Useless Conversation

[Merusk]

Thanks all.. at the moment I'm taking the "fucking ignore it" route while I think on weather to contact an attorney or a mental professional.  She's a nice person she just has horrible lying, sneaking and covering-up habits from her mother with regards to spending that's spread into flat out lying and sneaking about. I just don't think I can swallow being the only one concerned about it anymore.

[MuffinMan]

She's a nice person she just has horrible lying, sneaking and covering-up habits from her mother with regards to spending that's spread into flat out lying and sneaking about.

You just described my ex-wife to a T. You can tell how that turned out for me.

[Yegolev]

Garfield without Garfield always helps.

[Strazos]

So do you think she's doing nefarious things with the money, or just engaging in secret shopping?

[Yegolev]

Nefarious?  You mean like DSW?

[Strazos]

No, that would be the latter.

[Cyrrex]

My wife has a similar issue, but probably to a less serious degree.  Sort of a shopoholic, and has caused me to go into the occasional fit of rage.  I hate to generalize, but sometimes it just seems like a lot of women have some sort of strange, gluttonous relationship with money and/or possessions.  I mean, I'll go out and buy the odd piece of electronics (or whatever) for myself, but she will constantly buy a bunch of useless or excessive bullshit, much of which never gets used, and sometimes it seems non-stop.  She doesn't do it all the time, thankfully, but she'll go into a period where she just goes nuts.  And she'll try to hide it, which I never do.  The amount of clothing she buys for the kids is staggering (as in abnormal).  The only reason I think I can manage to put up with it is because she also seems to be sort of addicted to selling some of the shit online.  Still, what the fuck?

[Ironwood]

Thanks all.. at the moment I'm taking the "fucking ignore it" route while I think on weather to contact an attorney or a mental professional.  She's a nice person she just has horrible lying, sneaking and covering-up habits from her mother with regards to spending that's spread into flat out lying and sneaking about. I just don't think I can swallow being the only one concerned about it anymore.

Couple of things :

1 - She's not going to change unless the situation changes. Whatever got her into this behaviour, the kids, the life, the marriage, other factors, is kinda irrelevant if she thinks that it's at all possible to get away with it without changing.
2 - I cannot imagine Alimony being as 'accessible' as your cash is now.  Further, it has other factors and other people reviewing it.  It's also 'on the books' and easy to see where it's going.  My understanding is that it also pretty much has to be 'for the kids' and my brother when he dumped his lying cheating spending bitch was able to use the procedures to make sure she HAD to stop or damage the kids.  Most mothers won't and if they do, you can swiftly remove them from the equation.
3 - I agree that it doesn't sound like she needs 'help'.  But that's not going to happen while you're still there and it's not going to take if she hasn't admitted a problem.  We're back to GET OUT and change the dynamic here.  Go for a trial seperation or something.  Just leave the house for a couple of weeks.
4 - Ultimately, your happiness is a large factor in making any marriage work.  Wife and I have been through so much unhappiness and managed to make it out the other end because ultimately we care about each other a lot but also know when we have to give and take for the other person.  It sounds like you're miserable, confused, hurt and trapped.  If your significant other is 'taking advantage' of that, even subconsciously, is this really the person you want to spend your life with ?

So, in conclusion, Get Out.  Life is way to short.

Also, I think you chaps talking prenups and whatnot have to realise that sometimes it is YOU that makes wrong decisions because you're attracted to the wrong types and maybe you need to think REALLY REALLY HARD before actually asking someone to marry you.  Heh.  Ask me sometime about my mate who went seven years without sex because he picked someone out the loony bin and is about to make the exact same mistake because the boy gets hard for nutjobs.  I look forward to the 3rd divorce party.  They're always fun(!)

[Yegolev]

I always thought that people would naturally put a lot of thought into a serious commitment but I find that I am in the minority.

That said, they are always crazier than they first seem.

[ghost]

My wife is actually pretty damned cool and well grounded.  Of course her salary way outpaces mine, so I guess that maybe I'm the nutty, spendy one.   

I hate to say this, but Sand is probably right-  it sounds like an addiction issue.  So if you actually like your wife maybe you talk about counseling.  If not, go with the option that Ironwood presents. 

