EQ releases expansion #12 - The Serpent's Spine

[Alkiera]

The Serpent's Spine is the mountain range that HighPass Hold is in, in Antonica.

Anyway, new race, new level cap, new AAs, new spells, blah blah blah.

Of actual interest was they've changed the con system to match most of the WoW/DAoC/EQ2 system, where grey is no exp, green is almost no exp, blue, white, yellow and red have their respective meanings, tho there is now a dark blue that is within 5 levels of you (for high levels where there's 15 levels of 'blue' cons), and yellow is now a 3 level range instead of 2.

They also added a combat mode system, where after combat, you have a 30 sec timer on you.  when that fades, and you sit down, you are in 'rest' mode, which changes your to a percentage based regen system, instead of the old method.  You get back 3% of hp/mana/end per tick, so you can go from empty to full in 3 minutes or less.  Regen spells and equipment stack with this effect, tho they are usually dwarfed by the rest effect.

Raid mobs have the rimer increased to 5 minutes, to make those fights both more challenging and less exploit prone.

'In combat' is basically any time you are on the hatelist of an NPC, or if you have a debuff/dot effect on you.  (Okay, technically being out of combat, but still having a dot on you is called something else, but is effectively the same, can't rest.)

I've been playing the low level game as a berzerker, a class that was added around the time I quit back in late '03 early '04. It's changed a lot, what with the tutorial zone, and new quest/task system(more like WoW/EQ2), tho it's not pervasive in the normal world, the new expansion supposedly has content for 1-75, so I'd expect a much stronger quest focus there, just like it was for the cats' newbie area when luclin came out.  I've been having fun with it.

I also hooked up with my old guild which is still alive and kicking, with my enchanter.  Now I'm 68, have a good number of my spells, and back to having a good time with the game again.  It really does keep getting better.

Feel free to post 'OMG EQ1 sux' or whatever below.  *shrug*

--
Alkiera

[Soln]

ya EQ1 sux and so does EQ2 as well, but they're got the best businesses I've seen this year of maintaining and improving their games with expansions.  And they may have the most interesting and varied worlds honestly.  I'm kind of jealous and wish I could get the fuck into EQ# because the world's are so rich.  But man o man their grind is punitive.  So screw that. 

EQ1 I can understand keeping the throttle on for all the manics, but with EQ2 I don't get why they don't bust open the XP curve and let every blow through to play end game.  Where everyone bloody is already.   It's like they're verrrry slooooowly following WoW who's several light years ahead of them in design.  Just do it already. 

[Alkiera]

EQ2 was/is so tiny, after coming from EQ1 in the LDoN era, with multi continents and a moon full of zones to choose from.

The reason I left EQ1 in the first place was that I'd reached the end of everything I could attain.  I don't raid much, so the higher planes weren't gonna happen, I was at the level cap, and there was nothing attainable really left.

Now there's been 6 expansions since then, with 10 new levels, lots of new interesting AAs and spells, and importantly, new places to go and see, new quests to do, etc.  A lot more group-oriented content as well, in the last few expansions, with nice equipment available.  'The grind' was generally only a problem when there was nothing interesting to do, because I'd hunted areas to death, and the only way to continue was to do the same exact thing more and more.

Admittedly, I am in a great 'family' type guild on my server, which is part of an alliance of several such guilds that run alliance raids, for those who want to get their raid on.  I've gotten from 65 to 68, and also gained about 10 AA, in the last month or so, which is with maybe 10-15 hours/week.

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Alkiera

[Sky]

Wow, I only have to sit for 3 minutes after waiting 30 seconds after every fight? Right.

[Moaner]

Wow, I only have to sit for 3 minutes after waiting 30 seconds after every fight? Right.

I think I understood that sentence, and no.  As a shaman I sat and chain pulled ala WoW today and made 1/4 of level 70 in an hour.  There is still a very long grind, but downtime has been reduced significantly.

The game has changed a LOT.  There is shitloads of solo content, single group content, family guild content, and hardcore raider content.  This expansion adds a little bit of everything, which should be nice.

So far it's pretty and the zones seem to be laid out very well.  I'll probably add some more after I play some over the next couple days, but I'm sick and grumpy so no promises.

