Internet poker experiences, one month later

[Paelos]

I finally bit the bullet a month ago and signed up with Pokerstars to start playing hold-em online. I thought I'd compile 10 of my experiences and the things I've learned as a rather newbie player to the game to help bypass the growing pains of the uninitiated.

1) Poker is addictive - In the first week I played the site pretty much solidly when I came home from work. I loved getting into tourneys and busting out players. I didn't really know what I was doing, but I didn't really care either. It was just so much fun I didn't care about playing any of the other games I was involved in. While this is the case early on, it does eventually wear out some, and if it doesn't, you need to consider backing off of it for a while and getting some help. Especially if you suck.

2) Expect to lose in the beginning - Unless you are awesome coming in, the learning curve involved in the game will make you lose money, especially if you go on tilt while playing drunk. My advice to minimize this is to never drink to excess when you are playing, and to take 10 minute breaks after each big loss. Give yourself some time to think about why you lost and learn from each mistake you make. I am still not in the black yet from my early losses, but I know now that given time I will be. I consider it an early investment in my poker education that will reap returns in the future. At the win rate I'm achieving I should accomplish breakeven at the end of the month. Then its all gravy from there.

3) Varying your type of game is a mistake early on - Find a game that you like and stick with it for a while, don't jump back and forth between many different formats. All formats have different intricacies that you must experience and learn to win at them, and if you are jumping around you can't get the feel for that game. I personally like SnG's, some like ring games, and others like tournaments. Whatever you preference, make sure that you apply some focus to what you like so you understand the game. This will of course change later on when you get better, so don't be afraid to break out of the mold once you start winning.

4) Poker books are a sound investment - $20 may seem like a lot to spend on a textbook for a cardgame, but they can be the difference between making smart calls and bad decisions when you apply the principles therein. My advice would be to buy "Hold-em" by Carson, and "Hold-em for Advanced Players" by Sklansky for starters. Then, if you like tournaments, buy "Tournament Hold-em" by Sklansky as well. Some parts are obvious and the entirity of the books will not wow you. However, you will want to make copies of the tables per position and keep them available early-on so you don't call with crap cards. Also, highlighting strategies for check-raises, bluffs, slow-plays, and semi-bluffs in the Sklansky texts are key.

5) Know when to walk away from pocket pairs - More often than not I lost big pots when I kept trying to believe my pockets were the best hand out there, even when my head was screaming at me to the contrary. It's a delusional thing that such a good starting hand could go so far south when that flush board hits and a guy goes all in. They won't stand up, and you need to bail out.

6) Make a note of loose players at the table - They are everywhere on the sites, and they make dumb mistakes. Notice the guys that are winning hands at showdown with cards you wouldn't ever play. That guy who called with a 72 off and happened to make two pair is lucky, not smart. You can crush him in the long run if he keeps making calls like that, so find him and tool him over when your AK comes along.

7) Don't bitch about the river - It's not your god-given right to win even if your cards are better to start with. If you don't like that, play Guts with your friends at home and forget about hold-em. The best starting hand doesn't always win here, and that's something you either accept or let it slowly drive you crazy. Just remember the times that the river made your set and won you the hand in a suckout when your pocket aces fall down. The moment you bitch about the river or let it piss you off is the moment you start walking down Tilt road.

8) When you are up don't get looser - Being the high stack means you have the advantage, but it doesn't mean you should start playing more cards. The cards you play should always be a function of how many people are at the table, your position, and who you think will call. Leave your stack out of the equation unless you are in the final four at a SnG. More often than not, young players get overconfident in the high stack and play more hands than they should. That's the fast track back to mediocrity. If you learn to play the high stack consistently, you can become unbeatable over time.

9) Raises are better than calls in many positions - At the very least, raises keep the BB from limping in with nut cards that could develop after the flop. At the best, you are adding value to a pot that you can easily take with a good hand. At times, simple calls are appropriate, but hold-em is a game of domination. You shouldn't be afraid to take the other players by the balls and twist when you can.