[HaemishM]

Get Out.  Trying to change someone who's doing this shit is about as much use as a cock-flavoured lollypop.

GET OUT.

The dour Scot (redundant, AMIRITE) is correct. I am of the firm belief that people do not change consciously. EVER. They can TRY to change, they can promise they will change, but hardwired behavior, people's first instinct to do shit they want to do instead of what they SHOULD be doing, it doesn't fucking change. They will be ok for a little while, but eventually the shit comes back again, they get lax about policing themselves or just get tired of ignoring the impulses and they do it again. It isn't that they HATE you or don't love you enough or whatever, it's that they cannot fucking help themselves. You either better get used to her doing the shit she's doing over and over again and if you determine that you really don't want to live your life with that shit, GET THE FUCK OUT NOW. Save yourself the misery.

Hell, if she's essentially stealing money from you (really from the both of you since your money is hers and vice versa), or lying about spending money and it's been a repeated cycle of outright, conscious deceptions, you'll be lucky if that's ALL she's lying to you about. Nasty shit hides in lies.

Either suck it up and get used to being lied to, or get the fuck out.

[Morat20]

My wife has a similar issue, but probably to a less serious degree.  Sort of a shopoholic, and has caused me to go into the occasional fit of rage.  I hate to generalize, but sometimes it just seems like a lot of women have some sort of strange, gluttonous relationship with money and/or possessions.  I mean, I'll go out and buy the odd piece of electronics (or whatever) for myself, but she will constantly buy a bunch of useless or excessive bullshit, much of which never gets used, and sometimes it seems non-stop.  She doesn't do it all the time, thankfully, but she'll go into a period where she just goes nuts.  And she'll try to hide it, which I never do.  The amount of clothing she buys for the kids is staggering (as in abnormal).  The only reason I think I can manage to put up with it is because she also seems to be sort of addicted to selling some of the shit online.  Still, what the fuck?

My wife and I have a similar problem, although over the years we've managed to sort it out to a manageable degree. The real problem is she simply doesn't keep a running tally of what she spends, and gets pissed if there's a "I want to buy X" and I say "there's no money".

Apparently I always say this. Mostly because there's never any goddamn money because we've goddamn spent it all. In any case, trying to tell her when we're getting low ALSO doesn't work. Apparently what she wants is me to, when I realize there's no money, travel back in time to earlier in the month when she was making the purchases she would (now) prioritize out and stop her. Since I can't time-travel, this has led to problems.

Honestly, we solved it by giving her an allowance. (IE: Capped credit card at a limit I can pay off monthly. Pay it on the last day of the month). She stil goes over and starts taking from the checking account, but I can generally jump right on that and make sure it's necessary. We fight a lot less, although sometimes she gets pissy about effectively having an allowance in her thirties.

But we rarely actually fight over it and I am no longer developing an ulcer, and our electricty doesn't get turned off because she forgot to pay the bill or was playing timing games with the checks or whatever.

We did come pretty close to divorce a few times -- money is the number one stressor in relationships -- but it's worked out. She, however, never actually lied about it. That's desperation behavior. Actually, closer to addiction behavior really. You know it's wrong, but you can't stop, so you lie and cover and hide.

[Lantyssa]

Y'all are almost making me glad I can't get married.

[Morat20]

Y'all are almost making me glad I can't get married.

It's...tough, in a lot of ways. Mostly because, well, everyone's an adult. I've met some adults who are quite happy to let someone else make all the decisions about things, but that's not too common.

And in reality, someone generally has to make the decisions and no one wants to constantly have to double-check and everyone's used to making their own calls and adjusting is really, really, hard. And what works is different for everyone. Some people toss all the money together and work out each decision together, some people delegate it to one spouse or another, some people use a complex system of shared bills....

It's tough, especially if you lived on your own and got used to making all the decisions that matter without having to consult someone else. I can see why so many marriages end over money. Money's important. You need it to live. But it also represents freedom and independence, and you've got to compromise in a relationship on those things.

I can't buy whatever I want just because I think I have the cash. Neither can she. We're having to sacrifice that freedom to be responsible to no one but ourselves, and that can breed resentment.

