Useless Conversation

[Paelos]

Simply put, you can't accurately assess how people react to unfamiliar situations with just an interview. That's not really a realistic goal of the process. A realistic goal is figuring out if they are competent, honest, will fit with the culture, motivated, and able to learn. Beyond that, you're trying too hard.

[Ingmar]

"I have a feeling this guy might be a moron" never goes over well as a reason in itself to nix somebody.

We've had a couple of those, actually. After interviews, we get together to discuss impressions and there have been at least two times I can think of where we all kind of shuffled uncomfortably until someone piped up with "is it just me, or did that guy seem really dumb?"

[Samwise]

able to learn.

THAT ONE.  How do you interview for that?

The problem I used to have when I was interviewing a lot of people for senior-level tech support (thankfully I'm no longer in that area) was that I was interviewing people who would need to be able to quickly (over the course of a few months to a year) become world-class experts on software that they were previously completely unfamiliar with.  Some people have great resumes, and during the interview they'll say they can learn anything, but once they've got the job they become dead weight because they refuse to learn any more than is necessary to fake it, or they have no problem solving skills whatsoever and hence can't produce any answers that a Google search couldn't provide better, faster, and cheaper.

Basically, these are people who if you asked them what they would do if shrunk and put in a blender would not think to get out of the blender.   If it seems like a stupid question to you, you're not one of the people it's designed to weed out.  Not that I've ever asked someone about being caught in a blender, but even the answers in this thread would be more useful to me in a hiring situation than most of what I get out of people from the usual interview questions.   Sky's answer would get him hired on the fucking spot if I had anything to say about it.

[lamaros]

Seriously?

Ask them about how they have previously demonstrated an ability to learn new operating software. Push that questioning with appropriate questions until you are confident they are not 'faking' it. If you can't find that then review what you are doing and ask better questions.

Ask them to answer example problems that arise in a typical work day. It isn't about only asking them stuff that they're familiar with, but asking them stuff that is specifically relevant to the position you are hiring them for. If you can't figure out a way to find questions to help you get those answers without resorting to bullshit hypotheticals then of course you're going to come out of an interview with nothing more than a "sense". A "sense" that can be completely wrong.

If you are unable to clearly define the role and formulate questions that reflect what the person being hired will need to be able to do then you're not just going to miss out on getting the competent people because you can get a good understanding of their capability, you're also going to miss out on people who get the understanding that you're a poorly run company with managers who might not be at all fun to work for.

Sky's answer is just an flowery way of saying "what a fucking stupid question". Making an interview into a process where you reward people for calling you out on your interview bullshit is not the way to get the best people for a job.

[Ingmar]

able to learn.

THAT ONE.  How do you interview for that?

Especially with the stupid trend that's going around now where people leave off their education in favor of detailing work experience more.

[Ironwood]

So, serious question for the people whose interview time is too precious to waste with brainteasers: as an interviewer, how do you assess someone's ability to deal with unfamiliar problems?  This probably isn't a big deal for accountants or dental hygienists, but for some jobs, it's not so much what you know right now as it is what you'll be able to figure out on the fly.  I haven't come up with a good system for this other than general gut feel, and "I have a feeling this guy might be a moron" never goes over well as a reason in itself to nix somebody.

You ask them just that :

"Tell me about a time you had to deal with something you didn't quite understand.  What were the outcomes ?  How did you approach the problem ?  If I was to say to you, 'do x or y' how would you go about finding out how to do it ?"

Jesus Christ, there's so many fucking people who don't understand that the interview process is a two way street.  If you want to know something, you have to ask.  If they can't answer, ask it a different way.  If they strike out 3 times on similar, but different, questions, then fucking fail them, the useless assholes.

If I'm interviewing for a tech position, I will deliberately ask them this.  "So, you're an Exchange chap with an infrastructure background;  how would you go about with a compression problem with a SQL database ?".  He doesn't need to know how; fuck, I don't even need to know how - what we're looking for here is something beyond 'I have no idea'.  I want diagnostic method and him showing he knows WHERE TO GOOGLE.  Does he belong to experts-exchange ?  Does he have mates who can help him ?  Is he even willing to try ?  Does he ask about the company, the department, who to go to ?

The great candidate is the one that will say 'Yeah, something happened similar in a previous job, let me tell you about it." and proceeds to give me a story that gives me confidence.

All these matter, but, much like the whole interview, it's about having a frank and open discussion about what YOU want from the position and what HE can do.

