Useless Conversation

[WayAbvPar]

The real estate market is SERIOUSLY overpriced just about everywhere, largely because all those suckers who had to get foreclosed on in the crash had their houses bought up for pennies on the dollar by some asshole with enough money to wait out the market, or who turned it into a rental for 1.5X what it should be renting for in its location.

You shut your whore mouth! The latest Zillow price on my house is only 7k less than I bought it for in 2006. I am almost not underwater any more! Go housing market 

[Rasix]

Building a house is one of the more miserable experiences you'll ever have. I do not recommend it. Death by billion decisions. And if that doesn't kill you, the fact that there's no way in hell you'll stay under budget, will.

[KallDrexx]

The real estate market is SERIOUSLY overpriced just about everywhere, largely because all those suckers who had to get foreclosed on in the crash had their houses bought up for pennies on the dollar by some asshole with enough money to wait out the market, or who turned it into a rental for 1.5X what it should be renting for in its location.

It's insane how this works.  We bought a second house and decided to rent out our previous house.  Our mortgage (including taxes and everything) is just under $800, we rented it out last year for $1500 a month.  That tenant left and our current tenant is paying $1600  a month and the number of replies we got (and how quickly) means that I'm sure we can up it to $1700 when we have a new tenant come in.  My wife has talked about wondering if we'd get $100k cash profit if we sold it based on sales going on around us but the profit we are making from rent (plus them paying the house off for us) makes it really hard for me to want to sell it.

[Furiously]

Sky. I had an epiphany. You should propose your library sets up a 3D printer.  You will of course have to test it all the time with figures to paint.

[Endie]

In Scotland, within commuting distance of Edinburgh, the market is such that it is well worth extending.  I have almost 3/4 an acre of garden behind ten foot stone walls, but only a small two-bedroom cottage, so in September I'm adding a second storey to it.  Dad and I had planned to do the build ourselves, kit- rather than stick-built, but a local firm has offered to supply and erect the second storey and make it wind- and water-tight for about 30k dollars (I converted everything in this post to dollars since I know my audience  ) and that was a no-brainer.  We'll remove the roof and build up the wall-plate then they'll erect the frame and make it weatherproof.  I'll probably hire a roofer for the tiles, but Dad and I are partway through making the new windows already, and plumbing and wiring will be a dawdle in a new construction.  Plasterboard (drywall?), second-fit joinery and flooring and at least some of it will be inhabited by Christmas.

The result is that we'll probably spend 55k dollars and turn a 400k house into a 600k house.  Well worth it.

September, by the way, is a dumb time of the year in Scotland to have the roof off your house: there's a decent chance of heavy rain or strong wind.  But my existing roof is of century-old pantile construction and is used as a nesting site for probably ten breeding pairs of house sparrows.  I know that I could not bring myself to execute nests full of unfledged sparrows, so September it was.

[Endie]

Building a house is one of the more miserable experiences you'll ever have. I do not recommend it. Death by billion decisions. And if that doesn't kill you, the fact that there's no way in hell you'll stay under budget, will.

Counterpoint: I've done it twice with my Dad and we enjoyed it (barring the odd miserable day here and there when it pours or you realise you need to do a hundred-mile roundtrip for a spare part for a nail gun).

[Bunk]

The real estate market is SERIOUSLY overpriced just about everywhere, largely because all those suckers who had to get foreclosed on in the crash had their houses bought up for pennies on the dollar by some asshole with enough money to wait out the market, or who turned it into a rental for 1.5X what it should be renting for in its location.

You shut your whore mouth! The latest Zillow price on my house is only 7k less than I bought it for in 2006. I am almost not underwater any more! Go housing market 

Don't trust Zillow, they are the devil.

I had a condo once. Five years later I sold it and walked away with under $2k in my pocket.
I am single, make a decent low end manager/supervisor sort of wage, and have no significant expenses. I'm still renting an apartment, because without $60k saved for a downpayment there are few alternatives.

I just looked at the MLS, see what detached homes near my area are going for. It's a nice area, most are in the 3-4 BR, 2000 - 2400 sq foot range. Average price? About $1.4 Million.

[HaemishM]

In a very many markets in the US, the real estate market is almost entirely divorced from reality.

[ezrast]

I have yet to work in a cubicle.
It sounds nice.

It was very nice compared to open offices which should tell you how fucking horrible open office spaces are cause back when it was cubicles we all complained how bad they were compared to offices.