[SnakeCharmer]

Merusk, didn't this woman cheat on you at some point?  Or am I thinking of someone else?

Step 1:  Hire the best, most ruthless divorce attorney you can find.  Now.  Don't think about it.  Do it now.
Step 2:  There is no step 2.  Go back to step 1.

[shiznitz]

Don't rathole assets and lie about it. you will end up in a world of pain.

Buy drugs then.  The bottom line is that if you accumulate re-saleable items for cash in small amounts over long periods of time, it is much harder for her lawyer to figure out where the money went.  For all they know, you spent $200 a month on fast food.

[Rasix]

You're like a bizzaro world fortune cookie.

[Morat20]

You can do all that, but it seems you run a giant risk of getting ass-raped even more down the line.

Get a really good lawyer, do it all above board, and you'll probably be a fucking lot happier ten years down the road than otherwise.

Then again, my one divorce was amiacable (as much as those things can be) and we divied up the property and debts ourselves, and hired a lawyer only to do the paperwork and file it. It was uncontested, no alimony or child support (no kids) and about as simple as divorce can get.

[Ingmar]

Sounds like a pretty shitty situation all the way around. IMO do whatever you think is the best long-term for the kid(s), since they're the ones with no control in the situation.

And don't do the asset hiding thing, that's about the dumbest idea I've ever heard. You'd certainly lose the high moral ground on the whole sneaking around and lying issue, too.

[Samwise]

She's a nice person she just has horrible lying, sneaking and covering-up habits

So, back when I started seeing my shrink, one of the first things she asked me was to describe my ex, and one of the first words I used was "nice".  Then she had me try to reconcile that with the long series of events that led to me seeking therapy.

I rapidly reached the conclusion that I am not necessarily as good a judge of character as I thought I was.  

[Murgos]

A moderately close friend of mine is asking me to put up his brother (who I met once for 20 minutes) for three nights at the last minute.

I'm going to say ok but I am not very happy about it.

[Nebu]

I'm going to say ok but I am not very happy about it.

I have a policy of not doing things I'm unhappy about.  I wear "unhappy" on my sleeve. 

Good luck to you.

[ghost]

Couldn't you be out of town or sick or something, Murgos?  There's always an out.

[HaemishM]

One other thing to remember about divorce. THERE IS NO WINNING A DIVORCE. Everybody involved fucking loses because a relationship is over. Don't go into a divorce thinking "I'm going to SHOW HER!" or thinking you will win any sort of contested long case whereby everything you do is right and she was wrong in everything she did. Life ain't like that. All divorces are a net loss. Come away from it with as few scars as you can manage and get the fuck on with your life.

[Arthur_Parker]

I mean, I'll go out and buy the odd piece of electronics (or whatever) for myself, but she will constantly buy a bunch of useless or excessive bullshit, much of which never gets used, and sometimes it seems non-stop.  She doesn't do it all the time, thankfully, but she'll go into a period where she just goes nuts. 

That's my wife, useless shit comes in the front door, gets moved to the garage and eventually ends up with me packing the car and taking it to the dump.  We still have a treadmill machine, I nearly died lifting it up the stairs at the last house.

[MuffinMan]

One other thing to remember about divorce. THERE IS NO WINNING A DIVORCE. Everybody involved fucking loses because a relationship is over. Don't go into a divorce thinking "I'm going to SHOW HER!" or thinking you will win any sort of contested long case whereby everything you do is right and she was wrong in everything she did. Life ain't like that. All divorces are a net loss. Come away from it with as few scars as you can manage and get the fuck on with your life.

I wish everyone had that view but if the other person does not they can easily walk all over you. At least that's how it was with my parents, my divorce was somewhat amicable except for the gobs of money that my ex-wife still owes me. Thinking of which, I'll probably be making a thread about that in the near future looking for advice.

[Ironwood]

She's a nice person she just has horrible lying, sneaking and covering-up habits

So, back when I started seeing my shrink, one of the first things she asked me was to describe my ex, and one of the first words I used was "nice".  Then she had me try to reconcile that with the long series of events that led to me seeking therapy.

I rapidly reached the conclusion that I am not necessarily as good a judge of character as I thought I was.  

