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Author Topic: Challenges facing MMOs: AGC 2006 Presentation  (Read 4238 times)
Venkman
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on: September 08, 2006, 08:24:00 AM

This is longer than I intended, but there was a lot covered in the presentation. Thought ya'all might be interested. I would have just tacked it onto the much better coverage the staff here has been giving, but they didn't create a topic of this one yet :)

At the Austin Game Conference this year, Jon Grande of Sigil Games and Rich Vogel of BioWare Austin hosted a session entitled "'New' Challenges Facing MMOG Development". Overall, I felt they cast a blind eye to a number of emerging trends, but the stuff they covered about the "core" marketplace (basically as defined by diku-inspired games) was pretty good. And insightful.

The presentation was about 45 minutes of talking and 15 minutes of Q&A. The talking portion was supported by a Powerpoint show, which Jon has hosted on his Team page at Sigil Games. You can read that presentation at whim. It says stuff that's fairly straight forward. But when they were describing individual points on the slide, I found I disagreed with them about half the time (mentally, of course. I wasn't raising my hand to argue with them or anything...)

Industry Standard UI
 Early on, the talk was about capturing users and giving them a fun and easy to learn experience. Common sense rule there, but they went on to say that perhaps WoW's UI should become an industry standard UI by which all MMORPGs follow.

I can appreciate why they say that. After all, this is two companies arguably working on games that will follow the same methodology that WoW followed. Hotkeys, macros, chat box, yadda yadda.

But my problem with this statement is that this assumes the entire genre going forward is going to focus on derivative EQ-style experiences. By itself that is the death of innovation, because this assumes the same game mechanic throughout at a time when the very breadth of this genre is replete with examples to the contrary. But I'll go more into that below when this comes up again.

PC is on the way out
 And Consoles are on the rise. Makes sense, again, except it flies in the face with emerging platform independence trends. Designing an MMO for a console is very different from a PC. Keyboards are not the norm. Internet connectivity may be there but the publisher of that Console may have an oppressive business requirement preventing things like easy subscriptions or item sale-based revenue flows. Bringing diku to consoles is easy. Making it as relevant and affordable is something else.

Further, with computers lasting longer and being passed throughout the household as new ones are bought, we can expect PCs to be around, and relevant for gaming, for quite a few more years at least.

You need to choose a platform to start with, but even AAA single-player title developers can't afford to not consider multiple platforms. MMORPGs can afford that even less.

Oh, and they see that Brick & Mortar retailers will be critical partners for the short term (next few years at least). I tend to agree. We all talk digital distribution, but it's still young, and frought with different types of challenges that traditional retailers don't have. The big benefit also is that traditional retail comes with embedded secondary advertising. They want people walking around their store, so feature items that grab attention and make impulse purchases. The web does not easily facilitate impulse purchasing for the average consumer, outside of closed systems like iTunes.

Import Single Player Developers
 Here is where I completely agreed with them. The point they made was that the industry has long been mired in conventions invented during the MUD days. The focus on resource gathering (whether plants or gear) has overshadowed the need to have fun doing it. So they recommend adding single player game developers to the core design and development team so that their insights into having a momentarily fun experience can be integrated with the thought process.

This is important, and we're seeing it already, with games like Tabula Rasa and Age of Conan escewing normal diku conventional UIs in favor of something more engaging to play. In realtime. They are both largely still about resource gathering, but wrapped in a narrative shell and with a different UI to prevent the "more of the sameness".

Trade-offs
 They have been around awhile so have seen and discussed the same stuff we all see and discuss. One slide in particular talked about setting realistic goals by understanding what is truly important for launch and making trade-offs as a result:

  • Breadth vs Depth 
  • Quality vs Scope     
  • Polish vs Additions 
Each game will want something different, but their opinion is tha you focus on Quality, Polish and a deep experience over a broad one. It's hard to argue with this point, particularly in light of history. Notable quote from the slides:

Quote
Build a simple by deep game

Build enough content at launch that people cannot see the horizon

Get to playing the game as soon as possible, even if that means using middleware

And: get your entire company, full of cross-functional specialists to play it. Gauge their reactions. If they're not logging in on their off time, if they're dreading the weekly build play session, if they make excuses, then there's something wrong with the fun factor of it. This is really important. People complain about not playing their own games enough, so really need to understand why. If it's not fun, it's not fun. Fix it before the public sees it because otherwise they're just going to point out the same thing publicly and loudly. Notable quote:

Quote
How do you know when it's fun? When you get your designers and artists playing it instead of wanting to go home

Do this by building "vertical slices" of the game, experiences that can be had, to test out the game play. Game systems can be built in parallel, but concepts, notably for UI and motivations, need to be tested, even if built separately from the core system. Build this vertical slice many times for every system. Test throughout development.

And of course, give yourself more time to build and test. Because that's easy...

Item Sales and Innovation
 They, like many, see this as a Panacea for future revenue flows. That's fine of course, but this is where I wanted to talk about innovation again.

Item sales ingame, as defined by veteran developers almost require a diku-inspired experience. The above assumes the future is all diku really, which is myopic in my opinion. And wierd, coming from companies that fear comparisons to WoW more than anything (because their games are/will-be similar in mechanic).

The point is to differentiate. If you sell weapons, and they sell weapons, and your game which isn't out yet is similar to theirs which launched two years ago, therefore targeting the same player, they win. Why try and make the same game then? To tweak what's been tweaked indefinitely?

That'll work for some, but others think differently. From the games mentioned above to Stargate Worlds to Star Trek Online, to web-based MMOs to mobile-based MMOs, there are a lot more people not copying EQ than those that actively are. In my opinion, WoW capped that course of action.

MMOGCharts Myopia
 The blind spot I think they have though, predictable given their history, is with the emergence of web-based MMOs. By some estimates, it's not WoW that's the biggest MMO in the world, but rather Mapplestory (UK-based, coming to US). But its business is different, it's barrier to entry almost as low as possible, and the qualities of the game play just that different.

I call this "MMOGCharts Myopia" because it seems as though people only talk about the games that hit that chart. Good for SirBruce and his consulting gig, but bad for companies that want to think beyond the 9,000lb gorilla that is WoW. The basis of comparison on those charts is, to me, largely mitigated in relevance by just how many games do not use traditional subscription accounts/we-hate-RMT approach to reporting and gauging their own success. Given emerging trends, I see less games coming with that traditionalist approach too.

Conclusion
 Overall a great presentation. I disagreed with about half of what they said, but it was all very intelligent and spoken through real experience so valuable all the same.
stray
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Reply #1 on: September 08, 2006, 09:04:20 AM

Industry Standard UI

[...]

But my problem with this statement is that this assumes the entire genre going forward is going to focus on derivative EQ-style experiences. By itself that is the death of innovation, because this assumes the same game mechanic throughout at a time when the very breadth of this genre is replete with examples to the contrary. But I'll go more into that below when this comes up again.

Yeah, exactly. I don't understand how they could miss that or not think it through.

Besides, quite a few people who play WoW don't even like WoW's UI. There are better UI alternatives coming from the WoW community itself (for example, Nurfed's HUD addon and it's derivatives).
Fargull
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Reply #2 on: September 08, 2006, 09:44:00 AM

Good read Darniaq,

I am not sure I agree with your sentiment on the standardized around WOW UI though.  One of the things WOW did with the UI is allow for full customization by the EU and then cherry picked what everyone was using from the user derived and built it into the standard.  THAT is a huge positive in my book.  If those qualities are what was ment as standard, then I am all for it.

"I have come to believe that a great teacher is a great artist and that there are as few as there are any other great artists. Teaching might even be the greatest of the arts since the medium is the human mind and spirit." John Steinbeck
edlavallee
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Reply #3 on: September 08, 2006, 10:03:04 AM

I agree with Fargull here, because the collective population has many more thought cycles and compounded creativity than your paid creative staff. Create a way to allow for unexpected innovation and then find a way to integrate it into your core product.