For the record, I wasn't being sarcastic. It's just that the concept of having an actual enclosed working space with a door (that isn't my own home) seems such a distant pipe dream that it wouldn't occur to me to set my sights there, rather than on cubicles. I'm watching the guy with the desk next to mine shout at his dog as I type this. It's really making it difficult to focus on my slacking.

[Rasix]

If I close the door, it's almost like the other people don't exist.  It's glorious.

I haven't been in a cube since I interned at Intel. The building I'm in now has a bunch of offices circling a central lab area.  Think the mole people from a data center, but thankfully completely outside of the lab and thus not having to hear the whirring of machines all fucking day long. 

[Sky]

I'm not sure how you're appraising that they're overpriced. If it's an area that's saturated with no more places to build AND people want to live there? Yeah, of course prices are going to go up.

It's oddly saturated. We've got a lot of blight, so it's that the good neighborhoods are shrinking. I could go buy 4 houses tomorrow and not break our budget. But who wants to live in a slum? Mostly welfare refugees from NYC who learned how low the cost of living is here. Unfortunately, it's low because there's no money and that's not getting better due to the aforementioned influx of ex-cons and their families. But our families are here and we like our jobs, soo...

Honestly, I have a home and if it weren't for the fiancee, I'd probably retire in 4 years and just live off pension and odd jobs. It's not a dream house, but retiring at 50 without debt and a nice little egg in the bank is. Also, for a few years I'll make more by retiring than I would working (because the 1st 40k of pension isn't taxed).

But...gotta make the old lady happy. Also why it's tempting for her to get her own place...I could technically still retire early and she could work to pay hers off >:)

[Mandella]

When we got married about twelve years ago we decided to move into my wife's smallish house instead of my larger one because her house was more suitable for expanding. Since then we've near quadrupled the square-footage with addons, most of which I've built myself.

Things learned during the process -- if you are doing it yourself you better love construction work as a hobby, or you'll be hating life. Fortunately I enjoy building real buildings almost as much as I enjoy putting things together in something like minecraft, so things are good there. Unfortunately things can take a bit longer than clicking on blocks on a computer screen, so you better have a patient significant other, unless of course your SO also likes building in which case good luck, that might be better.

And as for hiring out work, the obvious is true -- though you don't always get what you pay for, I've never had any job done like I wanted that I didn't pay market price for. If you are "getting a deal" you are getting crappy work done, so keep that in mind. I had some "cheap" framing done here that was supposed to speed up my part of the process, but I ended up spending more time correcting the crew's work than if I had just done it myself. On the other hand, the really professional roofer I hired came out and did in one morning what it would have taken me a month to finish, and I still think what a great looking job he did every time I look at it.

Don't be afraid to check references. Ask around, find out any horror stories. That framer above? I didn't check up on his reputation until afterword, and I had more than one handyman laugh and tell me, "Him? Oh yeah, he's great! I've made a lot of money fixing up his work." On the other hand that good roofer I'm still recommending to anyone who needs that sort of work done.

So in short, be prepared to pay to get a good job done, but do your homework first, and then check the work daily or more. No, don't hover, but make it clear that you want what you are paying for and are prepared to require do-overs until it's right. The good people actually do take pride in their work, and want you to provide good recommendations for them later.

Of course, all this depends pretty heavily on region, I suppose. Down here (American rural southeast) most construction is family owned and operated, not a lot of mob connections, and reputation actually matters. Both labor and materials (and land, for that matter) are relatively inexpensive, so you don't have to take out a third mortgage just to expand the bathroom (or the kitchen, for that matter).

[Yegolev]

It does depend on region.  I live in a band which is close enough to the ATL that anyone merely competent is doing high-end work for rich people, and I can only find people who do just enough hammer-and-nail to buy their next meth hit or 24-pack of Milwaukee's Best.

[Chimpy]

September, by the way, is a dumb time of the year in Scotland to have the roof off your house: there's a decent chance of heavy rain or strong wind.

Isn't there a decent chance of heavy rain/high winds pretty much 365 days a year in Scotland? 

As for home improvement things, got the upper roof (tri level house so 2 roofs) torn off and the felt down today, thankfully it only had 2 layers on it. Means I only need the one $500 dumpster and not a second. Shingles get delivered in the morning, hopefully the rain holds off so we can get the lower (larger) roof torn off and felted.

[Yegolev]

I was in Scotland for 11 days in September and it only rained on me for two of them.

[Merusk]

I'm not sure how you're appraising that they're overpriced. If it's an area that's saturated with no more places to build AND people want to live there? Yeah, of course prices are going to go up.

