CoH way would either make it too easy or too hard for the majority of the groups.

I'm not saying that designing such an algorithm for EQ II would be near-impossible just that compared to CoH's it would be quite a bit more difficult to get it more-or-less balanced right.

[geldonyetich]

If you're trying to make a mechanic that balances some instanced content to work for a specific group, it can be really difficult depending on how sophisticated your character balance is.  I've got to sympathise with Cryptic when I say that the way they allowed players to customize their heroes/villains assured that rarely are two characters at teh same level of potency, even when they're the same archetype.  The eventual solution they came up with is for the players to assign themselves one of five difficulty levels (through an NPC) that adjusts the foes they're likely to encounter.  It's a pretty good mechanic, it works.

I've seen a bit of EQ2's instanced content when I was betraying with my Swashbuckler.  Basically, they instanced all the mobs in the mission at the level of my character.  Unfortunately, despite the mission being equal leveled and the encounters being balanced to be soloable, my Swashy (then a Brigand) couldn't handle many of them in a toe to toe fight.  If I were an Illusionist/Coercer, Conjurer/Necromancer, or a Fighter type I probably could have done it, but my scout-type (despite having excellent gear and upgraded skills) couldn't. 

That's just another example of how hard instanced missions are to try to autobalance.  Due to the power disparities between different characters or parties, it'd take a considerable amount of work coming up with a mechanic that works for everybody.  Some games may be able to get around this by having very simple characters whose power can be easily balanced as equal regardless of class.  For the rest, Cryptic's solution that allows players to adjust their own difficulty is probably the quickest way to go about forming autoscaling instances that works well.

[Falconeer]

Basically, they instanced all the mobs in the mission at the level of my character.  Unfortunately, despite the mission being equal leveled and the encounters being balanced to be soloable, my Swashy (then a Brigand) couldn't handle many of them in a toe to toe fight.

Beware!
I've seen this kind of complains a thousand times in EQ2. Lots of my younger guildees had the same issues, coming from different games, and they were so pissed off that some quit over it, while others tried harder until they eventually found out how to face the challenge. I am not trying to say that you are not a competent gamer, I know you are more than excellent, but I could bet myself that those instances are always always always doable with any class in the game. Point is, often, you need to be just a little more geared than what's usually allowed in other mmorpgs or in similar areas in EQ2. Then you have lots of skills and spells (the good and the bad of EQ2 :( ) and you need to know your class well, not just spamming what seemed to work elsewhere, including heroic opportunities. Last but not least, what works with 90% of the mobs not always works  in instances that are, in most cases, way more challenging.
I am not trying to say that the classes are perfectly balanced, of course they aren't. And there's lot of classes in a 24 jobs MMORPG that can solo that same instance in a whiff while you have to sweat your pants. But still I am pretty sure that the instances all scales well enough. In fact, I used to appreciate the increased difficulty of most of those, especially cause I was playing them solo. It is one of the very few occasions in my MMORPG life that I had the feeling of a challenge I had to take and overcome with my character resources and not upon leveling over it or calling in friends.
A great example was the Pit Champion in the gnoll adventure pack. That was almost impossible for certain classes at first (now he is a pushover), especially warriors, but I tried about 10 times on it... and when I finally did it felt great. I knew it was doable, and at last he fell.
Pit champion aside, the instances are in my opinion very well tailored and scales well and I dare to say that 99% of those who complained about not being able to finish a solo scaling instances in EQ2 should just try harder or try a different approach.

In a era where MMORPG are almost on auto-play as you just need to overgear and overlevel the challenges, and you always need to be grouped, I warmly welcomed this kind of stuff.

On another note, if one of your point is that it's unfair that some classes have instanced soloable scaling zones where they can go and farm xp, while some others have to work to gain the edge of it, well then no, there's no balance in EQ2 and probably there's no way it can be, given the too large number of 24 classes. Even with the difficult selector available in some of those (normal, hard, harder).