It's not really rocket science.  It's difficult, but it's not complicated, if you follow me.

[Ironwood]

able to learn.

THAT ONE.  How do you interview for that?

The problem I used to have when I was interviewing a lot of people for senior-level tech support (thankfully I'm no longer in that area) was that I was interviewing people who would need to be able to quickly (over the course of a few months to a year) become world-class experts on software that they were previously completely unfamiliar with.  Some people have great resumes, and during the interview they'll say they can learn anything, but once they've got the job they become dead weight because they refuse to learn any more than is necessary to fake it, or they have no problem solving skills whatsoever and hence can't produce any answers that a Google search couldn't provide better, faster, and cheaper.

Basically, these are people who if you asked them what they would do if shrunk and put in a blender would not think to get out of the blender.   If it seems like a stupid question to you, you're not one of the people it's designed to weed out.  Not that I've ever asked someone about being caught in a blender, but even the answers in this thread would be more useful to me in a hiring situation than most of what I get out of people from the usual interview questions.   Sky's answer would get him hired on the fucking spot if I had anything to say about it.

Make them prove it.  Anyone can say anything in an interview.  You want to hear the stories of when they DID.  You want them to make you believe that it's not only true and honest, but that it's part of who they are and they'll do it again.

As to the rest of your post, you're dodging.  You're trying to ask honest questions in a dishonest way.  I don't hold any fucking truck with that.  I don't want someone fucking with my head to get a straight answer out of me.  I want the interviewer to say, flat out, "previously, we had a problem hiring uncreative people unwilling to learn.  We don't want to make that mistake, so tell me how you're different.'

Honesty.  I respect it more.  If I get asked how to count fucking pennies in a jar at the end of a pier, I'm not going to take kindly to it.

[Ironwood]

Oh right, Lamaros said what I did.

Ok.

[Paelos]

Basically, these are people who if you asked them what they would do if shrunk and put in a blender would not think to get out of the blender.   If it seems like a stupid question to you, you're not one of the people it's designed to weed out.  Not that I've ever asked someone about being caught in a blender, but even the answers in this thread would be more useful to me in a hiring situation than most of what I get out of people from the usual interview questions.   Sky's answer would get him hired on the fucking spot if I had anything to say about it.

Or you end up with someone clever. The problem with those types of questions are that you may end up with people who simply interview well. There are certainly people who freeze up with esoteric questions. You may weed out a potential good hire because they simply weren't quick on their feet with a question that's unrelated to the field.

[Yegolev]

That's a fun thing for me.  I just don't interview well.  Ask me a on-the-fly question and I have a terrific chance of mind-freeze.  This happens when my wife challenges me to tell her exactly what I've done correctly ever, I mostly can't think of anything although its definitely true and I get that question all the time.  I didn't have a "good" answer for the blender question at first, but eventually came up with something (not enough info).  I'd probably have a hard time succinctly verbalizing how to peel a fucking apple as well, although if you give me some time and a computer I could draw up a fantastic process document on it, perhaps even with a RACI chart if I knew something about the organization.

I'm thinking Ironwood's approach may be best, be honest and give it a good try.

[Sky]

So are you hiring, Sam?  

The thing that clinched this job was suggesting fixes and upgrades to the existing system as I was led to the interview room by the 3 interviewers. And asking lots of questions about topology and policies.

My resume would be stupid per Ingmar, because I don't have a degree...and really, isn't what I've done for the last 13 years more relevant than the initial and now mostly obsolete info dump from a couple decades ago? Let me tell you about how well I learned to wire thicknet!

[Sky]

Sky's answer is just an flowery way of saying "what a fucking stupid question".

That there is 13 years of dealing with management and the public, bucko! 

[Samwise]

Or you end up with someone clever.

You say that like it's a bad thing, but as stated, that's pretty much my entire goal.   

[Yegolev]

I thought about commenting on the education-in-resume thing but decided against.

Clever people are just fine.  Cowboys are also superb if they know when to cowboy and when to follow the rules, but that requires experience in general and in the specific environment.

[Merusk]

I'm surprised to hear complaints about education on CV in the IT field.  As mentioned, certs and experience seem to matter more.  It's not like there's a professional degree you're looking for. 

Even then, Professionals only use the school to pre-sort you, ignoring you might actually be good instead of someone who "only" went to Kent or OSU instead of UC or Stanford.*   The actual license and years of practice are much more relevant than the educational degree.

*Snobbery of schools altered from traditional views for my specific profession.