It's oddly saturated. We've got a lot of blight, so it's that the good neighborhoods are shrinking. I could go buy 4 houses tomorrow and not break our budget. But who wants to live in a slum? Mostly welfare refugees from NYC who learned how low the cost of living is here. Unfortunately, it's low because there's no money and that's not getting better due to the aforementioned influx of ex-cons and their families. But our families are here and we like our jobs, soo...

White flight is what you're describing. It's a totally different problem rooted in a lot more than overpriced homes, though. It doesn't turn around for decades, if it ever does.

[Yegolev]

Somehow I read that in the voice of a plumber: "Well, there's your problem, ma'am..."

[Signe]

I was in Scotland for 11 days in September and it only rained on me for two of them.

It was probably the first and last time that ever happened. 

I've done all the math and reckon I can afford a medium sized cardboard box in a cozy corner of a Detroit bus station half a mile from the closest working public toilet. 

[Furiously]

I was in Scotland for 11 days in September and it only rained on me for two of them.

It was probably the first and last time that ever happened. 

I've done all the math and reckon I can afford a medium sized cardboard box in a cozy corner of a Detroit bus station half a mile from the closest working public toilet. 

Sounds like you would be living like a queen in Detroit....

[schild]

Building a house is one of the more miserable experiences you'll ever have. I do not recommend it. Death by billion decisions. And if that doesn't kill you, the fact that there's no way in hell you'll stay under budget, will.

I have 17 types of flooring and countertops and shit to pick from right now.

I'm about ready to tell them to just do whatever looks good.

[Yegolev]

Seems like a job for the wife.

[Merusk]

Once you start learning about the differences it's as engaging and geeky as selecting computer parts.

[Sky]

We missed a house that was on the market for about an hour a couple weeks ago. I'm still bummed about it, and the fiancee doesn't quite get it. It was owned by the family that owned and operated the best custom kitchen company in the area. And I like to cook.

Helps that unlike 95% of homeowners, they maintained their property.

But yeah, I enjoy the process and would probably enjoy a build or addition...from that perspective, anyway. I'm a bit of a perfectionist, though. For my living room I designed my own Arts and Crafts trim and stained lord knows how many hundreds or thousands of board feet...by hand. Took me a whole summer just to stain and poly. Totally worth it.

[IainC]

Hahaha! No Ubisoft, I won't accept your employment offer with a salary less than I was earning at Games Fucking Workshop 20 years ago. Really? What are you like?

[Merusk]

Well you know, Mr. C. If you ever want to get ANYWHERE in the games industry and be serious about a career you have to work for us or EA. I'm really doing YOU a service by even offering you this job, there's hundreds of candidates behind you.

 

[HaemishM]

Where's your passion for working in the video games industry?!! 

[RhyssaFireheart]

We missed a house that was on the market for about an hour a couple weeks ago. I'm still bummed about it, and the fiancee doesn't quite get it. It was owned by the family that owned and operated the best custom kitchen company in the area. And I like to cook.

Helps that unlike 95% of homeowners, they maintained their property.

But yeah, I enjoy the process and would probably enjoy a build or addition...from that perspective, anyway. I'm a bit of a perfectionist, though. For my living room I designed my own Arts and Crafts trim and stained lord knows how many hundreds or thousands of board feet...by hand. Took me a whole summer just to stain and poly. Totally worth it.

You know,. thinking about this - you've already said you plan to remain in your current house for the foreseeable future.  You like where you live, you like the location, but adding on or doing upgrades wouldn't net out to much of a bump in price when it comes down to it.

Except... so what?  While it's probably a good idea to consider resale value, unless you're planning to move within a short period of time, or intend to flip the house - why not outfit it out for YOUR comfort and convenience now?  You are the one living there and yeah, everyone wants the best ROI they can get, but you're never going to make it all back no matter what the realtors and home improvement shows say.  If it would improve your current lifestyle now and in the future, I'd say go for it.  Not everything has to be based on "will I get my money back when I sell?"  What if you don't sell for another 10 or 15 years after the upgrade?  No, you won't get that back then, but in the meantime, you had the place you wanted to live in.

[01101010]

You know,. thinking about this - you've already said you plan to remain in your current house for the foreseeable future.  You like where you live, you like the location, but adding on or doing upgrades wouldn't net out to much of a bump in price when it comes down to it.

