Useless Conversation

[Signe]

You must really dislike your sister, Selby. 

[Tale]

The new person at my work just introduced herself. She's called Signe.

[Selby]

She's just severely OCD about organization and we tend to hoard things at the house. We joke about it a lot and she even admits she goes over the top. She'd get mad but laugh about it in the end.

[Merusk]

So.. Java's going away. Let's play "How fucked am I?"

Only two programs here, one of them being the timesheet software, the other the national print vendor's upload software. I know I'm not fucked.

[01101010]

So.. Java's going away. Let's play "How fucked am I?"

Only two programs here, one of them being the timesheet software, the other the national print vendor's upload software. I know I'm not fucked.

Haven't they been saying this about Flash for decades now? It's still hanging around. I'm not going to believe any of it until it happens.

[Endie]

So.. Java's going away. Let's play "How fucked am I?"

Only two programs here, one of them being the timesheet software, the other the national print vendor's upload software. I know I'm not fucked.

Java is not going away.

Do you mean some specific implementation, like browser plugins?

[Merusk]

Yes, sorry, the browser plugin is going away.

"With modern browser vendors working to restrict and reduce plugin support in their products, developers of applications that rely on the Java browser plugin need to consider alternative options such as migrating from Java Applets (which rely on a browser plugin) to the plugin-free Java Web Start technology," Oracle said in a blog post to users.

https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/entry/moving_to_a_plugin_free

Which still screws both of the above in my case. Neither vendor is likely to move quickly.

[WayAbvPar]

So.. Java's going away. Let's play "How fucked am I?"

Only two programs here, one of them being the timesheet software, the other the national print vendor's upload software. I know I'm not fucked.

KRONOS? 

[ynotgolf]

KRONOS? 
[/quote]

Had the Kronos folks selling me hard to use their product, told them how much I hated it at my previous employer, they took that as some sort of challenge/compliment!

[Merusk]

Deltek!

[Chimpy]

I solved the "Java version/browser plugin not supported" issue. I have a virtual machine with an old ESR Firefox that has updates turned off and Java 6 installed. All because of Brocade's terrible webUI on their fiber channel switches. Sure I could spend forty five minutes figuring out how to do zoning and port licensing via CLI but for as little as I need to make changes this method works fine.

[Merusk]

Well last ok at you with your, but I don't have to manage several hundred users quick fix.  😀

Truth be told if it gets to be a real issue we are going to do something similar.  The Mac users already have to run a Citrix app for time sheets, it will just extend to the pc users as well.

[Viin]

Timesheets are the devil, just nuke them. Oops you needed those? oh well, figure out a better way you lazy managers!

[Merusk]

Billable hours to a client are a thing. Welcome to the world of lawyers and architects, 15 mins at a time.

[ghost]

I always assumed attorneys just made that shit up.

[Yegolev]

They do, and so do architects, but that's how it works.

I almost planned a trip to Party City on reading "Java is going away" but then I came to my senses.

[Merusk]

Depends on the project manager/ attorney. I made sure to keep track of that shit to at least the 1/2 hour and monitored my team the same way. Not coincidentally I was far more productive than other teams wqith better margins.

[HaemishM]

Billable hours to a client are a thing. Welcome to the world of lawyers and architects, 15 mins at a time.

Also ad agency people, who still have not figured out a way to sell their ideas on some other metric than "hours worked." It's not so much that we haven't tried to figure that out, it's that clients ain't buying it.

[Abagadro]

I always assumed attorneys just made that shit up.

Not really, and most of us (those in the private sector anyways) actually do it in 6 minute increments, not 15.  When the client it paying on the order of 25-120 dollars for each of those 6 minutes chunks, they are going to scrutinize the hell out of it and you are going to have to justify it.  One of the reasons I bailed on the private sector, fuck billable hours.

On another note, it's amazing how much your tolerance decreases when you don't imbibe for 4 months.

[Morat20]

I always assumed attorneys just made that shit up.

Not really, and most of us (those in the private sector anyways) actually do it in 6 minute increments, not 15.  When the client it paying on the order of 25-120 dollars for each of those 6 minutes chunks, they are going to scrutinize the hell out of it and you are going to have to justify it.  One of the reasons I bailed on the private sector, fuck billable hours.

