So. What's BioWare's MMO?

[Soln]

it could be anything.  But people should check Ubiq's preso at zenofdesign to see where he's at.  With all that conviction, I can't imagine there won't be classes etc.  And for clarity his title is "lead combat designer" and the ad included "fantasy combat".  It will be mainstream and it won't innovate out of the box -- it will innovate within the confines of the AAA MMO.

it probably is a license.  Sadly, its prolly not LOTR. 

If people are that curious they should start searching for any old news items of Pandemic/Bioware and their VC firm with other media companies, book/film/comic etc.

[schild]

Too bad Jade Empire was kinda teh suq. If Fable and Jade Empire met at a halfway point, I'd bet we'd have a pretty fun game on our hands. My opinion? Both companies are completely too ambitious. More than that, I don't see why they bloat the PR on stupid shit like conversations. I hate to say it, but Indigo Prophecy did the Mass Effect conversation system already. Unless I'm missing something huge. Anyway, yea, meh. Bioware is making an MMOG. They should call it Black Isle Online and do some good in this terrible world... Or something. I'm like the emo gamer right now. Fuckers. Squaresoft did this to me.

I think.

[Lum]

Yeah, Ubiq and I pretty much agree: classes == skill systems, only more accessible to novices, if done right. Skill systems always end up as de facto class systems. I know, I was a charter monkey of the dex monkey class in UO (spec in poisons).

As for what they're working on? I got nothin'.

[Yoru]

Too bad Jade Empire was kinda teh suq. If Fable and Jade Empire met at a halfway point, I'd bet we'd have a pretty fun game on our hands. My opinion? Both companies are completely too ambitious. More than that, I don't see why they bloat the PR on stupid shit like conversations. I hate to say it, but Indigo Prophecy did the Mass Effect conversation system already. Unless I'm missing something huge. Anyway, yea, meh. Bioware is making an MMOG. They should call it Black Isle Online and do some good in this terrible world... Or something. I'm like the emo gamer right now. Fuckers. Squaresoft did this to me.

I think.

The conversation systems are close, except that the Mass Effect one is much smoother. They had a (prerecorded) demo at their Digital Acting panel, which I attended with Llava. My only notes from it are: "Cinematic Design - interactive narrative. Conversations, cutscenes."

However, the video they showed of a conversation was much more fluid than Indigo Prophecy; in IP, the character talks, then the gameworld freezes and you get to make choices. In Mass Effect, it appears as though the menu comes up either during the trailing bit of the previous character's dialog, or the gameworld continues to animate a bit to give the illusion of continuity. I believe it's the former, but I wasn't checking those particular points of reference particularly closely.

Further, the control system for choosing dialog points is different; in IP, the directions seemed semi-random. In ME, they're arranged as points on a circle, with the location on the circle indicating the mood and tone of the response.

As for what they're actually working on... I have no idea, and IMO it's pretty pointless to speculate. They'll tell us when they're ready; getting worked up over "zomg I don't want SWG2!!" at this point is pretty silly.

[Tale]

His Dark Materials MMO! Use your subtle knife to seamlessly cross over into EQ or WoW.

[Engels]

I guess my point is that its all about the execution, and not the pre-popularity of any particular IP. EQ had no IP. Warcraft's IP was awsome for a smallish percentage of the population, but nothing to predict WoW's success by. StarWars, enormous, and well all know how sadly that story ended.

In otherwords, Bioware could make a Dune game that sucks even worse than SWG, or mystically create a stunning game out of the story's core concepts, but its all down to the execution. What would interest me in an attempt at a Dune MMO would be that the books do not lend themselves to the facile 'loot, ding, pwnzor' schema of most MMO rubrics out there. I agree with Trippy that it would probably have to asimilate some aspects of Eve's skill tree based advancement, but without the reliance on item upgrades, which are essentially non-existent in the books.