10) Go all-in on your terms - If you aren't sure about an all-in, don't ever call one, especially if its coming from a player in an early position. Consider the factors at play along with your hand, as well as whether or not cards have flopped yet. Its much better to call an all-in with strong cards before the flop than after if it didn't help you at all. Remember than your pocket pairs might not hold up afterwards, but before they are great. Just make sure you never call for the hell of it, or to see what the other guy has even if you are ahead. That's the fool's play.

That's basically it for now, I'd encourage anyone else to add there comments if they wish, and I'd also like anyone that has been on the fence to get out there and start playing for the good times.

[Rodent]

I'm not that good at it myself but learning the odds helps out a great deal. More often then not the player who knows what his % to win a hand before and after the flop walks away the winner from a table.

I'd write more but I'm actually on my way to a night of Hold'em at the casino. Wish me alot of tourists!

[Paelos]

Yes I neglected to point out that odds do play a big part, but the fish often get bogged down in odds and play overly tight. That's usually when I start to rake them over the coals with the big stack. Case in point, don't wait for the big hand, play the best hand.

[Ironwood]

 

 I am still not in the black yet from my early losses, but I know now that given time I will be.

Really, really tempted to stop reading there....

Danger, Will Robinson.

[Arcadian Del Sol]

The best advice I give anyone that wants to get involved in any kind of card gambling:

Count The Cards.

Its just that simple.

[Nebu]

7) Don't bitch about the river - It's not your god-given right to win even if your cards are better to start with. If you don't like that, play Guts with your friends at home and forget about hold-em. The best starting hand doesn't always win here, and that's something you either accept or let it slowly drive you crazy. Just remember the times that the river made your set and won you the hand in a suckout when your pocket aces fall down. The moment you bitch about the river or let it piss you off is the moment you start walking down Tilt road.

Thank you for posting this!

I just wish that more people took this one to heart.  I've been playing poker online and in casinos for years and find that I will walk away from a good table if there are too many whiners.  Since I have no delusions about becoming a professional, I typically play with the hope of having some fun while not losing my shirt.  Too many people think that they are the next World Series of Poker champion.

[Paelos]

Yeah that's my biggest problem, the whiners. I was playing in a 250 person satillite tournament with some bigger stacks at my table. The action was getting hot, so I went all-in with a KTs. It's not a great hand for that at all, but I was expecting no action. When the call came down, I thought I was toast, but a KT came up on the flop. The other guy was holding pocket Js or something. He proceeded to call me a horrible player and told me I didn't deserve that hand. Funny thing is we both ended up in the top 10 of the touranment and advanced in the satellite. I told him to go ahead and let it ruin his day if he liked, but he wasn't going to see me saying luck didn't play a part.

The simple fact is, people who are lucky can beat people who are good some of the time, but not ALL of the time. He caught me with my pants down once and I walked away, but he used that one hand to make a commentary about my entire playstyle. Keep that kind of stuff to yourself and you end up not getting an ulcer from a game. Needless to say he had to eat massive amounts of crow when I was the high stack in the tournament on his table.

[Arcadian Del Sol]

Question that begs a very short and uncomplicated answer: What exactly is Texas Holdem?

I'm not looking for a 30 page tutorial on how to PLAY it, I want to know the basic structure.

[Dark Vengeance]

Question that begs a very short and uncomplicated answer: What exactly is Texas Holdem?

I'm not looking for a 30 page tutorial on how to PLAY it, I want to know the basic structure.

Each player gets two cards, and the entire table gets 5 community cards. The player who can make the best 5-card hand (using their cards, plus any of the community cards) is the winner.

You bet after getting your two cards. Then the dealer turns over the first 3 community cards (aka the flop) and you bet again. Then the dealer turns over the 4th community card (aka the turn or 4th street) and you bet again. Then the dealer turns over the last community card (aka the river or 5th street) and you bet again. If two or more players call the final bet, the cards are turned over, and the best hand takes the pot.

Normal ranking of poker hands apply, and there are traditionally no wild cards in Texas Holdem.

Bring the noise.
Cheers..............

[Paelos]

Two cards are dealt to each player face down, followed by an initial round of betting. Instead of antes, in most cases the two players immediately to the left of the dealer put in bets called "The Blinds". These bets an amount determined by the type of game and double in value from the first to second player. So for example, in a .25/.50 game, the first player to the left puts in .25 and the second player puts in .50 without seeing their cards. That .50 then becomes the standard to call if you want to keep playing.