[shiznitz]

Responding to geldon's population observation, it is worth noting that EoF is only 10 days old. That said, EQ2 hasn't looked this busy is a long time - if you are in the expansion. The non-raid content in the older expansions is largely empty. Sanctum of the Scaleborn, the best 60-65 level dungeon in KoS has 20% of the normla population. We couldn't even fill a group in there recently while before EoF, it wasn't uncommon to have a group in every major room.

I wouldn't recommend anyone return to EQ2 right now without EoF. That said, EoF is sweet. Lesser Faydark is a 50-60 soloer's paradise with all the quests available. I get better exp there solo at 61 doing level 55 quests than in a full group in Sanctum where the mobs are densely packed and all level 62+.

[Soln]

can you dual box EQ2?


I have no idea how to play the game now as a soloer when the bulk of people are not grouping (Im not guilded) or just out of zone or level, and all the green non-heroic/raid quests still require ^^^ heroics.  Only solution is to RMT up for gear and movement, and get a heal/buffbot.  Possible?

[Bandit]

Some games may be able to get around this by having very simple characters whose power can be easily balanced as equal regardless of class.  For the rest, Cryptic's solution that allows players to adjust their own difficulty is probably the quickest way to go about forming autoscaling instances that works well.

I see your point about character balance, but I think balance may be a bit in the eye of the beholder.  Sure, some classes may have an easier time soloing instances (Splitpaw, Tear Grifter quests, and betrayal are the only scaled content I know of) but do not function as well in a group setting.  A templar being the easy example, they bring a ton of utility and healage to a group, but not much to solo play.  A monk would solo the shit out of that instance, but is not the ideal group or raid tank.  Classes serve roles, not balance for everything.   I enjoy that there are huge differences and unbalance between the various classes....arguing about balance is becoming tiresome and counter-productive. Are some classes behind the eight-ball in all categories (bard, illusionist)? Sure, but those are the classes I enjoy to play the most, their abilities are very situational, but shine in those circumstances....they actually bring a real challenge to gameplay. 

Besides, Achievement points are easy enought to get anymore.....you want to spec your Swashie for a little more solo play (I think they are sufficient soloers already)? then the option is yours.

You think CoX has it right? pffft. I love that game, but talk about dull, oh-so-generic missions.  That is really the achilles heel of the franchise, IMHO. CoX is a blast for a month, then I dread seeing the same type of base encounters, same tile set and same map layout.  It's easy for them to scale the shit out the missions, because there is no too much to scale.....and not loot to worry about.

In summary, character balance is completely fucking overrated and makes for dull gameplay when it comes down to it.

EDIT- On another note, if your think a defender can solo the same "scaled" content a Mastermind can, then your outta yer mind.

[shiznitz]

can you dual box EQ2?


I have no idea how to play the game now as a soloer when the bulk of people are not grouping (Im not guilded) or just out of zone or level, and all the green non-heroic/raid quests still require ^^^ heroics.  Only solution is to RMT up for gear and movement, and get a heal/buffbot.  Possible?

I have never two-boxed and the prospect frightens me. However, my guildies who did it in EQ1 do it in EQ2 and say it is easier. These are not hardcore players, just people that are rarely on when the rest of us are but don't want to leave the "family."

One thing EoF has in spades are named solo mobs. They have a single up arrow and a few friend sometimes. They have a decent loot table (tiny chance to get a master chest) and you get good AA exp for killing each named the first time. The EoF AA system isn't as powerful as the KoS one, but buying EoF gives you all expansions to date, I believe.

There are still zones where any group smaller than 4 has no chance and more where a full group of appropriate level members will be seriously challenged. In some of the new dungeon zones, pulling is very important given the mob density. I haven't had to watch a mob's pathing before pulling since EQ2 started. Now you have to.

[Sky]

Sounds clear that you can't do solo heroic mobs anymore, which is funny to me because I could never anyways.

You could solo heroic mobs? News to me, that fucking quest orc mob outside Freeport was still handing me my ass when I last tried him.