[Soln]

Wow, I only have to sit for 3 minutes after waiting 30 seconds after every fight? Right.

family guild content

explain plz?

also, I'm with Sky -- any kind of DOT and I have to sit on my solo ass which should be unnecessary. As a shaman, you can heal.  Soloing you get near to 1/3 or <1/4 all the time which for any kind of warrior is a fugging drag.  Which is why WoW invented First Aid -- a poor man's heal only usable out of combat and not much good only as a mean to halve regen time (that and Cure Poison etc.).  I am playing and I want to get into EQ2 because I'm jealous of all the lore and stuff, but it's painfully clunky. (e.g. right click menu selections for EVERYTHING).

[Phred]

Wow, I only have to sit for 3 minutes after waiting 30 seconds after every fight? Right.

family guild content

explain plz?

also, I'm with Sky -- any kind of DOT and I have to sit on my solo ass which should be unnecessary. As a shaman, you can heal.  Soloing you get near to 1/3 or <1/4 all the time which for any kind of warrior is a fugging drag.  Which is why WoW invented First Aid -- a poor man's heal only usable out of combat and not much good only as a mean to halve regen time (that and Cure Poison etc.).  I am playing and I want to get into EQ2 because I'm jealous of all the lore and stuff, but it's painfully clunky. (e.g. right click menu selections for EVERYTHING).

Actually EQ had first aid already. It's just, like everything else in EQ, it only half ass healed you. I understand they improved it later though.
In WoW you can bandage in combat too btw.

[Lum]

Mobhunter's writeup on the out of combat regen stuff: http://www.mobhunter.com/001499.html

I plan on dorking around with it a bit when I get home tonight, I still have an active account from when the progressive servers went up.

[Trippy]

From Lum's link:

The most baffling complaints come from those who feel that the downtime somehow resulted in greater skill when all it really did is give us more time for Tivo.

I'm not sure "skill" is the right word but the old system definitely did require casters to manage their mana and spells properly if they wanted to play well. The new system, not as much. E.g. with my healers I would always ask how many HPs people had so that I could mem the properly "sized" heals so as to minimize "overhealing" which just wastes mana. With the new system it's much less important to do things like that.

On an semi-unrelated note damage casters are going to see a huge increase in DPS with this change.

[Alkiera]

Wow, I only have to sit for 3 minutes after waiting 30 seconds after every fight? Right.

family guild content

explain plz?

Family guild: Primarily a social group/group-finding structure, as opposed to a raiding guild.  Generally much lower entry reqs, much less serious approach to the game, fewer total active characters, etc.  Some family guilds, like mine, do take some things more seriously from time to time, and are part of an alliance that does raiding.  It's MUCH less frequent than a raid guild would do it, and not mandatory... just allows members to do things that aren't possible without a raid of some sort.

also, I'm with Sky -- any kind of DOT and I have to sit on my solo ass which should be unnecessary. As a shaman, you can heal.  Soloing you get near to 1/3 or <1/4 all the time which for any kind of warrior is a fugging drag.  Which is why WoW invented First Aid -- a poor man's heal only usable out of combat and not much good only as a mean to halve regen time (that and Cure Poison etc.).  I am playing and I want to get into EQ2 because I'm jealous of all the lore and stuff, but it's painfully clunky. (e.g. right click menu selections for EVERYTHING).

The Bind Wound skill has been in EQ since the begining.  After Kunark or so, it admittedly wasn't as attractive due to ballooning fighter HP, but there are AA's and whatnot to allow your skill to go up, and to allow you to heal more per bandage, etc.  You can Bind Wound any time you aren't going to be interrupted by being hit.

There is some talk of adding the ability to cure poison/disease with the skill, but also, there are more alchemical solutions to those kinds of problems these days too.  My warrior friend can be found soloing low blues in vairous zones, using potions to heal himself in combat, at about 15pp a shot.  You can also get potions that do haste, clarity, regen, HP/AC buffs, etc.  The rest change just means he saves on using potions between fights.

You mock the 3 min downtime, but it's the difference between probably 20-30 hp/tick sitting before, with AA regen and items... to closer to 300 hp/tick sitting in rest mode now, depending on your hp total.  It's a percentage(3%/tick).  It also helps endurance for melee, which before was very difficult to get to go up(no spells to heal/regen endurance, as all the old ones broke(on purpose) when they changed the nature of end.)  Now they occasionally will call for rest breaks, which used to be a caster-only thing before, because resting actually helps them.  (For those who haven't played in awhile, all the old disciplines, and a bunch of new stuff, have been changed to use endurance.  Pure melees have the majority of these, but hybrids have a few new things as well.)