After the initial round, there is "The flop" which is 3 community cards dealt to the middle, after which players bet again. Then there is "The turn" which is the fourth community card, and again betting. Then lastly "The River" which is the 5th community card, and then betting. At the end the player that can make the best poker hand of 5 cards out of his two down cards and the 5 community cards wins the pot. Sometimes hands simply come down to who has the high card, thus making the two down cards very integral to the game.

[WayAbvPar]

Sometimes hands simply come down to who has the high card, thus making the two down cards very integral to the game.

And sometimes the 5 community cards are the best hand, and everyone left splits the pot (happened to me Saturday night at the casino- had 93o in my big blind and scooped 1/5 of the pot when the board was 88877...made a $1 profit!).

[Margalis]

In a tournament setting, the fact is the winner always has get lucky. Skill plays a huge role, but the winner of any tournament will 99% of the time gotten some favorable breaks, or at least not gotten screwed.

Any time all your money is in you should be mentally prepared to lose.

Yesterday I advanced in a PL Omaha 8 super-satellite. If I make top 9 in the next one I will be in the WCOOP.

[Murgos]

In a tournament setting, the fact is the winner always has get lucky. Skill plays a huge role, but the winner of any tournament will 99% of the time gotten some favorable breaks, or at least not gotten screwed.

So that's T.J. Cloutier's secret to having won 60 some odd major tourney's, hes just really lucky!  Of all card games poker has the least influence of luck,  some claim that of all the variations of poker Texas Hold'em is one of the least prone to the vagaries of luck.  Many people think this is what makes it so appealing.  The ones that don't think that are generally called 'fish'.

"Oh boy I better stay in till the River I might get Lucky!"

[El Gallo]

The fact remains that no matter how good you are, you will not win a major tournament without getting lucky.  Even playing perfectly, you will likely be all in a couple times on hands where you have, say, a 30% chance of getting busted.  Skill is important, but once you have a basic level of competence, luck is by far the largest determinant of any particular tournament.  Very good players win more often, but it takes many, many, many tournaments for the good players to seperate themselves from the bad ones.

It's not like chess, where the better player will win 99 out of a 100 games.  Hell, look at the WSoP.  A lot of relative noobs win.  The 2k3 one that they play ad nauseum on ESPN came down to a guy who had played online for a couple years vs a guy who was an Omaha specialist.

[Paelos]

I think its not so much the presence of good luck that he was referring to, as much as the absence of bad luck. You can have the better hands and still lose to bad luck suckouts. You can have worse hands and win the same way. The players playing the worse hands are very lucky that their bad moves didn't catch them with their pants down. The players playing the smart way are lucky nobody upset the big hands or called a major bluff with nothing and hit. Games of chance like cards inherantly involve luck, and even the greatest players know that. It's just that the greatest players have learned over time through experience exactly how much risk they are willing to put in the hands of luck to be profitable. That tends to make all the difference.

[Dark Vengeance]

Let's not forget that an unknown with poker skill can be a huge threat at the WSOP. Luck does play a factor, sure....but moreso is about understanding the odds, decision-making, and timing.

In particular, someone the professionals see as "dead money" is going to be dangerous, because they slip in under the radar. Guys with sound poker skills, a set of brass balls, and a decent poker face (with no obvious tells) are always a threat.

Not surprisingly, when the relative noobs get a win, it becomes that much harder for them to get another one. Same goes with the established pros that have never won the main event at the WSOP. Once they get a reputation as a player, players tend to respect them a bit more, and aren't quite as daring playing against them. Imagine yourself playing heads up against Chan, or Doyle Brunson, or Amarillo Slim....odds are that you'd take them a lot more seriously than they'd take you. And your play would reflect that level of respect that you'd afford them as past world champs.

Compare that to how you play when online, or at a casino, or playing your drinking buddies in a home game. That's why guys like Moneymaker are such a threat....at least until they make a name for themselves.

Bring the noise.
Cheers............

[Murgos]

...It's just that the greatest players have learned over time through experience exactly how much risk they are willing to put in the hands of luck to be profitable. That tends to make all the difference.