[Signe]

Don't know where this should go but I know what I'm doing this weekend.  Sad, no?  This is the life of a lonely stoner.   

[WayAbvPar]

Data for rush jobs at work is late, so good chance I will have to forgo my 4 day weekend and work at least next Friday. Also, my wife washed my $500+ smart phone (which I left in the pocket of my shorts for like the 2nd time ever in my life). And I have a goddamned summer cold. Fuck this week.

[Draegan]

Ok so some update on my terrible journey around the Wheel of Time..

Finally grinded my way through Book 10. Oh boy, I can't even tell you what the ending was. Who cares. I'm glad that's over.

Now I'm into book 11 and it's a bit better, but holy fuck, GET MOVING please. I'm 6 chapters but we have some White Tower movement (good) some interaction with the Forsaken (good) but I get another retarded chapter about Perrin and Faile and I think it's still like 5 days after book 9? Fuck.

One thing regarding Perrin.. this guy is useless. I mean serious, his character has done absolutely nothing interesting. Run away from home. Kill a Whitecloak. Get Wolf Eyes. Go Home and save people. Get Rand fake mad at him. Get his wife kidnapped. and spend 2 books trying to get her back when all you have to do is get a god damn Asha Man and run some illusion shit on him and find the woman and blink back.

God DAMNIT. There are strings from 30 books ago that need to finally come to ahead. Morgase? Yeah she needs to get back. Rand? Yeah, haven't seen him in 2 books. Can we figure out what Verin's and Cadsuane's motivations are please instead of hinting at them forever?

Mat? He was a cool general in like book 6. Now I have to put up with him wandering around with Luca. Just fucking do something already.
Fuck.

I'm so angry now. But one more book and I get to Sanderson. Can't wait.

[Ingmar]

So are you hiring, Sam?  

The thing that clinched this job was suggesting fixes and upgrades to the existing system as I was led to the interview room by the 3 interviewers. And asking lots of questions about topology and policies.

My resume would be stupid per Ingmar, because I don't have a degree...and really, isn't what I've done for the last 13 years more relevant than the initial and now mostly obsolete info dump from a couple decades ago? Let me tell you about how well I learned to wire thicknet!

Leaving it off is fine if it isn't a degree! My point is that if you have the degree it demonstrates a certain amount of commitment and ability to learn in and of itself, regardless of whether the major was relevant.

[Merusk]

I'm so angry now. But one more book and I get to Sanderson. Can't wait.

I remember feeling all that.  Some of your problems are resolved soon, fear not.

Except Perrin.  Seriously, fuck that character's whole arc.

[Draegan]

He does't have a story arch. He's just stupid. For every braid tug you have five I AM NOT A LORD.

[Yegolev]

Leaving it off is fine if it isn't a degree! My point is that if you have the degree it demonstrates a certain amount of commitment and ability to learn in and of itself, regardless of whether the major was relevant.

I decided to leave it off because I have seven years of college from five different schools that don't add up to a degree.   You can consider that deceptive and I won't blame you.

[Viin]

able to learn.

THAT ONE.  How do you interview for that?

I think this one is easy for IT-like jobs. Ask them how a system works from their current/previous job, one they had to learn there. If they can't describe how it works in a way you can mostly understand it (or better, draw diagrams on the whiteboard) they probably never really figured it out to any worthwhile degree.

[Yegolev]

ISO27001 IS SO BORING

[Ironwood]

 

[Trippy]

My wife wants me to read Are You Smart Enough To Work At Google and after three pages I obviously am.  Not sure what to do with the rest of this book, though.

Did she want you to read it because in a NY Times interview, the entire google interview process was revealed to be utter nonsense with no correlation?

“We found that brainteasers are a complete waste of time,” said Bock. “How many golf balls can you fit into an airplane? How many gas stations in Manhattan? A complete waste of time. They don’t predict anything. They serve primarily to make the interviewer feel smart.”

Late to the party but...

Microsoft was the one that popularized this "brainteaser" thing way back when (the "why are manhole covers round?" is from them). However an ex-Google hiring person has claimed that Google never asked these sorts of questions (like "A man moves his car to the bank then suddenly becomes bankrupt, how is this possible?") but they have and still do ask "estimation" questions like "How many golf balls can you fit into an airplane?". This seemingly contradicts what Laszlo Bock said in his interview and she no longer works there so presumably she's wrong (as in Google no longer asks the estimation questions) but we would need somebody in Google HR to confirm this.