From Lum's link:

The most baffling complaints come from those who feel that the downtime somehow resulted in greater skill when all it really did is give us more time for Tivo.

I'm not sure "skill" is the right word but the old system definitely did require casters to manage their mana and spells properly if they wanted to play well. The new system, not as much. E.g. with my healers I would always ask how many HPs people had so that I could mem the properly "sized" heals so as to minimize "overhealing" which just wastes mana. With the new system it's much less important to do things like that.

On an semi-unrelated note damage casters are going to see a huge increase in DPS with this change.

You might think that... but at any level, and especially at high levels, it not too difficult for a dps caster to take agro from the tank... and when caster hp is about half tank hp, and caster AC is half to a third tank AC, never mind differences in skills...  Getting agro is PAINFUL.  And unless your group has an uber tank or a backup healer, the main healer is gonna be focused on the tank( my common tank was gone for awhile like me, and is a little on the low side(11k hp buffed, as opposed to 12k or so unbuffed) and the cleric pretty much has to start CH around 75-80% or it's not going off in time, and unless he crits, it's not really gonna completely heal him.  There are often fights where the tank never gets over 75%, with the cleric chain casting heals.)

In short, I'm liking the changes so far.

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Alkiera

[El Gallo]

Do people still do AoE groups?  I imagine they would be insane under these rules, if you found a place with enough spawn to keep up.

[Phred]

Do people still do AoE groups?  I imagine they would be insane under these rules, if you found a place with enough spawn to keep up.

They nerfed the experience in the old ae areas pretty hard. I don't know if they added any new ones.

[Tale]

I still have an active account from when the progressive servers went up.

Are those still busy? For two weeks, I had a regular group of old raiders from 1999/2000 and we enjoyed the nostalgia despite the dumbed-down parts, but once we hit level 20 and got our surnames, we lost interest again.

[jpark]

Thanks for the update Alkeria.

[Moaner]

I haven't had much time to mess around with the expansion but a good friend has been playing quite a bit since its release and it sounds like they have added some interesting encounters.  For instance a 1 groupable named they ran into ate the tank, just gobbled him up.  He was transported to a small room that resembled a stomach and had to beat his way out by attacking some big glowing red thing.  By the time the mob horked the tank the rest of the party was pretty much dead so you are going to want at least a couple heavy tanks when attempting this thing.

It appears as if there are two opposing factions to choose from when questing similar to Velious and Dragons of Norrath.  I have no idea what the factions are or how they fit into the lore, but it seems that once you have enough faction with one side you can get instances and the like which I’m assuming lead towards the end zone.

The new spells are tiered.  The first tier spells are available from vendors scattered throughout the expansion.  The second tier spells are dropped by 1 groupable mobs.  The third tier spells are dropped off raid mobs.  I’m not sure how this is going to work out in the long run, but it looks interesting for sure.

There is all kinds of weird crap too I noticed.  Instead of just a con message you now get an additional message if a mob can see invis or is a raid mob.  The raid mobs say, “It looks like it would take an entire army to defeat this creature”, or something like that.  No more pulling new mobs to your group only to discover it hits for 4000 and casts AE silence.  Weeee!

Overall it looks like a solid expansion.  After 7 years or whatever though, I’m just burned out.  The only thing keeping me going at this point are friends.

[Threash]

You mock the 3 min downtime, but it's the difference between probably 20-30 hp/tick sitting before, with AA regen and items... to closer to 300 hp/tick sitting in rest mode now, depending on your hp total.

He was mocking the fact that you have to wait 3 mins when in wow you can bandage for 8 seconds every 5 mobs or so and thats all the downtime you will have.  With the options out there now 3 min dowtime is just not acceptable between every mob.

[Margalis]

I thought the percentage-based recovery was going to be in the game at launch. I remember reading about it before the game came out.

[Azazel]

He was mocking the fact that you have to wait 3 mins when in wow you can bandage for 8 seconds every 5 mobs or so and thats all the downtime you will have.  With the options out there now 3 min dowtime is just not acceptable between every mob.

I don't think EQ1 is really in the position of getting new subscribers anymore. They're more interested in retaining the ones they have by making the game less like getting teeth extracted (which they've slowly been doing, incrementally since WoW's release) and perhaps getting former players in the post-WoW world to try it again.

Still, they're in better shape than EQ2, right? So WTF!

[damijin]

He was mocking the fact that you have to wait 3 mins when in wow you can bandage for 8 seconds every 5 mobs or so and thats all the downtime you will have.  With the options out there now 3 min dowtime is just not acceptable between every mob.