Lum's right that in the final analysis, levels/classes aren't that different than a skill tree, but the illusion is all. When someone asks me about my toon in Eve, I say "I'm working on missles and some signal analysis skills', not 'I'm a missle/ECM dude'. The difference is cosmetic, but immersive fantasy is based on perception. Sure, when you run into a certain type of spaceship in Eve, you soon learn to expect a particular variety of whoopass, say, Caracal means missles, an Amarr ship probably means lasers, etc, but the choice to diversify is so great that the player is not type-cast upon a first meeting, and hence the illusion of a free-willed person making individual choices is retained.

The lore of Dune lends itself more to the Eve/old SWG skill tree tree progression simply because there are no set expectations for classes. Furthermore, the lack of 'hallowed l3wt of doom' in Dune would create even further challenges for the creators. I'm not saying it would be easy, and I'm certainly not saying it would be very marketable; but I'm very tried of easy or marketable.

[Samwise]

His Dark Materials MMO! Use your subtle knife to seamlessly cross over into EQ or WoW.

The subtle knife is overpowered.  Also, my toad daemon isn't well balanced with respect to lion daemons.   

[Stormwaltz]

BioWare *not* flat out denying that it is Star Wars - unless they are milking it on their forums for publicity (which is ENTIRELY possible - hell, why not?).

JFYI, BioWare has a long-established policy of not commenting on rumors, whether true, partly true, false, or just plain crack-brained. That's why they never respond to the yearly "EA/MS/Atari is buying Bio!" rumor.

[schild]

Fuck rumors. You all, and everyone else, shouldn't announce a game until it's 80% complete.

No games live up to their hype anyway.

Edit: That came off as ridiculous. What I mean to say was - You all better not be dicking around with a Star Wars License.

[Signe]

There's nothing left of the Star Wars license but the dicking around.

[brian]

Pardon my ignance, but wouldn't Star Wars be locked down in some agreement with SOE?  I can't imagine they left the door open for LA to produce a second MMOG that would directly compete with theirs.

- Brian

[Reg]

Well Schild doesn't like Dune. That's proof enough of its popularity isn't it?

[Cyrrex]

There's nothing left of the Star Wars license but the dicking around.

There is TONS left in the license.  Maybe one of the problems with the license is that they are always using material from such a narrow part of that universe.

Relevant to the subject here, it was the two KOTOR games that actually went way outside of the narrow confines of the movie canon for the first time.  This was a strong part of the appeal for the KOTOR games...with very few continuity rules to follow, they (first Bioware, then Pandemic) were more or less free to do what they wished.   With that freedom, they created two games that by most reasonable accounts were commercially successful and well received.  Bioware essentially created new canon, yet managed to remain true to the "feel" of the SW universe.

Needless to say, regardless of the general opinion around F13, if Bioware were to announce a KOTOR-esque MMO, or even a SW MMO set in another period outside of the movie canon, the masses would be frothing with excitement.  They'd probably be able to move millions of boxes based on nothing more than the perception that Bioware knows how to make a SW game.

That isn't to say that I think a KOTOR-like MMO is a good idea.  The best bits of those games are probably not things that can be easily reproduced in an MMO.

[Rasix]

So... can I pre-order yet?  I'm sure the EB Games guys would let me put $5 down on "Unnamed Bioware MMO".

[Trippy]

Pardon my ignance, but wouldn't Star Wars be locked down in some agreement with SOE?  I can't imagine they left the door open for LA to produce a second MMOG that would directly compete with theirs.

- Brian

Apparently not:

However, what the LucasArts rep said next raised another interesting possibility--that another Star Wars MMORPG could be in the works. "We have had several developers approach us expressing interest in developing a future Star Wars online game," said the rep. (emphasis in the original.) However, if any such game is in the works, it will be a long time until it surfaces. "As of right now, it hasn't gone anything beyond that (that is, no conversations, no serious talks, no pitches, etc.)," assured the rep.