Zipper Zee - space noob
stray
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Reply #4 on: September 08, 2006, 10:06:38 AM

UI and mechanics completely go hand in hand. WoW's UI might be good for the game it's interfacing with, but it doesn't make any sense to apply it elsewhere. Just like it doesn't make sense to put a Windows "Start" Button on Mac OS X.

One game could have completely different defensive actions for your character, not based on rolls, but on tumbling, jumping, shield blocking, etc.. You'd need a different interface for that. One game could implement an entirely different crit system, based on preceding combo attacks, armor sundering, or positioning. Things would have to work out differently in that case. One game's healing gameplay could be entirely based around Aura/AoE heals, like the ones you see in CoH. Another game could done in the first person point of view (FPS or otherwise), and things would have to be adjusted for that. Another game could have swinging ropes you'd have to catch to cross obstacles (ala Pitfall), another where you pilot spaceships or jets, another with the target platform being consoles gamepads -- What use is WoW's UI for that?

The list could go on.

And even then, if there was a game that was similarly Diku based as WoW is, and behaved like WoW more or less, I still wouldn't necessarily want WoW's UI. There could always be something better.

[edit]

Geez. The more I think about it, the more I can't help but think these guys came up with this idea as they were doing this presentation. That it was improvised.

What if....Someone finally made a game with features as mundane as directional aiming and targeting?

Do people really not want that? Do they really want the future of mmo's to resort to (or stagnate in) the lowest common denominator of interactive game experiences? Then put a WoW interface on it, I guess.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2006, 10:46:28 AM by Stray »
JoeTF
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Reply #5 on: September 08, 2006, 01:21:24 PM

On MMOGCharts Myopia:
You're forgetting about one little tiny thing - income. Mapplestory might have ten gazillions times bigger playerbase than WOW, but revenue-wise they have nothing. Every game on Brice list yields monthly income counted in millions of dollars, while browser based games would make least one order of magnitude less.
Industry Standard UI:
I disagree with your disagreement. There isn't single AAA mmorpg that would benefit from different UI. Seeing other mmorpgs, I'm most convinced that you just cannot make it better than WOW did.
Item Sales and Innovation:
A while ago I counted total monthly sales of EVE:Online ISK on ebay. It was around 150,000$. Compare that with at least 2,000,000$ they get form subscriptions. Remember, that EVE is an unique mmorpg where content is only ISK limited - a paradise for gold farmers.
Lantyssa
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Reply #6 on: September 08, 2006, 01:41:51 PM

If WoW's interface is so perfect, why have people altered it?

It won't fit every game and it certainly won't fit every person.  The option to customize it is perhaps the one thing that should be copied, and I can envision a game design where even that is not desired.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Sairon
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Reply #7 on: September 08, 2006, 02:26:32 PM

Being able to customize the UI is smart, but it does come with a price. You have to closely monitor the framework you provide because people will try their best to abuse it. For example in WoW, consider decursive, I don't know if it's still present but it trivializes debuff removal to the point where debuffing becomes vastly underpowered. I don't know if decursive is still around and functional, but there's a truckload of mods in WoW which alters balance way to much, to the point where being in the know about mods is important to be competitive.
Venkman
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Reply #8 on: September 08, 2006, 03:16:03 PM

the benefits of WoW's extensibility is awesome. That should become standard. But my point (and as Stray summarized even better) is that if a game is not using dice adjudication on top of player actions, then the UI, as a function of play, is going to be different. So keep the extensiibility but realize your game shouldn't need to be designed around 10 action keys, six party members, an HP and mana bar and buff slots. If you force yourself to DAoWoW UI, you're making a similar game.

On MMOGCharts Myopia:
You're forgetting about one little tiny thing - income. Mapplestory might have ten gazillions times bigger playerbase than WOW, but revenue-wise they have nothing.
Oh? While I agree that MMOGcharts shows a nice tidy predictable monthly income per game, you know that in almost all cases you can not simply take the number of subscribers and multiply it by the monthly subscription in your particular region. You can't multiple $14.99 by 7mil and know how much Blizzard rakes in, for example.