It may surprise you to know that this information does not surprise me.

 

[Samwise]

It may not surprise you to know that I am completely unsurprised.

[Furiously]

It may not surprise you to know that I am completely unsurprised.

I'd be surprised if it surprised him that you were completely unsurprised.

[Ironwood]

I don't even think it's a judge of character thing :  You're just so damn nice.  Too damn nice.

[ghost]

I don't even think it's a judge of character thing :  You're just so damn nice.  Too damn nice.

Maybe if he threw in a "you're a cunt" here or there it would help him out a bit. 

[Merusk]

She's a nice person she just has horrible lying, sneaking and covering-up habits

So, back when I started seeing my shrink, one of the first things she asked me was to describe my ex, and one of the first words I used was "nice".  Then she had me try to reconcile that with the long series of events that led to me seeking therapy.

I rapidly reached the conclusion that I am not necessarily as good a judge of character as I thought I was.  

This isn't one of those. I had that relationship in my early 20's.  I'm still scarred from it and know what to look for now.  The wife is genuinely nice.. she's either an addict or completely stupid.  I can't truly decide which.  I know a lot of her issues stem from her incredibly overbearing father and her conciliatory mother who went so far as to let her stay home from school whenever she felt like it.   Yeah, they both had issues so it's no big surprise she does.. I'm just hurt that this is the 4th or 5th time I've found out about huge debits long after I should have known.  Hence my fed-up state.

I don't hate her. I simply pity her and that works against me.  My major weakness in relationships has always been a bit of white-knight syndrome.  Add that to an unwillingness to fail via my own sheer ego and it's just a mixture of madness.

She's not the brightest bulb but she's not a complete tool.  (If I had to guess I'd put her int at 105-110, tops)  It's maddening to someone with a higher IQ, particularly when she just doesn't learn and constantly makes the same mistakes. Over.  And Over.  And Over.  It's a train of bad decisions that I'm sick of riding but the WK and Ego thing won't let me stop.

Plus I'm worried about damaging the kids.  If it had been just me I'd have been out years ago.  I've got children to worry about and with the custody laws being as fucked as they are I just don't want to take the chance.  I should, but I worry more that they'd wind-up in her care more than anything else.  While I know she'd fuck-up enough for me to get full custody, what sort of damage would be done in that time frame?  The daughter's 13, this is big time stuff she could be fucked on for the rest of her life if the court made (and would) a stupid decision because the law favors the mother over the father.

Snake: No you've got me confused with someone else.  She's never cheated and probably isn't even capable.  Without going too much into it I'm the only guy she's ever been with and she's still hesitant around me.  I know a large part of her problem is latent homosexual/ bisexuality that she's repressing but refusing to see anyone about.  I've known for years but she only finally admitted it to me about 9 months ago.

That'd be why if it were cheating I could understand it and work with it.  I know what cheating is based on and can work with that.  I'm an open-minded guy and so long as things are in the open I can work in a lot of scenarios.  This isn't that and I wish it were because then I could deal with it.  No, this is money and healthcare, the one thing that can fuck her, me and the kids in one fell swoop.

[Paelos]

[Sand]

Plus I'm worried about damaging the kids.  If it had been just me I'd have been out years ago.  I've got children to worry about and with the custody laws being as fucked as they are I just don't want to take the chance.  I should, but I worry more that they'd wind-up in her care more than anything else.  While I know she'd fuck-up enough for me to get full custody, what sort of damage would be done in that time frame?  The daughter's 13, this is big time stuff she could be fucked on for the rest of ated and probably isn't even.

No, this is money and healthcare, the one thing that can fuck her, me and the kids in one fell swoop.

Then you know as a dad your kids are sponges and they are picking up on her bad habits and the the tension in the house whetherbyou ignore it or not. Get a counselor or get a divorce lawyer but get to acting.

[Minvaren]

I know a large part of her problem is latent homosexuality/bisexuality that she's repressing but refusing to see anyone about.  I've known for years but she only finally admitted it to me about 9 months ago.

Goddamn - flashback, and it's too early to start drinking.  o_O

With all due respect, I think at this point she needs the counselor and you need the attorney.  Then when you're done with the attorney, find a counselor for yourself.