[VickeVire]

I can say to the Dune thing, that's not gonna happen as the rights to all Dune is locked by the network that made the Children of Dune mini-series... personally the Dune IP would make my day

[Jayce]

Something new.  CHECK
Space ships.  CHECK
Lasers. With old style revolvers.  (I'm a purist, what can I say).   CHECK (except the revolvers)
Atmospheric flight. 
Interdependancy. CHECK
Skill sets, not level.  CHECK
Not FPS.   CHECK
Central conflict (i.e. - PvP heavy)  CHECK
Crafting.  CHECK
The choice to whack 2000000 space monsters -or- quest.  But not relegated to one or the other.  CHECK
Exploration.  CHECK
Settlement.
Power struggles between players.  CHECK
Mob/mafia/strong arm tactics.  CHECK
An active and working economy.   CHECK

Not to pimp EVE (I don't play it), but this already exists.  I daresay that even if Bioware's new game is innovative it won't hit 13/15 of your points.

[SnakeCharmer]

A couple other points to add to my MMO wishlist...
Must be able to get OUT of the ship
Ground combat

[CadetUmfer]

Eve does read like a checklist of everything I'd want in an MMO.  Too bad it still manages to be slow, cold, and lifeless enough for me to not be able to get into it.

[Jayce]

A couple other points to add to my MMO wishlist...
Must be able to get OUT of the ship
Ground combat

I think my point is: you won't be satisfied.  The example is that there is a game existing - right now - that matches your specifications almost to the letter, but it has a fatal flaw that prevents you from enjoying it.

I'm just doing a public service.  I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you people are never going to be satisfied.  Just accept it.

[Soln]

who are we kidding?  If whatever they produce in 3-4 years is close to their regular quality of title we'll all own it

[Miasma]

My only concern with buying an IP is that they might handcuff themselves and have to make bad design decisions based on already established lore (like Star Wars set at the time of the movies), or even worse have to bend to existing mechanics (like a D&D license).  I think a BioWare Star Wars MMO would turn out fine if they set it in the KOTOR timeframe.  As long as they don't make the same mistakes as SWG and DDO I don't care too much about what the IP is because they will be able to make it their own.

I don't want Dune.

[SnakeCharmer]

A couple other points to add to my MMO wishlist...
Must be able to get OUT of the ship
Ground combat

I think my point is: you won't be satisfied.  The example is that there is a game existing - right now - that matches your specifications almost to the letter, but it has a fatal flaw that prevents you from enjoying it.

I'm just doing a public service.  I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you people are never going to be satisfied.  Just accept it.

The fact that I never get to step out of my ship is a big turn off.  I don't want to spend ALL my time in space.  On a ship.  Mining.  
I want to socialize. On the ground. And space.
I want to explore. On the ground.  And space.
I want to fight. On the ground. And space.

That is the fatal flaw of Eve for me, as you said.  

I was satisfied with preCU SWG, as an example.  Put whatever skin/theme/whatever you want on that design, and I'll play it.  All it was missing was atmospheric flight.

And as far as BioWare making an SWG2 and making it fit with cannon....Wasnt KOTOR1/2 outside of cannon?  Actually, what BioWare did with KOTOR BECAME Star Wars cannon I believe.

But nevertheless.

I've said it once, twice, maybe even three times.

Firefly.

[shiznitz]

If I had to guess (and I do since I don't know anything) Bioware - renowned for publishing quality games using standard RPG elements - will publish a high quality MMOG with standard RPG elements. They will be the first to "copy" WoW in that sense.

[brian]

I agree an existing franchise is likely.  Bioware seems to have had its greatest successes going that route, and as this is their first foray into MMOGs, I'd expect them to embrace, as much as possible, what has worked for them in the past.

That said, both D&D and Star Wars have existing games.  In spite of (or, perhaps, even because of) their lack of success, I'd expect Bioware to steer clear of those two and pursue a different IP.