Except... so what?  While it's probably a good idea to consider resale value, unless you're planning to move within a short period of time, or intend to flip the house - why not outfit it out for YOUR comfort and convenience now?  You are the one living there and yeah, everyone wants the best ROI they can get, but you're never going to make it all back no matter what the realtors and home improvement shows say.  If it would improve your current lifestyle now and in the future, I'd say go for it.  Not everything has to be based on "will I get my money back when I sell?"  What if you don't sell for another 10 or 15 years after the upgrade?  No, you won't get that back then, but in the meantime, you had the place you wanted to live in.

 

[Sky]

We missed a house that was on the market for about an hour a couple weeks ago. I'm still bummed about it, and the fiancee doesn't quite get it. It was owned by the family that owned and operated the best custom kitchen company in the area. And I like to cook.

Helps that unlike 95% of homeowners, they maintained their property.

But yeah, I enjoy the process and would probably enjoy a build or addition...from that perspective, anyway. I'm a bit of a perfectionist, though. For my living room I designed my own Arts and Crafts trim and stained lord knows how many hundreds or thousands of board feet...by hand. Took me a whole summer just to stain and poly. Totally worth it.

You know,. thinking about this - you've already said you plan to remain in your current house for the foreseeable future.  You like where you live, you like the location, but adding on or doing upgrades wouldn't net out to much of a bump in price when it comes down to it.

Except... so what?  While it's probably a good idea to consider resale value, unless you're planning to move within a short period of time, or intend to flip the house - why not outfit it out for YOUR comfort and convenience now?  You are the one living there and yeah, everyone wants the best ROI they can get, but you're never going to make it all back no matter what the realtors and home improvement shows say.  If it would improve your current lifestyle now and in the future, I'd say go for it.  Not everything has to be based on "will I get my money back when I sell?"  What if you don't sell for another 10 or 15 years after the upgrade?  No, you won't get that back then, but in the meantime, you had the place you wanted to live in.

Well, that's why the option is still on the table. I'm a firm believer in making a house your home, not an investment. However, there is the reality that we work for an organization funded by tax dollars allocated by the whims of politicians. So we do have to keep reality in mind, there. Also, we'd ideally like to retire in 16 years, so it needs to be manageable enough to polish off in that time frame. The bottom line as far as investment-side thinking goes is that on a blue moon sunday we might be able to pull out $100k reasonably (given the 3/1-1/2 at $135 and a $105k 3/1 this week) if we make it a 3/2. That's important so we don't have to write a check to "sell" the house (to cover the gap the improvements cost us vs sale price). Currently I could quickly sell at $60k, maybe 70k (currently all equity). So even in that case (100k improvements), the total investment is 157k + maybe 15k I've put into it over the last 8 years.

Again, didn't build chimney, repair walls, reno bathroom, waterproof basement, etc, etc for profit, and I'm ok with that as long as I'm not writing a check to move.

[Yegolev]

I've been trying to find the gif or video of a eastern-european car collision in which the occupants simply get out, grab their briefcases, and then walk off leaving their car in the intersection.

[MahrinSkel]

If it is this one, your google skills are weak and you should feel bad:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ID4t4Eapjjg

--Dave

[IainC]

If it is this one, your google skills are weak and you should feel bad:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ID4t4Eapjjg

--Dave

That isn't in Russia, it's in Kyiv. Specifically Verkhnii Val St. The intersection where the accident happened is directly opposite the Wargaming studio (you can see it through the trees to the left just past the accident site). I spent a lot of time crossing that street there, there was an accident approximately every three days because the traffic lights don't work properly and Ukrainian drivers don't pay attention to them anyway.

[MahrinSkel]

I take no responsibility for the labeling, it was just the first video result for 'walk away from crash briefcase'.

--Dave

[Endie]

I was in Scotland for 11 days in September and it only rained on me for two of them.

It was probably the first and last time that ever happened. 

What people don't get about Scotland is ow differentiated the climate is.  Certain areas of the western highlands get the sort of levels of rainfall associated with rain forests (c.180 inches a year), but here in the East Neuk of Fife we get about the same annual rainfall as in coastal Morocco, which is to say not a huge amount: about 23 inches a year.  A fun thing about Scotland is that those two extremes are about seventy-five miles apart.

Similarly, where I live we get an average of more than four hours of sunshine a day, and given how short the days are in winter that's a pretty good average.  But travel sixty miles north of here to the Cairngorm plateau and you'll be in a literally sub-arctic climate with some of Europe's deadliest conditions.

[Yegolev]

If it is this one, your google skills are weak and you should feel bad:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ID4t4Eapjjg

--Dave

Mildly bad.  I'll get over it.

I suppose to edit in a MILD defense, I was searching for gifs like a millennial.