Useless Conversation

[RhyssaFireheart]

Well yes, I do understand that places south which get measureable amounts of snow once in a blue moon (or apocolypse month) have no need for snow removal equipment.  I just find it funny that people have trouble driving in an inch of snow because it's not that much.  Yes, packed down it'll turn to ice and that's what will really screw with people's driving, but plain snow?

I know my reaction is based off years of living with major amounts of snow and ice every winter.  I still find it hard to understand the reaction.  Although, considering how people act up here during the first snowfall we get each year, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. 

[Sky]

About to mod my FJ because I've finally gotten tired of the stupid VSC crap throttling the engines when the tires slip in the snow. I want my slidey corners back, dammit. Maybe it makes sense for the newbs who can't drive properly in snow, but for a vet snow driver, it's straight-out dangerous to have the engine cut and lose steering in a slide (that you expect to complete in a standard fashion). I love driving in the snow, it's my main complaint about the FJ.

[Merusk]

I know my reaction is based off years of living with major amounts of snow and ice every winter.  I still find it hard to understand the reaction.  Although, considering how people act up here during the first snowfall we get each year, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. 

I grew up in the snow belt of Cleveland and learned to drive doing donuts in a parking lot that had 6" of snow after a light snowfall.  I had the same thought process as you until I went off the road, through the median and nearly head-on into traffic on the other side in 1" of snow 3 years ago simply because it wasn't plowed and salted.  That changes one's mind pretty quickly.

[Arthur_Parker]

I don't think there's any excuse for Heathrow, other airports keep open with heavy snow, roads I admit are different.

[Cheddar]

Well yes, I do understand that places south which get measureable amounts of snow once in a blue moon (or apocolypse month) have no need for snow removal equipment.  I just find it funny that people have trouble driving in an inch of snow because it's not that much.  Yes, packed down it'll turn to ice and that's what will really screw with people's driving, but plain snow?

I know my reaction is based off years of living with major amounts of snow and ice every winter.  I still find it hard to understand the reaction.  Although, considering how people act up here during the first snowfall we get each year, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. 

Here in Hampton Roads its 2 things.  1 - the other drivers here fucking suck.  SUCK.  2 - it turns into ice here really, really fast.  We had about 2 inches of pure ice this last go around in my neighborhood. 

[Cyrrex]

About to mod my FJ because I've finally gotten tired of the stupid VSC crap throttling the engines when the tires slip in the snow. I want my slidey corners back, dammit. Maybe it makes sense for the newbs who can't drive properly in snow, but for a vet snow driver, it's straight-out dangerous to have the engine cut and lose steering in a slide (that you expect to complete in a standard fashion). I love driving in the snow, it's my main complaint about the FJ.

I assume VSC is some form of traction control?  You can't just turn that shit off in an FJ?  That is beyond odd.

[Sky]

I have a 2008. I think they added the switch to the 2009. The fj board is a bunch of curmudgeons who don't want to show newbs how to do things "Hey, we posted the service manual page, what do you want, a walkthrough with pictures?" One guy did post some pics, probably enough to get it done properly, but I don't know why such a major thing isn't a dealer option install.

The mod I'm looking at is /supposed/ to allow a toggle switch, so I can turn it on for highway speeds (when it's actually useful, in theory). Problem is, at least on of the mods needs a restart to reapply the VSC. And I've got to go dicking around inside my truck for something that's standard on the next model year

I've kind of gotten used to not sliding around corners, which hampers my winter driving but can be adjusted to (though sliding through corners is still safer and better if you know what you're about). The thing that's almost gotten me in several accidents is when it cuts engine power on take-off, like I'm crossing a busy intersection with just a little snow (not enough for 4WD) and it feels the wheels slip a little and cuts power to the engine and applies ABS. In the middle of the intersection.