There's a lot out there they could work with.  If we limit ourselves to a fantasy IP, up-and-coming contenders could include "Pirates of the Caribbean” (while not strictly Tolkeinesque, it includes enough familiar tropes to provide many of the same benefits), Naomi Novik’s “Temeraire” novels, recently optioned for movie treatment by Peter Jackson and company, Narnia (in my opinion a bad choice for a MMOG, but certainly not worse than Star Trek), Warhammer 40k (yes, I know it’s nominally sci-fi, but it has elves, orcs, and sorcerers in it, and unlike Star Wars, if you made a game that didn’t include starships as anything more than transport, nobody familiar with the IP would bat an eye), Harry Potter (which is a worse fit for MMOGdom than Star Trek), Eragon (the first movie of which is to be released this December), Robert Jordan’s “Wheel of Time” series, George R.R. Martin’s “Game of Thrones” series, and Michael Moorcock’s “Elric” series (possibly second only to Warhammer 40k in the ease with which it could be turned into a traditional MMORPG).

I list these in order of what I, in my completely unscientific opinion, consider most likely to least, based upon their current, or impending, place in the public consciousness.  (Yes, I know the last three are almost unknown to the general public, but they are nerd favorites, and Bioware knows their market.)  I’ve got this itch in the back of my head telling me I’m forgetting something big, but I’m probably completely wrong anyway, so what does it matter?  ;)

- Brian 

[Merusk]

You're new, so you may not have heard that Warhammer already is getting an MMO.  Mythic (of Dark Age of Camelot fame) is producing that one.  For a 40k MMO to come out at any time near the WH would be.. foolish at best.

Pirates of the Carribean is also being MMO-ized already by whatever games company Disney uses (is it internal even? I don't know. )

I can't see a WoT MMO being made any time soon, as Jordan's dealing with his terminal health problems to the extent he's not even writing.  Overseeing/ contributing to such a product isn't gonna happen.


Honestly I don't think ANY IP that isn't games-based would make for a decent MMO.  To many people wanting to play the "hero" when instead they're peon #2842.  We saw this with SWG, and I expect we're going to see it with LOTR.  Bioware would be better off making a MMO based on one of their own IPs (the few that there are) or developing an entirely new one.  But of course, that doesn't make for good forum speculation.

[Jayce]

There's a lot out there they could work with.  If we limit ourselves to a fantasy IP, up-and-coming contenders could include "Pirates of the Caribbean” (while not strictly Tolkeinesque, it includes enough familiar tropes to provide many of the same benefits), Naomi Novik’s “Temeraire” novels, recently optioned for movie treatment by Peter Jackson and company, Narnia (in my opinion a bad choice for a MMOG, but certainly not worse than Star Trek), Warhammer 40k (yes, I know it’s nominally sci-fi, but it has elves, orcs, and sorcerers in it, and unlike Star Wars, if you made a game that didn’t include starships as anything more than transport, nobody familiar with the IP would bat an eye), Harry Potter (which is a worse fit for MMOGdom than Star Trek), Eragon (the first movie of which is to be released this December), Robert Jordan’s “Wheel of Time” series, George R.R. Martin’s “Game of Thrones” series, and Michael Moorcock’s “Elric” series (possibly second only to Warhammer 40k in the ease with which it could be turned into a traditional MMORPG).

You know, I never thought of Elric.  IMO it's the best idea of the bunch.  It's complete as a series(unlike Martin who I would call a close second if not for the fact that the game might influence future books and vice versa).  The culmination of the series did not preclude a game based in that world, at least at some time period.  And if all else fails and you have to retcon, the canon already includes a multiverse, so you could say that it's not the same plane as the one that took place in the book.

In fact you could view the series of books (Elric of Melnibone -> Stormbringer) as the literary equivalent of a tech demo.  You could almost distill the actual text of the books into a design document.

[SnakeCharmer]

Less swords!!!