We do 6 minute chunks as a government contractor, and management has always been pretty pissy if you don't track your hours.

It's not that clunky for about 90% of the workers (for instance, I charge the bulk of my time to a single charge number, with about 200 hours done to a second one -- but that 200 hours is generally done as a 5 week chunk of my time, not scattered across the year). But some folks, like some of our key troubleshooters, they can get into crap because they might have six or seven projects on their plate from four or five departments representing multiple other companies, and management gets really pissy if you work 20 hours on Bob's project for Lockheed but bill Boeing as if you were working on Tim's.

[Abagadro]

Lawyers are usually working on cases in the 10s or 100s at a time. Lots of attorneys have dug themselves into deep, deep shit by double billing time. For instance, you are on a plane traveling to an out of town depo for one case, and while on the plane you read documents or pleadings from another case. Attorneys used to double bill that shit, but courts/Bars have ruled that to be unethical so now you have to proportionally bill it.  Billables are such a giant pain in the ass.

We have a guy pushing to "quantitatively" justify ourselves as in-house people by tracking time and comparing it to the cost of what our services would cost if it was done by outside counsel. I'm about to lose my shit about how bad of idea that is.  I keep wanting to force everyone to watch Seasons 3 & 4 of The Wire to show how much that leads to "juking the stats" and overall bullshit.

[Morat20]

Oh yeah. I get that. It's probably a lot easier for people like us -- we're engineers, doing jobs. I do the same job, but it's a partnership so sometimes Company A is paying for it, sometimes company B. And I have training (billed as overhead) that I don't bill to either.

It's all used for accounting, though, at the end of the day. Our customer, who pays us money to design, debug, fix, and analyze stuff for them wants to know where their money went. They don't want to find out that the 20k they spent on a materials analysis ended up funding a lot of Tim's work on machine learners, because the analysis only cost 5k.

But we work on primarily fixed cost stuff, or cost plus stuff. That's a whole other ballpark. If it's fixed costs, it's simple (X dollars a year. Most for labor, a bit of equipment and overhad). Cost plus is dicier, since you have to justify material and resource costs. And hardest would be something similar to lawyers -- a fixed labor cost but a more open-ended time commitment.

The potential for lying about how much you worked, double charging hours -- did Bob's work really take 20 hours? Or did you just say it did, and bill Bob for paying work you were doing for Tim?

I don't really know how lawyers keep that in check, honestly. We have routine audits, fixed budgets, a pretty firm managerial system, and a customer that can wander in and watch us work. Plus, we're a fairly ethical company on that. (Or at least, we stress the crap out of good timekeeping and lying on your timecard is one of two ways to get the boot immediately, no second chances.).

[Merusk]

Lawyers probably keep it in check the same way Architects do. If you're caught you can't ever practice again because it's an ethics violation and you lose your professional license. You've got to be willing to risk a lifetime career for that double billing.

It's just easier to be honest.

[Sky]

It took us 10 years to clear out all the number fudging at the library put in place by the previous administration (that the few old timers left keep pining for...they were nice people but borderline incompetent). Our numbers over that adjustment period kept going down on the books while going up in reality, so it kinda fucked us politically. But now we (finally) stand on solid, defensible ground and have real metrics we can plan for. It's refreshing working for a corporate culture that values data-driven decision making, and increasingly difficult for the 3 or 4 (highest paid) employees who aren't on the team with that.

This year will be the first year since I've worked at the library (16 years now) that the stats will be real across the board.

Oddly one of the things we've had to push hard for with the professional staff (the salaried folks like me) is to correctly account for hours worked 'overtime'. We don't allow overtime, so you build 'float time', it all has to be approved, as well. We used to have a bunch of people working off the clock without approval and not reporting it. I've never understood that shit.

[HaemishM]

One of my previous jobs working for a start-up/small business, I was the guy that caused the company to start selling web site design services (this was late '90's so still a new thing). We ended up getting a local casino's web site and got a contract where we'd change the web site's look every month (not an entire redesign, but a lot of new graphics every month). I dutifully put in my time for months and did work. I left that company because the sleazebag owner bounced our paychecks six months in a row. I later found out that he was taking all the hours I input on that casino job and just duplicating it so it looked like I worked twice as long as I did. I have no idea if he did that with other clients but based on what I've heard from some of them later, it wouldn't surprise me. That motherfucker was lucky he didn't end up in a suitcase at the bottom of a local body of water. And that was only some of the shady shit he did.