I'll grant power steering and brakes, my first car didn't have them. But I'm glad I learned on it. But the nanny features going into cars nowadays are going beyond stupid into dangerous. Shitty drivers will always be shitty drivers, making things dangerous for good drivers makes me 

[bhodi]

The problem is that the majority of people who think they are good drivers, aren't.

It's easy to drive in snow, assuming you have enough traction to both make it up hills and come to a stop at the bottom of them.

The solution is simple. Slow down. You shouldn't be going fast enough to slide, and viewing height does correlate with either stability or traction. I'm looking at you, SUVs.

[Sky]

You shouldn't be going fast enough to slide

Ok, you can stop talking about driving in the snow now. Sliding around corners in a RWD vehicle (when you know what you're doing, and I do, I was taught by a NASCAR driver who used to commute to Oswego all winter) is the safest, most controlled way in the snow. Even when I had a FWD, I'd use the handbrake to slide because there was so much more control and less chance of snowplowing into the curb.

I'm not saying it's how everyone should drive. Far from it. But it's how I've driven for years, totally safe. Until the nanny features removed that ability, I've had more close calls since buying the FJ than even with my shitty RWD ford pickup that was horrible in the snow. I'm quite aware of what is a safe speed to drive in the winter. Until I had the FJ, I'd spend time refreshing my skills in empty parking lots every year, throwing the vehicle into spins and recovering, practicing corners, stops, 180s, 90s, etc. Done it with muscle cars, sedans, wagons, trucks, compacts and SUVs (my beloved cherokee).

[Malakili]

You shouldn't be going fast enough to slide

Ok, you can stop talking about driving in the snow now.

No, seriously, just slow down.  That would solve just about every single snow related car accident I have ever seen. There are a few hill related cases where you're just fucked no matter what, but just slow down.  Great, you're apparently a professional driver or something, but drive slow in the snow.

[Yegolev]

I'd get a wood stove if not for the logistical issues.  Instead it's LP.

[ghost]

I'd get a wood stove if not for the logistical issues.  Instead it's LP.

We had a wood stove when I was a kid that my dad rigged up to run through our heating ducts.  It was a holy nightmare having to trudge down in the wee hours of the morning to load it up if it got low.  Still, there was a nostalgic feeling to it that was nice and the warmth from it was awesome. 

[Sky]

It was a holy nightmare having to trudge down in the wee hours of the morning to load it up if it got low.  

Builds character!

[Polysorbate80]

If I'm reading Sky right, he's not talking about speeding in slick road conditions, he's talking about using the accelerator to control slippage.  That's something altogether different, and hard to teach people who aren't used to driving in snow, because it's counterintuitive.  In the 20 years we've been married, I've never been able to get my wife to learn to do it, no matter how many times she gets stuck while I don't.

[Sky]

Yes, always drive to the weather conditions. I don't speed on dry pavement :p But that doesn't mean you have to go 20mph in snow, either. With any winter precip, always need to do an accel/brake test as conditions change. Straight up snow there's little reason to slow down at all except for corners.

But specifically I'm talking about two issues right now: cornering and acceleration. The VSC on the FJ won't let me break the back end loose to slide it at a corner, which is optimal vs a normal turn: slide the back end slightly so you're just past being in line with the road you're turning into, keep the front wheels pointed in the direction you want to go.

The issue the VSC has with acceleration is that if the wheels slip at all (like pulling away from a stop sign), it cuts the acceleration and applies ABS. This is really, really dangerous if you're pulling out at a stop sign, even if it's not busy. Your normal sense of spatial awareness is gone, the idea that "ok, I can safely pull out in front of the oncoming car at a normal speed" no longer applies, even at a safe speed, you begin to pull out and the gas pedal is no longer working because it's applying ABS against it.

It's a feature that's mostly for loss of traction at speed that had unintended consequences, which is why the 09+ models come with the switch stock.

[ghost]

It was a holy nightmare having to trudge down in the wee hours of the morning to load it up if it got low.  

Builds character!