More guns!!!!
More rifles!!!!
More space!!!!
More aliens!!!!

[d4rkj3di]

BioWare *not* flat out denying that it is Star Wars - unless they are milking it on their forums for publicity (which is ENTIRELY possible - hell, why not?).

JFYI, BioWare has a long-established policy of not commenting on rumors, whether true, partly true, false, or just plain crack-brained. That's why they never respond to the yearly "EA/MS/Atari is buying Bio!" rumor.

I don't think Atari is buying anyone. They're in deep shit.

Less posting, more coding!

[Signe]

Less swords!!!

More guns!!!!
More rifles!!!!
More space!!!!
More aliens!!!!

I agree.  I am getting tired of the same sort of fantasy games.  I'm definitely up for something different.  It doesn't necessarily have to be science fiction, just different.

Oh... and good!

[brian]

You're new, so you may not have heard that Warhammer already is getting an MMO.  Mythic (of Dark Age of Camelot fame) is producing that one.  For a 40k MMO to come out at any time near the WH would be.. foolish at best.

True.  Still, Games Workshop pushes both games in the tabletop realm simultaniously, and I assume they're calling the shots.  There's a little cross-over between the two games, but not so much that it seems to harm either one.  And there's certainly less direct competition between WH and WH40k than there would be between SWG and KotORO or DDO and DDO: Dragonlance or some such.

Pirates of the Carribean is also being MMO-ized already by whatever games company Disney uses (is it internal even? I don't know. )

That one passed entirely beneath my radar.  My bad.

I can't see a WoT MMO being made any time soon, as Jordan's dealing with his terminal health problems to the extent he's not even writing.  Overseeing/ contributing to such a product isn't gonna happen.

I'm sorry to hear that.  Not that there won't be a WoT MMOG, but that he's ailing.  I stopped following the books nearly a decade ago, and only mentioned it because I know it's still a popular series.

Honestly I don't think ANY IP that isn't games-based would make for a decent MMO.  To many people wanting to play the "hero" when instead they're peon #2842.  We saw this with SWG, and I expect we're going to see it with LOTR.  Bioware would be better off making a MMO based on one of their own IPs (the few that there are) or developing an entirely new one.  But of course, that doesn't make for good forum speculation.

I tend to agree, with the current design of MMOGs, but that's not going to stop people from pursuing IPs.  Beyond that expectation, however, the IP provides extra marketing oomph, a pre-existing backstory that doesn't need to be created, and a framework around which you can hang your design.  Fans of the IP will, as you say, be dissappointed, but they'll still move boxes at WalMart while fans of MMOGs will benefit from predifined and clear structure in the game setting.

- Brian

[Dren]

I always thought the Death Gate Cycle would be a good backdrop to base a MMO on.  There was a RPG made for it, but it just retold the story.  An MMO that used the universe and moved forward from where the books left off would be interesting. I think there were 5 worlds divided amongst elements.  The Labrinth is another I think.  2 magic weilding races, elves, dwarves, and normal humans I guess.

I'd rather they just centered around the two magic wielding races (human-like) and use the rest as backdrop for their conflict.  I've always been a proponent of less races and more flexibility amongst skills/talents/powers/etc.

[Strazos]

I'm not going to lie - whatever comes out of this, I'm going to buy it. BioWare could put their name on an empty box, and I would probably buy it, if it was a very rpetty box.

I just hope they don't squander all the confidence I place in this particular dev house. BioWare is one of the only dev houses I really love nowadays. Don't fuck things up.


And for the record, I loved Jade Empire.

[HaemishM]

My guess? Dragon Age, yeah that fantasy IP they said they were building a game on and have never really talked much about since.

EDIT: Because Dragon Age is not Dragon Empires.

[Rasix]

Dragon Age is their original IP NWN replacement.  Better mod tools, no D&D limitations, etc.

They've said plenty about it.  I really doubt they'd just decide to "MMO" it.