[ghost]

Lawyers probably keep it in check the same way Architects do. If you're caught you can't ever practice again because it's an ethics violation and you lose your professional license. You've got to be willing to risk a lifetime career for that double billing.

It's just easier to be honest.

I was mostly joking about attorneys making up their hours.  If anything, the attorneys I have worked with probably have underestimated their time.  Now CPAs are a different story.....

[Rasix]

Got our new puppy on Saturday, the day I'm finally over my week long illness. 

I am so tired.  I'm officially the "stay up with the puppy until it finally decides to sleep for the night" person. This has reduced my gaming to garbage on my phone.  I can read, but it's a more active process when I've also got to keep the puppy from trying to eat the book.

grumble grumble grumble

[Johny Cee]

Lawyers probably keep it in check the same way Architects do. If you're caught you can't ever practice again because it's an ethics violation and you lose your professional license. You've got to be willing to risk a lifetime career for that double billing.

It's just easier to be honest.

I was mostly joking about attorneys making up their hours.  If anything, the attorneys I have worked with probably have underestimated their time.  Now CPAs are a different story.....

Meh. 

In the accounting world, you can actually negotiate your fee ahead of time....  or go in and dispute a bill with your accountant.  Mostly your bill reflects what you have been billed before, with an add on if you have any issues that ran over.  We regularly write down new clients and work up their bill in subsequent years, or give large and regular accounts (ie, money coming in year round) discounts. 

Accounting actually has some pretty high overhead between software that requires annual updating, everything related to maintaining that software, keeping up with whatever new administrative nonsense comes down the pike (post-Enron, for instance, the amount of bullshit documentation you had to do doubled), required training to keep your licenses/certs up to date, etc.

Basically, accounting is more "this is the budget for the account, go under and its free money, go over and hope you can charge for it". 


A significant amount of Public Accounting work is actually handholding/therapist/bartender work as well...  You go to the accountant to get another opinion and a peptalk, or for someone else to tell you a hard truth and recommend a hard course of action.  Dealing with the IRS/Sales Tax auditor/etc?  You can either pay a reasonable fee for peace of mind or have lots of sleepless nights.

Public Accountants actually are in the top ten for "most empathy" by career along with things like pediatricians, social workers, and nurses.  Also why I roll my eyes at accounting being automated.  As long as people need cheap therapy, there will always be accountants.


Accountants also tend to be more reasonable in billing, since we count on regular clients over one off clients.  Getting an extra 25% out of you this year is a shitty tradeoff if it means we won't have your business for the next five.  This is also why there tend to be more squirrelly accountants fudging shit.

[Johny Cee]

Got our new puppy on Saturday, the day I'm finally over my week long illness. 

I am so tired.  I'm officially the "stay up with the puppy until it finally decides to sleep for the night" person. This has reduced my gaming to garbage on my phone.  I can read, but it's a more active process when I've also got to keep the puppy from trying to eat the book.

grumble grumble grumble

Crate train the little bastard.  It still sucks, because you will have to take him out at all hours of the night, and you have to train him when bed time is and no, whining won't get you out, but it only sucks for a couple months and massively decreases the housbreaking time.

Got a shih-pooh a year and a half ago, and little dog (so little bladder) almost broke me, but he was housebroken by four months.

[RhyssaFireheart]

Or if you don't crate train him, then have a smaller space set aside that you can block off with gates (we used our back hallway area) and give him progressively larger space as housebreaking improves.  We've personally never used crates to train our dogs but I know some people swear by them.

Also, bedtime is when you are ready to sleep, not the puppy.  Run him around a bunch shortly before it's time for bed, take him out one last time for the night and then lights out!

[Nebu]

Got our new puppy on Saturday, the day I'm finally over my week long illness. 

I am so tired.  I'm officially the "stay up with the puppy until it finally decides to sleep for the night" person. This has reduced my gaming to garbage on my phone.  I can read, but it's a more active process when I've also got to keep the puppy from trying to eat the book.

grumble grumble grumble

Thank you for making me appreciate my cat.   