I really hate to see people say things like "not acceptable" when referencing older games design. You make it sound like theres only one way to design an MMO, and that way is WoW. I'm not saying that excessive downtime is always good thing, but it does have some merits. For instance, in games with less downtime you're typically always busy doing something. Fighting, healing, something. To do nothing would feel inefficient.

Games with downtime give room for a universal breather where people can socialize or do other non-combat activities. Plus, back in school I used to get a lot of homework done during downtime, it's great for our addicted youth  :-D

[Slyfeind]

Games with downtime give room for a universal breather where people can socialize or do other non-combat activities. Plus, back in school I used to get a lot of homework done during downtime, it's great for our addicted youth  :-D

I'm tempted to agree here. The only thing keeping me from EQ is the terrible grind, and yet...I feel no sense of community in WoW. I only played EQ up to level 20, but I still felt closer to the playerbase than I have in WoW.

I ran into a real life friend in WoW about a week ago. We used to play DAOC together, and he just wanted to shoot the shit while standing around Stormwind. I just couldn't do it. I felt like we could be questing or travelling or something. We could chat via /tell or /group. We didn't need to just stand there!

After 60 levels, I have no connection to the puppets I control in WoW. I do remember fondly sitting atop the Rivervale wall, looking over the valley while my wounds healed, wondering if I would ever see the inside of Clan Runnyeye....

[Phred]

I tend to agree with you Slyfiend. I think the pacing in EQ was more conducive to building a community. I actually enjoyed getting to know my groupmates during downtime. In WoW, with it's lack of downtime, I rarely get to know people as well as I did in EQ. I thought the pacing of the fights was slightly better in EQ too. I think the fact that you could keep the tank up in a group with a 10 sec complete heal was a lot more enjoyable than playing whackamole with the fast casting tiny heals in WoW.

[Simond]

Just a little tip for anyone thinking of giving this a go: The EQ Test server has permanent double xp, the /testbuff command (levels you up to 25 with maxed skills and a passable generic gear setup), plus all expansions enabled for free.

[jpark]

Misc. questions.

1.  Do tanks in EQ now have something to do during combat other than spam taunt?

2.  What's the status of languages - are they still trivial to learn - or are they somehwere in between and fun to explore?

3.  Has pvp been improved at all since the failed arena combat days?

4.  Do raids still function on the one tank/off tank model - with the rest of the tanks idol?

5.  Are clerics still supreme?  (not a complaint)

6.  Are there mini-instances that small groups can do - an improved version of LDON with better loot?

7.  Has there been any update to the character models in either appearance or their kinetics?

8.  Do you need a slower (shaman) for every combat session ?  Or is group composition more flexible?

9.  Are the zones too numerous?  Does the game feel empty?

10.  How is that server doing that introduced the pre-kunark era EQ?

Any updates are appreciated :)

[Azazel]

Also have to agree with Skyfeind on that. I've just got no connection to the massive mass of fucktardery that is the WoW playerbase, and while many people in my guild are probably nice enough, the zerg-invite principle that pretty much every WoW guild seems to follow ensures that I don't know any of them well enough to call friends, or group with any of them regularly (or barely at all).

Add to that the fact that WoW at 60 is just EQ but without the things that made EQ accessable to casual play at 60 means that while I can't be arsed returning to EQ and a list of "vital" flags longer than my arms, it's probably about time to pack WoW in again as well.

[Sky]

Casual play at 60? At 54, my necro was losing a couple of weeks (at minimum) of experience every time he died. One reason I quit was that if I lost 54 (and a couple nice spells), I'd not want to bother working out of 53 again.

[Moaner]

jpark,

1.  Sure, but not a whole lot.  There are now several different types of defensive disciplines which when triggered make the tank harder to hit, riposte every hit, crit every hit, etc.  There are also a bunch of Alternate Advancement skills which add quite a bit to tank classes including snares, summons, group auras, reverse damage shields for paladins, etc.  Still, a tank tanks, it’s not that exciting after 70 levels.

2.  Languages are fluff.  I learned them all in one afternoon in order to better wear this .

3.  No, PvP sucks even worse now.  Resists are so high on tank classes now a caster has no chance of ever getting through. 

4.  Some do, some don’t.  Most high end raids in EQ now involve splitting the raid into 2 or 4 parts.  Each partition of the raid will have a main and secondary tank, but things are MUCH more hectic now.  The new raid content is tits if you are into that sort of thing.