It didn't work.   

[Oban]

Shouldn't you just get an audi quattro or acura rl if this is an issue for you?

[bhodi]

I don't really think we can go anywhere with this if you think deliberately breaking the back end loose to slide into a corner in already hazardous conditions on a public roadway is "optimal".

[Cyrrex]

I don't really think we can go anywhere with this if you think deliberately breaking the back end loose to slide into a corner in already hazardous conditions on a public roadway is "optimal".

I think I sorta know what he's suggesting.  I have a FWD car (that is in no way geared for snow), and when it's slick I keep my hand near the E brake.  Reason is, that if my front end starts to lose control, the best way to correct it and avoid an issue is to give a yank on the E brake send the back end around.  Gets you back on track quicker than pretty much anything.

Of course, this is only if I've already begun to slide...as a defensive measure.  I don't go into a turn planning to do that, except occasionally for fun.

[bhodi]

I totally get what Sky is saying. To be honest, I turn off traction control too. I grew up in the snow. I enjoy a little slippage. But I also don't fuck around when I'm going out to get milk or whatever and there are people around. Friction conditions can change in an instant and what was stopping distance 30 feet ago can be half, or double in the next 30 feet. A small change in snow condition can turn a carefully planned slide into a spin or the curb. The safest way to take it is to slow down.

People who think they have the situation under control are what cause accidents, especially people who feel they know what they are doing when in fact the conditions silently changed and they discover it when miscalculate and try to brake. To wit, I'm demonstrating how silly it sounds to explain how you need to drive in the snow like a race driver going for the gold, and how you're so much safer to everyone else on the road while doing it.

[Sky]

you need to drive in the snow like a race driver going for the gold

[Salamok]

I don't know shit about driving in the snow, can we segway into driving in ultra heavy fog conditions or something?

[IainC]

I don't know shit about driving in the snow, can we segway into driving in ultra heavy fog conditions or something?

Segways go like 5 miles per hour. As long as you stay away from cliffs I don't think there'd be a problem in any density of fog.

Or did you mean 'segue'?

[rattran]

I don't think Segway's even have traction control.

[Selby]

I enjoy driving my 38 year old RWD car in the snow and ice.  It's all about having control of the car's functions and being able to use them.  It is quite annoying when the computer decides it's going to hold you back because a sensor says so (and even more annoying when said sensor fails after a few years and holds you back permanently or intermittently).  I don't like driving my truck in the snow or ice though, it's too nerve wracking.  But I've done it and never had an issue.

[Ironwood]

Month/Day/Year.

Seriously, that's just fucking stupid.

[Merusk]

You'll get us to convert to the metric system first, you liberal pantywaist tea drinker.

[RhyssaFireheart]

Month/Day/Year.

Seriously, that's just fucking stupid.

That whole day/month/year thing is just confusing, too.  IMO, year/month/day makes the most sense.

[Oban]

12JAN11

[Nebu]

Month/Day/Year.

Seriously, that's just fucking stupid.

WTF is a stone?  I mean... a stone?  Really?



Don't take my Month-day-year from me!  I'll use the metric system, I promise. 

[NowhereMan]

People from the UK have no right to mock Americans for not adopting the metric system until we finally get rid of fucking miles and bring in Km. Also I think we should start driving on the right and I plan to make Esperanto the national language

of course none of that excuses month/day/year

[Yegolev]

If we could just agree on one, that would be a start.  Voting for y/m/d myself.

Also, think of the money to be made in refitting old programs.  It would be another Y2K boom.

[Ironwood]

I already drive on the right.

Oh, you mean Legally.

[IainC]

WTF is a stone?  I mean... a stone?  Really?

4032 Scruples.

Also mm/dd/yy is dumb.

[Nebu]

Also mm/dd/yy is dumb.

Why the hate?  I've been documenting lab notebooks and charts like this as long as I can remember.  Is it a programming or military thing?