I was enjoying my SK, but I'm concerned that he will quickly become not-fun because he is a gear-dependent class, and I never group, thus never get to do dungeons or heroic mobs that might give good gear.

As I was saying in the Vanguard thread, I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that mmo devs really aren't interested in crafting stuff for solo players. Throwing a few scraps and allowing non-dungeon adventure isn't my idea of a fun game.

I'm roleplaying Gandalf's retarded little brother who could never figure out the door to Moria.

[Soln]

yeah I could never solo any heroics, at best a single green ^.  There are at least 2 threads on official forums of soloers complaining stuff is more "boring" because heroics are apparently harder.  And so many quests and quest arcs are of course tied to finishing off some number of heroics.  To me I only need green ^^ and ^^^, but where the grey ^^^ can still kill me...

There's just something uncomfortable about moving zone to zone, or expansion to expansion with a quest log that still has 59 quests, maybe 2/3 of them that are green.  No exaggeration.  I don't know if I can $ agree with that.

[shiznitz]

My zerk can solo barely green heroic encounters with no ^^^ in them if I burn all my special AE attacks. 4 no arrow mobs drop quickly when I do this. With ^^^s it always comes down to the timing on the last few hits and whether or not my self-regen tics at the righ time. With the regen boost AAs in Eof, I bet odds would swing in my favor to 60-40 from 40-60.

[geldonyetich]

I've seen this kind of complains a thousand times in EQ2. Lots of my younger guildees had the same issues, coming from different games, and they were so pissed off that some quit over it, while others tried harder until they eventually found out how to face the challenge. I am not trying to say that you are not a competent gamer, I know you are more than excellent, but I could bet myself that those instances are always always always doable with any class in the game.

They might have actually screwed up some of the betrayal missions, because I was running into situations where there was a room full of encounters that would be an even fight, and they assisted if I attacked one.  I was able to do some of them quite well and it was just a good challenge, but in the cases where there was alot of assisting going on and not enough room to avoid that, it was a futile effort. 

I mentioned the classes because I suspect part of the problem was that I was a Scout class.  Even though I had mastercrafted imbued armor and weaponry of the appropriate tier to complement my Scout's maxed out evasion skill, even though I know how to fight in such a way as to exploit my stuns to get side and back hits in after the fight has started, even though I had used potions and totems to max my chances, and am a Heroic Opportunities master: my poor Scout simply didn't have much in the way of staying power when that many things were hitting him.   Now, if I were an Enchanter I'd be able to mesmerise extras while having a pet to do some tanking, and if I were a Fighter type I'd be able to take a lot more damage.  Priest types have issues in that they may not inflict sufficient damage to down the foe before they're out of energy.  A Wizard/Warlock likely would have much the same issues my Scout did - lots of offense, but not enough defense.   So yes, class does make a difference when soloing instanced content.

You think CoX has it right? pffft. I love that game, but talk about dull, oh-so-generic missions.  That is really the achilles heel of the franchise, IMHO. CoX is a blast for a month, then I dread seeing the same type of base encounters, same tile set and same map layout.  It's easy for them to scale the shit out the missions, because there is no too much to scale.....and not loot to worry about.

I think that this is an issue one encounters with any working automatic instancing system.  A developer might have successfully instructed a computer to randomly generate content that properly challenges the player, but they can't expect missions to stand apart in the way they would hand crafted content.  Computers just don't have any creativity.  You can throw more and more content on them to randomize, but sooner or later the players are going to realize they're getting a generic blend of all the content in the engine and not a truly original experience.  Cryptic has partially resolved the issue by throwing in special content that radically changes the interior appearance of some instanced missions, but few are the players that can be perpetually deceived by different coats of paint on the same thing.  In the end, you either still like the gameplay mechanic or you're bored of it.  Time to take a break or try to discover another way to play the game you might have missed.