Interestingly, that particular knack is referred to as Skill.

[Margalis]

So that's T.J. Cloutier's secret to having won 60 some odd major tourney's, hes just really lucky!  Of all card games poker has the least influence of luck,  some claim that of all the variations of poker Texas Hold'em is one of the least prone to the vagaries of luck.

I was just reading one of his books last night, thanks.

Many people get lucky and lose. ONE person gets lucky and wins. But the fact is, if you win, you got lucky. Everyone gets lucky once in a while. So yes, winning a lot of tournaments in the long run is skill. That doesn't negate what I said.

In his book he says as much several times. According to Cloutier, when Chan won his first WSOP he got in a race situation 12 times towards the end and won all 12. Had he lost all 12, he wouldn't have won, end of story.

Cloutier has plenty of examples in his book of him making the right play and losing, and people making the wrong play and losing. He says in the book that anyone can win one tournament; what makes someone a champ is a history of winning.

I would go on but clearly you know nothing about tournaments. It's not like what I said was controversial, every pro will tell you the same thing. Tourney win = skill + luck.

Edit: In his book Cloutier also specifically states that to win you have to win race situations. In fact he goes farther than that. He states that to win you have to win race situations where AK is involved. His exact words were something like "to win a tourney you have to win with AK and win against AK."

[Pig Destroyer]

So that's T.J. Cloutier's secret to having won 60 some odd major tourney's, hes just really lucky!  Of all card games poker has the least influence of luck,  some claim that of all the variations of poker Texas Hold'em is one of the least prone to the vagaries of luck.

I was just reading one of his books last night, thanks.

Many people get lucky and lose. ONE person gets lucky and wins. But the fact is, if you win, you got lucky. Everyone gets lucky once in a while. So yes, winning a lot of tournaments in the long run is skill. That doesn't negate what I said.

In his book he says as much several times. According to Cloutier, when Chan won his first WSOP he got in a race situation 12 times towards the end and won all 12. Had he lost all 12, he wouldn't have won, end of story.

Cloutier has plenty of examples in his book of him making the right play and losing, and people making the wrong play and losing. He says in the book that anyone can win one tournament; what makes someone a champ is a history of winning.

I would go on but clearly you know nothing about tournaments. It's not like what I said was controversial, every pro will tell you the same thing. Tourney win = skill + luck.

Edit: In his book Cloutier also specifically states that to win you have to win race situations. In fact he goes farther than that. He states that to win you have to win race situations where AK is involved. His exact words were something like "to win a tourney you have to win with AK and win against AK."

Absolutely, unless you win a couple "coin-flip" situations, you cannot win a big tournament.  You HAVE to get lucky sometimes, the random nature of cards dictates that it be this way.

[UD_Delt]

Well since this seems to be the new poker thread I have a question.

Has anyone tried the $20+2 Sit & Go's on Poker Stars? How do you think they compare to the $10+1's?

The reason I ask is I have decided to try a Sit&Go bankroll challenge where I always play at bankroll/10. So, at $110 - $220 I play $11's and at $220+ I play$22's. I started at $110 and quickly built up to $220. I've now been stuck bouncing back and forth between the $22's and $11's for 3 months. I've played 5 of the $22's and 4 of those I finished on the bubble (4th) and the 5th I played horribly and bounced early.

I know it's a small sample size so far but it seems (to me at least) that the play at the $22's is significantly better than the $11's. I'm wondering if I've just had some short term bad luck or if I've possibly found my skill cap.

Anyone have any comments?

[Paelos]

In my experience the $20 games are much increased in skill level from the $10. Basically I think $10 and $5 SnGs are no different, and I've had similar experiences in both. I've played probably 6 $20 games and been rocked in each one. They play a more varied style of check raising and hard bluffs. They play fewer bad hands and are typically much more passive/aggressive on the good ones. They suck in people trying to steal pots with nothing when they've made a set on a pocket pair. In essence, its not that they are much better, its just that the old tactics in the $10 game that would push people around wont work in those games and you'll pay for it.

It's basically a whole new learning curve.

[WayAbvPar]

In my experience the $20 games are much increased in skill level from the $10. Basically I think $10 and $5 SnGs are no different, and I've had similar experiences in both.