The more interesting thing to come out of the interview is Google confirming/rediscovering what researchers have know for quite some time now which is that "structured interviewing" is the only kind of interviewing that has been shown to have success in predicting workplace performance. Malcom Gladwell wrote an article about this back in 2000 in his New Yorker article "What do job interviews really tell us?" that was later reprinted in his book "What the Dog Saw: And Other Adventures".

If Google has in fact switched to structured interviewing it'll be interesting to see if other tech companies copy Google. Even though Gladwell's article came out a while ago nobody around here (SF Bay Area) seemed to care. Another style of interviewing which may be more efficient time-wise, at least, but hasn't gained in popularity is having group interviews where the interviewee is interviewed by multiple people at once. This cuts down on the inevitable redundancy in question asking when you interview with people one-on-one.

Here in startup central something some companies are doing more of is using the interview process to determine "cultural fit". At a large company like Google, which has it's own well-established culture, a single new-hire is not going to have any affect on the culture of the company (unless it's a new CEO like at Yahoo), so spending interview time on that is not necessary.  At a small startup, though, a single person can be very disruptive to a company if they have a personality that doesn't mesh well with the rest of company or they might not enjoy working at that company. Tech startups are often heavy on the "brogrammer" culture and feel like frat houses at times which can alienate women and others that don't like that kind of environment. This startup founder wrote an interesting article about using board games to judge a candidates cultural fit. I have no idea if playing group games is a better way to determine cultural fit but it's a clever way to try. at least.

[Samwise]

This startup founder wrote an interesting article about using board games to judge a candidates cultural fit. I have no idea if playing group games is a better way to determine cultural fit but it's a clever way to try. at least.

Want to figure out if someone's a team player, problem solver, and all that?  Have him sit in on a game of D&D with a bunch of his prospective coworkers.   

[bhodi]

Something I always ask in an interview from the other side - Tell me something that sucks about working here. Nowhere's perfect, so what's the thing here that annoys you the most?

How they react is often more instructive than the answer they give. And I can ask it freely at that point because, in general, I have nothing to lose.

[lamaros]

Something I always ask in an interview from the other side - Tell me something that sucks about working here. Nowhere's perfect, so what's the thing here that annoys you the most?

How they react is often more instructive than the answer they give. And I can ask it freely at that point because, in general, I have nothing to lose.

Really? Why would they give you a straight answer? If they do then you'll just be less likely to accept the position, and if they don't you'll think they're full of shit and be less likely to accept the position...

It's like those fuck-stupid "what's your worst/best trait" questions. Honest answers make you seem like a crappy hire, and disingenuous ones make you seem like an egotistical twit that no one would want to work with. They strike me as stupid game playing questions of the worst kind.

[Ironwood]

No, I agree with Bhodi.  Having been on both sides of it, not only would I ask it, if I was asked by a client, I'd answer it honestly so that a - They can be prepared and go in knowing what the story is and b - so that we're not wasting each others time.

If I'm leaving a company due to lack of planning and the stress it brings and the company answers 'sometimes things get rushed at the deadline', I want to know and I want them to know that it's not going to be something I'm going to accept.

If someone then says 'Ok, I hear that that sucks, but I can fix it or I'm invested in sorting it', well it's another chance to shine.

Also, if you can't tell in an interview when someone's spinning you bullshit about 'hey, everythings rosy in here' then you deserve the 12 month sodomy you're going to get.

[Paelos]

Asking questions about current projects, what's been the challenges on those projects, etc. That can usually give you the same information without the bluntness of the question. You're never going to hear a guy say, "Well Ray here is a big shithead."

[Ironwood]

You might.  It just won't be couched in those terms.

 

[Merusk]

Ah, vacation.

My favorite question to ask in interviews has always been about advancement opportunities.  So many blank stares over the years or sputterings of, "well, if someone were to leave.."

Yeah, next!

[Yegolev]

Here in startup central something some companies are doing more of is using the interview process to determine "cultural fit".

I've seen this quite a bit for large and small corps, all east-coast ones as well.  The significant data point is TCCC which is 130 years old, global, and carries a massive culture.  I interviewed there several times over the years and while there were plenty of "what would you do in this situation" and "tell us about a time you had to", some interviewers told me after that it's largely about personality and if you are right for Coke.  I already knew these people so I'm sure they were being honest.

[Sky]

You can pick up technical skills, but a jackass is always a jackass.

Paraphrasing the headhunter I spoke with last week.