[Falconeer]

They might have actually screwed up some of the betrayal missions, because I was running into situations where there was a room full of encounters that would be an even fight, and they assisted if I attacked one.  I was able to do some of them quite well and it was just a good challenge, but in the cases where there was alot of assisting going on and not enough room to avoid that, it was a futile effort. 

Alright, I believe you. Maybe in one of the million publishes they screwed up something more, it's actually more than possible.
Just to be sure, you do know that mobs (if NOT linked) add whenever they are social and you pull one of their neighbours with weapon or arts BUT don't notice you and don't join the fray when you bodypull them just entering their aggrorange for a sec, right?
I am sure you know this already, but I've seen more than a veteran ignoring this little mechanic so I gave it a shot.
No need to say there's a HUGE difference if you are able to pull single mobs (or single groups) in tight spaces instead of always getting the whole party when you were inviting just one.

[geldonyetich]

I've found body pulls to be kinda iffy, to the point where sometimes I wonder if they're a myth even though other times they seem to work.  It seems that social mobs sometimes notice me getting their buddy's attention, even if I'm outside of their aggro range.

For my Scout, however, body pulls hurt as much as helped.  The reason being that a major chunk of my damage came from the surprise stealth attack.  If I'm poking my nose into a room unstealthed in order to try to separate groups, and I succeed in just snagging a single encounter, I'm already at a disadvantage because I don't get that sharp spike of stealth attack damage that would have brought me a quarter to a half way to defeating the encounter at the start.   I should qualify that by mentioning my betrayal happened before I had a power that would re-stealth me in mid fight, which I think was granted at 24.

[Bandit]

So you did infact complete the betrayal?

[geldonyetich]

Yes and no.  I had to abort those instanced betrayal missions I found to be incompletable due to excessive adding problems, but there's a random pool of betrayal missions that are assigned to me from the NPC, so I managed to get my betrayal done by milking the ones I could do through aborting the ones I knew I couldn't and asking again. 

There were about three I couldn't do and two I could.  One of those two because I just had to kill a single NPC, something I could manage to do before his buddies finished me off, after I had snuck past all the rest.  The other one because the groups were far enough apart as to avoid aggroing more than one.  It was tough, but I could take about 2 or 3 white con even framed at a time and that's about the size of encounters they came in, so it was completable as long as I kept it down to one encounter at a time.

Also, only one of the five betrayal options the NPC gives actually took place in instanced areas, so one could potentially complete their betrayal without doing one instanced mission.

[Soln]

when did you betray?  only curious because I did mine months ago before the big changes and it was semi-Ok and was considering doing it again for a healbot.

[geldonyetich]

I betrayed about 3 months ago.  I'm pretty sure they haven't radically changed the betrayal system since then.  First you do a short line of quests that render you an exile, then you do a quite few out of a choice of five kinds of quests whose main purpose is to get your faction sufficiently up with the side you want to go on, then you do a short line of quests that make you an official member of the new city.

I hear Fae can't betray, yet.

[Falconeer]

Let me show off:









.


And that looks WAY better in motion. Screenshots never did much justice to EQ2.
How can people keep saying this game visuals and models are awful is beyond me...

.

[Murgos]

The animations and details were always excellent.  The bodies of the original races were plaqstic and dumpy and completely uninspired.  The variety of clothing TWO years after launch is still disappointing.  Leonardo came up with ratio's for the perfectly pleasing human form nearly half a millenia ago, it would have been nice if they were aware of that.

[Falconeer]

Leonardo came up with ratio's for the perfectly pleasing human form nearly half a millenia ago, it would have been nice if they were aware of that.

:)

Still, this not just an EQ2 issue I guess :) But I see the point.

[jpark]

The screens of the avatar above do look good - the winged fearie.

Probably the only good model in the entire EQ2 line-up.

But like EQ, these guys would rather add "new" content than adjust existing content.  I was told they did not have the resources to adjust the existing models and were aware that there was discontent - of course they appear to have the dev resources for a new avatar...