That has been my general experience as well. $10 might be a quarter-step tougher than $5 on the average, but the difference is negligible most of the time. $20 are a different story- my success there is much lower (did win the only $30 I ever played though!). If you are beating the $10 regularly, it won't hurt to mix some $20 or even $30 in. Things take another jump skill-wise at $50, as I understand it.

[Abagadro]

I can't do a damn thing at Stars. Treading water forever.  I finally cashed and am exclusive at Party now. Much better results. Don't know if that is a comment on Stars or on my play.

[Dren]

Just a comment from the sidelines:  I've been watching more poker and getting into poker games with my buddies while reading about all of your exploits, good stuff.  One thing I've noticed IS the wild and crazy behavior when there aren't enough stakes at risk.

Case in point, that Stars playing Poker TV show (can't remember the real name of the show.)  While some of them play really well and others do not, I've noticed when it comes down to the end of the game, they start going nuts like going all in on a 73 different suits before the flop!  I swear they just give up at some point because basically it isn't their money and they won't win anything except for a charity at the end.

Then I watch the real poker games in Vegas and it is totally different.  They actually play like I think it should be played.  Poker is such a gutsy game.  If you play for low stakes it isn't all that fun.  If you play for high stakes, it rocks for fun, but you can really lose your ass in the end.

Carry on...

[Murgos]

Case in point, that Stars playing Poker TV show (can't remember the real name of the show.)  While some of them play really well and others do not, I've noticed when it comes down to the end of the game, they start going nuts like going all in on a 73 different suits before the flop!

Toward the end of a tournament when the blinds are HUGE and and it's head to head action you pretty much want to see every flop unless your hand is a real stinker.  Remeber the less people on the table the better a mediocre hand is.

[daveNYC]

Case in point, that Stars playing Poker TV show (can't remember the real name of the show.)  While some of them play really well and others do not, I've noticed when it comes down to the end of the game, they start going nuts like going all in on a 73 different suits before the flop!  I swear they just give up at some point because basically it isn't their money and they won't win anything except for a charity at the end.

It's something like Celebrety Poker Challange.

On the All In thing though, I was watching the World Series of Poker thing on TV and it was the last two people in the tourney.  One had a huge chip advantage and the other guy just kept going all in.  He would just look at his cards and go all in every hand.  Crazy, but it worked.  Except for the last time he tried it.

[Paelos]

I need a bit of advice. Last night I was playing at the $10 SnGs on Stars and I kept busting out fourth because of EXTREMELY tight/aggressive opponents. The problem was that when I got a hand I could never make any money on it, and when I tried to bluff these bastards would raise up on me. Like I'd be on the button, see an opening, raise the pot and get re-raised for big chips and have to fold out. I just got frustrated and went back down to $6 turbos where I placed first and third.

Any strategies you like against the tight tables or the seemingly tight agressive players?

[Abagadro]

If you are on the bubble and it is no limit, there really isn't any reason to just raise. At any point in the tourney,  if the raise is even close to about 35% of your stack, just go all-in. On the bubble, if you are going to play at all, just go all in.  People will need better hands to call you and will tighten up trying to get into the money. Just steal the blinds and put pressure on smaller stacks. The only exception is if you have marginal but playable hand and the only opponant left to act is a huge stack advantage over you and who has a propensity to call. Then you shoud just muck it.

Raising and folding to a reraise is a disaster on the bubble. Don't ever do it. Either commit to the hand and go all in (or trap if it is a monster) or just  dump it.

[UD_Delt]

Well I'm glad to know I'm not imagining a large jump in skill level from the $10's - $20's. That gives me some reassurance. And the fact that I've been pretty consistently coming in 4th tells me that it's only a matter of time before I cash in one of the $20's. It's just frustrating that I've blown about $110 on those and haven't cashed yet and in the same time frame I've won $110 on the $10 tables...

Now I have to decide if overall I can make as good of a profit at the $20 tables. Otherwise when looking just at long term profit I may just be better off sticking to the $10 tables. Then again that's a recipe for stagnation as I will never have a real desire to improve... Decisions, decisions.

[Nebu]

Well...