5.  Yes.  Every serious guild needs lots of them.  They are still treated like royalty because no one wants to play one and they are needed so badly. 

6.  Yes.  This is one area where the dev team has excelled.  There are two expansion which sort of follow the LDoN formula, Dragons of Norrath and Depths of Darkhollow.  Both contain a long progression of instances which lead to a raid boss or zone.  Depths of Darkhollow is probably my favorite expansion as it added so much for the casual player, raid style encounters for single groups.  I seriously think there is more content in DoD than there is in the entire world of WoW.

7.  Not since Luclin, although several older zones have been revamped. 

8.  Yes, although several classes can slow now including bard, beastlord, enchanter, and of course shaman.

9.  Funny you ask that.  The new zones are fucking crowded.  Crowded like lguk in 99.  I ran through one of the new zones which contains mobs that are 71-77 and not a single one was standing.  Stupid.  It appears that this new expansion contains very few instances which is a huge let down for me personally.  I am not competing for mobs in opens zones anymore, I did enough of that 5 years ago. 

10.  I have no idea :)

Hope that helps some.  If anyone is actually considering playing or currently plays, give Phluphy a tell on Fennin Ro.  And I'm sorry if this is hard to read, I'm mostly asleep at this point.

EDIT:  I forgot about one of the most important additions to the game for us non hardcore players.  There is now a guild hall and guild lobby.  The guild hall is basically a meeting place, shared bank, and med pool for your guild.  The guild lobby however contains corpse summoners which will summon your corpse for a small fee.  There are always clerics standing around clicking rezes for people in the lobby, so dieing is really not that big a deal anymore.  It’s been both a blessing and a curse.

[Strazos]

I just want to know what happened to rogues. At some point my account got bugged or something, and as far as I know, I can still log in and play if I really wanted to.

But anyway....my Rogue no longer Assassinates lowbie mobs, and hits for absolutely nothing. I use to be able to BS for upwards of 1k on a single shot...last time I checked, I was hitting for below 100 on a regular swing, with backstabs under 300. What gives?

[Moaner]

Sorry Strazos but I honestly don't know much about rogues.  I know they did some reworking of the melee system months and months ago, but I'm not sure if that's your problem or not.  I'm sure a GM would give you a hand if you wanted to petition.  You typically don't have to wait long for a response and their new problem ticket system is actually really kind of cool.

The only thing I know about rogues is that at level 70 in full raid gear they are death incarnate.  Regular double back stabs for a combined 64k is just sick.

[El Gallo]

Casual play at 60? At 54, my necro was losing a couple of weeks (at minimum) of experience every time he died. One reason I quit was that if I lost 54 (and a couple nice spells), I'd not want to bother working out of 53 again.

Ny understanding is that it is basically impossible not to get a rez anymore in EQ.

[Strazos]

64k?

God damn. Mudflation.

[shiznitz]

But anyway....my Rogue no longer Assassinates lowbie mobs, and hits for absolutely nothing. I use to be able to BS for upwards of 1k on a single shot...last time I checked, I was hitting for below 100 on a regular swing, with backstabs under 300. What gives?

The really powerful melee attacks are all disciplines now, requiring endurance. Maybe backstab became a /disc but it should still be uber.

[Bill]

Never played EQ1 that much but I'd be interested to see how the graphics revamp looks, anyone care to post any screens? I've see all the SOE site has to offer, it'd be nice to see some actual player screenshots. I'll guess I'll get back to googling.

[Soln]

Tipa over at West Karana always has nice screenies

[Azazel]

Casual play at 60? At 54, my necro was losing a couple of weeks (at minimum) of experience every time he died. One reason I quit was that if I lost 54 (and a couple nice spells), I'd not want to bother working out of 53 again.

I dunno when you stopped playing, but as the game matured, casual play indeed became not only a possible but rewarding way to play the game. People like to ran on it and call it EverRaid, etc, and that's definately a big part of the game, but there was lots of 1-group content and stuff you could do even with 2-3 players when I stopped playing. LDoN, DoD, and now with things like healing/hgaste/clarity/etc potions and the reduced downtime, it seems like not only is the game playable for a casual level-cap player (and WoW is playable at cap) but a hell of a lot rewarding with much more to do (which is where WoW falls down, maybe BC will recify this?)

[Strazos]

All I remember is that rogues could not solo. At all...well, maybe with super uber gear, which I did not have.