When I asked Mr. Hartsman about changes to existing models - this is an excerpt from his email:

We could poll people until we were blue in the face, but even if 99% of everyone despised them, that really doesn't change the fact that I'm unlikely to succeed at making a case for being given 20 artists for another few years to remake 16x2 (US) + 10x2 (Asia) race-gender pairs from scratch.

With modelling and texturing, after adding 500 anims plus a few thousand wearable fittings, plus 3 LODs for every wearable, per race-gender (52 in total), that's a pretty huge chunk of work that you tend to only get one try on.

- Scott

If it's a $$ issue, I would even be willing to pay for an "expansion" that offered changes to existing racial avatars (e.g. EQ styled, just more polygons - I would even settle for that) and armor variety.  I would pay for that.

[Kitsune]

If it's a $$ issue, I would even be willing to pay for an "expansion" that offered changes to existing racial avatars (e.g. EQ styled, just more polygons - I would even settle for that) and armor variety.  I would pay for that.

Then tell it to Hartsman.  They could make EverQuest 2: The Legend of the Hearth, an expansion with new homes, new furnishings, one new quest, and oh yes, new models for the races.  19.95, please.  I actually like most of the SOGA avatars' faces, I just dislike the fact that they're stick-figures with spindly limbs.  If they would un-supermodel the models by feeding them a sandwich or two, I think it'd be pretty great.

[Soln]

I resubbed, had a ball over the weekend.  What changed for me is that a master1 spell I had on the (new for me) offline brokers sold finally for 75gp.  I geared up and progression took off.  Finally finished AQ2 quest in SH :)  nearly 2 years later lol

[Sky]

The animations and details were always excellent.  The bodies of the original races were plaqstic and dumpy and completely uninspired.  The variety of clothing TWO years after launch is still disappointing.  Leonardo came up with ratio's for the perfectly pleasing human form nearly half a millenia ago, it would have been nice if they were aware of that.

Yep. When I originally bought EQ2, I wanted to make my EQ1 necromancer, a Dark Elf. Apparently all dark elfs and most other elves have come out of the closet and are having a gay pride parade. And the humans and barbarians are all dumpy looking. And the Iksar shipped with one skin color. The EQ player models were and are terrible.

[Soln]

Falconeer, what's your rig?  What are you using for graphics to get that quality?

[Arrrgh]

Why is the new model so much less fugly than the old ones?

New artists? Old artists had more time? Old artists woke up and smelled the mannequins with play doh hair?

[Falconeer]

Falconeer, what's your rig?  What are you using for graphics to get that quality?

The screenshots of the violet winged fae is from my laptop, Dell Inspiron 9400 dual core with a nVidia 7900gs go videocard. These 2 screenshots are taken in 1440x900.
The one with the white wings is from my desktop, an year old AMD cpu with a robust 7800 gtx 512 video card. Both have 2 gigs RAM. These two are 1280x960.

The game runs more than fine now, after the last patch that definitely improved the framerate for me (more noticeable if you are using the default UI). With more than fine I mean an average 30 fps everywhere, often more than that and with slowdowns kicking in only during the most fierce party fights. When I fight in a party I just turn off spell effects as I never liked those and they are a big hit for performance. Plus they are a mess.. I can't see anything with al those sparkles and smokes.

Now the tricky part: Settings.

First of all, I set it on the preset "high quality", then I only change the texture quality, shifting both character and terrain on max. All the other settings are default but (and this is a great but) from what I heard months ago in the official board, the presets are not static, I mean, they adjust and scale themself based on the computer they are running on. Meaning (again, if I get it the right way) that my "high setting preset" isn't actual the same "high setting" you could get on a different computer. Not sure if this is true or not, but I wanted to add this as I saw lot of confusions about people trying to replicate someone else's setting and not getting the same quality.
Oh, under "Environment" I usually turn off the blooms as I really don't like it, but honestly I can't remember if I turned it off recently. It's probably on on the laptop and off on the desktop, anyway it shows a lot in certain zones and close to nil in some others.