With the buzz here, I decided to open an account on Poker Stars tonight and played in 5 10+1 sit-n-go tourneys.  It was an education... I never realized how tight I play, but it rapidly became appearant .  Here's how I did:

Tourney:
1. 7th
2. 6th
3. 3rd (in the money)
4. 4th (GAH!)
5. 2nd (was the chip leader entering head-2-head and got crap cards)

Overall not bad.  I got 25 fpp's and ended up only losing $10 over about 5h of poker.  

Observations:  Unless you get pooched with a great hand, it's pretty easy to stay in the top 6.  The key is managing your chips and knowing when to jump on antes by playing aggressive.  I only finished 7th my first tourney because my poket aces got beat by pocket 8's that hit an 8 on the river.  I congratulated the guy nicely and moved on.  I was surprised that most of the people I played with kept their cool.  In only one tourney did someone blow their top and it was because they lost on a dumb play.  

Finishing in the money was tougher.  I tried to wait out opportunities, but many of the other players were pretty decent.  Catching them trying to buy a pot was the best way for me to increase my stack... luck on the river also bailed me out twice, but I think that's true for most of us.  Having played in casinos, I do miss having the ability to watch my opponent's tells. I have to admit that I enjoyed it more than I thought.  Online is a nice way of playing when the mood strikes you.  

I have no delusions of making money at this... I'll be just happy to lose my money slowly enough to get some solid entertainment.

[Pig Destroyer]

I deposited $300 into Pokerstars ver the weekend to take advantage of their 20% bonus right now.  It was an education.

Recently, I've been utterly kicking the fuck out of the $10 SnGs at Party.  To say that didn't happen at 'Stars would be a mild understatement.  

It's very difficult to play my hyper-aggressive style on Stars when you start out with so many chips.  I find my bluffs get called down much more often because people figure they can aford to lose a Pot-Sized bet when they have $1500 in chips.

I dunno, I'm trying to adjust.  But it's been rough heh.

[Abagadro]

How was vegas?

[Pig Destroyer]

It was awesome.  I wrote up a trip report on the front page of WTFman.com.

[Paelos]

I've started playing 2 Table $5.50 SnG's for the better payoffs and because I rarely miss making it to the final table. Last night I placed 1st and 2nd, for a net profit of $52 in less than 3 hours. I must say, I like the risk/reward of 2 Tables if you can consistently make it to the final table and have a shot at the money. They pay four places also, which is a big help if you are any good.

The one I won was a great story. I was down to my last $1000, and the leader was close to 10K. Desperation mode kicks in as I go all-in on pocket 8s. Leader calls me with KQo and doesn't catch, so I double up. Next hand I get ATs, all-in again. Get called again by the leader with KQs, and I catch the A. Now at 4K, I start playing my game and make it to 6K. The guy in second place goes all-in with 5K as I catch pockets Qs, so I follow. He has AKo, and catches the A on the flop, but coupled with a Q, so I make my set and knock him out. As the chip leader I proceed to bleed out the third place guy until he finishes and face off against the previous leader with a 2-1 chip lead. After a short while he goes all-in after a flop of A,6,J. He goes all-in, I call. He flips over A6, I flip over AJ...Game over. I was stunned at the comeback and my luck in general in that game, but it was a memory that lets me know you have to be at zero before you are ever out of a game.

[El Gallo]

Not internet-related, but if you find yourself in southwestern New York, check out the Seneca Allegeny [they spell funny up that way] Casino.   Physically, the place is a dump (they are building an actual casino and are using temporary buildings now), but the play there is the very definition of loose/passive.  I was up there over the weekend (my in-laws live up that way).  You see 6 or 7 people calling to the river and nobody raising over and over again.  I was at a table for about 6 hours and there were literally less than 10 hands that did not go to a showdown.  Nuts.

The best is when you buy a free card and people bitch at you for beating them on the river.  Twice I had AXs on the button, flop the 4-flush, raise on the flop, turn is a blank, they check around to me, I check, river finishes the flush, someone bets, couple callers, I raise, they call and cry bullshit because they got rivered.  Twice.

I am not a great player by ANY stretch of the imagination, but if you have even a basic idea what to do, you can't lose.

The downside is that you can't get a game higher than $5/$10, at least on a Sunday.