Congrats on the new member of the family!

[Viin]

Crate train the little bastard.  It still sucks, because you will have to take him out at all hours of the night, and you have to train him when bed time is and no, whining won't get you out, but it only sucks for a couple months and massively decreases the housbreaking time.

This applies to children too, minus the crate. Or with a crate .. hmmmmm ..

[Ard]

[ghost]

Lawyers probably keep it in check the same way Architects do. If you're caught you can't ever practice again because it's an ethics violation and you lose your professional license. You've got to be willing to risk a lifetime career for that double billing.

It's just easier to be honest.

I was mostly joking about attorneys making up their hours.  If anything, the attorneys I have worked with probably have underestimated their time.  Now CPAs are a different story.....

Meh. 

In the accounting world, you can actually negotiate your fee ahead of time....  or go in and dispute a bill with your accountant.  Mostly your bill reflects what you have been billed before, with an add on if you have any issues that ran over.  We regularly write down new clients and work up their bill in subsequent years, or give large and regular accounts (ie, money coming in year round) discounts. 

Accounting actually has some pretty high overhead between software that requires annual updating, everything related to maintaining that software, keeping up with whatever new administrative nonsense comes down the pike (post-Enron, for instance, the amount of bullshit documentation you had to do doubled), required training to keep your licenses/certs up to date, etc.

Basically, accounting is more "this is the budget for the account, go under and its free money, go over and hope you can charge for it". 


A significant amount of Public Accounting work is actually handholding/therapist/bartender work as well...  You go to the accountant to get another opinion and a peptalk, or for someone else to tell you a hard truth and recommend a hard course of action.  Dealing with the IRS/Sales Tax auditor/etc?  You can either pay a reasonable fee for peace of mind or have lots of sleepless nights.

Public Accountants actually are in the top ten for "most empathy" by career along with things like pediatricians, social workers, and nurses.  Also why I roll my eyes at accounting being automated.  As long as people need cheap therapy, there will always be accountants.


Accountants also tend to be more reasonable in billing, since we count on regular clients over one off clients.  Getting an extra 25% out of you this year is a shitty tradeoff if it means we won't have your business for the next five.  This is also why there tend to be more squirrelly accountants fudging shit.

How many 6 minute increments do I owe for that?   

[Johny Cee]

Lawyers probably keep it in check the same way Architects do. If you're caught you can't ever practice again because it's an ethics violation and you lose your professional license. You've got to be willing to risk a lifetime career for that double billing.

It's just easier to be honest.

I was mostly joking about attorneys making up their hours.  If anything, the attorneys I have worked with probably have underestimated their time.  Now CPAs are a different story.....

Meh. 

In the accounting world, you can actually negotiate your fee ahead of time....  or go in and dispute a bill with your accountant.  Mostly your bill reflects what you have been billed before, with an add on if you have any issues that ran over.  We regularly write down new clients and work up their bill in subsequent years, or give large and regular accounts (ie, money coming in year round) discounts. 

Accounting actually has some pretty high overhead between software that requires annual updating, everything related to maintaining that software, keeping up with whatever new administrative nonsense comes down the pike (post-Enron, for instance, the amount of bullshit documentation you had to do doubled), required training to keep your licenses/certs up to date, etc.

Basically, accounting is more "this is the budget for the account, go under and its free money, go over and hope you can charge for it". 


A significant amount of Public Accounting work is actually handholding/therapist/bartender work as well...  You go to the accountant to get another opinion and a peptalk, or for someone else to tell you a hard truth and recommend a hard course of action.  Dealing with the IRS/Sales Tax auditor/etc?  You can either pay a reasonable fee for peace of mind or have lots of sleepless nights.

Public Accountants actually are in the top ten for "most empathy" by career along with things like pediatricians, social workers, and nurses.  Also why I roll my eyes at accounting being automated.  As long as people need cheap therapy, there will always be accountants.


Accountants also tend to be more reasonable in billing, since we count on regular clients over one off clients.  Getting an extra 25% out of you this year is a shitty tradeoff if it means we won't have your business for the next five.  This is also why there tend to be more squirrelly accountants fudging shit.

How many 6 minute increments do I owe for that?   

Pffffff.  New clients get an hour or two of ego puffing for free!