Anyway, the final touches are of course AntiAliasing 4x and Anisotropic Filter 16x. Now, not sure if you know this, but theoretically EQ2 doesn't support AA, so no matter if you turn it on or off in your videocard settings, EQ2 will continue to ignore it.

To actually have AA working in EQ2 you just have to add a line in the eq2.ini file in the main EQ2 directory.

The line is:

r_aa_blit 1

Add this to eq2.ini (create it if there's no eq2.ini in your main directory) and AA will finally work.
Sorry if you already knew all this stuff, I just thought it could be useful anyway.

[Soln]

didn't know any of it :)  thank ye

[Arrrgh]

Since no one replied to my artist query I'm wondering if no one knows. I see lots of obsessive following of dev projects here, but no one ever mentions the artists. Since there's far more difference in the quality of the art (utter crap to great) than the quality of most of the MMOs (utter crap to decent) it would be nice to see what the artists I've liked in the past are currently working on.

[Nija]

They messed with people soloing heroic mobs? Does anyone play a bard class, or know someone who does? I solo'd my Dirge from ~33 to 45 exclusively kiting ^^ and ^^^ heroics.

edit: if i can't solo i doubt i'll resub anytime soon. it's too hard to find consistent groups on the pvp server.

[shiznitz]

SOE boosted solo exp quite a bit some months ago to the point that even if you can solo heroics, the relative exp gain compared to soloing greens is crappy. I can churn through low greens at 3 per minute if they are densely packed enough and each kill is about .3%. Add in the plentiful quest exp available while soloing and levelling alone is quite easy. My zerk is level 62 in mostly player-made gear.

EoF solo quests also seem to have quite generous cash rewards. Most of the Lesser Faydark quests (50-60 zone) pay 9-15g. One of my guildies (high 59 monk when he started, 61 monk now) did over 30 quests in LFay over several nights. Add in the proceeds from selling the loot and quest rewards and he earned almost 7 plat. That buys a full suit of the player-made T7 armor and all the Adept1 spells he will need up to 70.

[geldonyetich]

If you're kiting then all bets are off if you can or cannot solo a ^^^ mob.  Personally, I've never had that much luck with kiting in EQ2 because they've anti-kiting code that does cute little things like render a kited mob suddenly worth no xp.

[Sky]

EoF solo quests also seem to have quite generous cash rewards

Any bets that the rewards are nerfed before I get around to playing EQ2 again in a few months? It's pretty much SOE policy to launch an expansion with phat lewtz and nerf it a few months later.

[Falconeer]

I played EQ2 fof 2 years and it is still my favourite MMORPG after EQ1 and UO.
But I hated it on and off in these last 2 years too.
Most of the time I wasn't sure about the reasons, only had to take breaks before the boredom could become lethal, and I usually came back after a couple of weeks.
Now, after exactly 24 months from launch, after 24 staright months of subscription and lots of characters in the higher level range, I understood what I always hated about EQ2 combat and couldn't put into words:

The combat animation is not synched with the damage you deal.
Your character basically plays a combat animation that takes too much to complete, meaning that if you cast a spell meanwhile or if you are hasted somehow, you don't get the "right" feeling of it. It happens all the time with my berserker... I hit like 10 times in 2 seconds, but what I see is a lot of orange numbers and just a couple of swings. What happened to the remaining 8 hits? The animation is slower than your actual damage so there's no way for you to actually feel all those 10 hits.

That is simply not right. IT doesn't feel right. And yes, took me 2 years to understand that it was an issue about synchronization of the animation with what actually happens damage-wise.
I am not sure, but I think none of the other big enough MMOs have similar issues.

Why I put this here? Don't know.... it's just not worth a new topic.
But this is my bottom line: animations, visuals, gameplay, the world.. it's all great I love EQ2. Only combat... just doesn't feel right to me.
Darn.. 24 months...