But that's not even the most important point. What is important is that this basis for comparison is only one of many business models MMOGcharts and the data collected behind it simply can't integrate and report effectively. How do you explain how much money, say, Neopets makes when there's no fee but rather a whole bunch of integrated revenue streams from sub-licensed zones and banner ads? And how do you integrate Space Cowboy which does have active accounts but makes it's money from item sales? And what about Guild Wars which has millions of accounts but no subscribers?

The Charts are limited to only those two dozen games that operate on the flat-tax approach to user account management. But this is at a time when the hundreds of games out there all within successful business models are not using that approach. I call it "myopia" because if you go by the Charts, you're going to force yourself into thinking it's diku or nothing. And that means wondering whether you can exist with WoW.
stray
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Reply #9 on: September 08, 2006, 03:19:15 PM

Industry Standard UI:
I disagree with your disagreement. There isn't single AAA mmorpg that would benefit from different UI. Seeing other mmorpgs, I'm most convinced that you just cannot make it better than WOW did.

That's a pretty strange assessment coming from an Eve player. Or is that not "AAA" to you? I think it is, both in sub numbers, as well as production value.

SWG (pre NGE and NGE) wouldn't benefit from it. Especially the Crafting interface and Jump to Lightspeed.

FFXI

Matrix Online (AAA at least in terms of money wasted on it lol) definitely wouldn't benefit. Combat is carried out in a completely different manner than something like WoW.

Anyways, triple AAA titles aside, my main gripe here is that an interface is never a thing in and of itself. An interface interfaces with something else (i.e. underlying functions) -- and it's that something else that's the important thing. To try and make a "standard UI" is to try and make all other games conform to the underlying functions and behavior of WoW -- and that isn't a good thing (whether WoW is fun or not).

Games function in all kinds of different ways. They can not (not "should not") have the same interface. This would be, like I said, trying to put a Windows Start Bar in OS X (which doesn't have any of the same underlying mechanisms for automated menu generation). It'd be like putting an iTunes interface on a refrigerator or a steering wheel on a toilet bowl.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2006, 03:22:03 PM by Stray »
Margalis
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Reply #10 on: September 08, 2006, 04:24:18 PM

Well said. Interface is the window into the functionality. Different functionality = different interface.

The IPod has a cool interface, maybe we should use that same interface on a toaster, a car, and a MMORPG. Obviously games that are similar can have similar UIs, but you can't have standard UIs without standard features. In a game where you aim for real or swing your sword for real why do I have hotkeys again?

---

I can think of some more challenges:

Awful developers.
Awful producers.
People who talk a good game and can't produce anything.

All these stupid conferences end up being the same thing over and over. A bunch of guys who are responsible for all kinds of fuck-ups say all the right things, then go fuck up in the same way again.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
sinij
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WWW
Reply #11 on: September 08, 2006, 07:52:18 PM

But my problem with this statement is that this assumes the entire genre going forward is going to focus on derivative EQ-style experiences. By itself that is the death of innovation, because this assumes the same game mechanic throughout at a time when the very breadth of this genre is replete with examples to the contrary. But I'll go more into that below when this comes up again.

At least they are not cloning Sims Online or somesuch... my biggest fear was that Sims Online did not crush and burn and we got locked into a decade of trying to clone it.

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
tkinnun0
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Reply #12 on: September 09, 2006, 01:11:31 AM

In a game where you aim for real or swing your sword for real why do I have hotkeys again?

Does your game have spells (aka activatable skills, buffs, debuffs, shouts, songs, different weapons, throwables)? Then don't force me to do Select Spell then Activate (I'm looking at you, Oblivion) or grade me on my frame rate and hand-eye coordination (I'm looking at you, Black and White), just give me hotkeys.
stray
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Reply #13 on: September 09, 2006, 06:21:13 AM

You're blaming an RTS for having hand-eye coordination and not having hotkeys?

:shakes head:
Venkman
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Reply #14 on: September 09, 2006, 07:11:07 AM

Hotkeys are good for making something happen right now. They're not good for holding something for a period of time and then activating, unless you only want two actions (ala SWG). Oblivion, to me, could have used hotkeys. B&W though, different animal. I didn't care for the UI there much, but I don't think slapping WoW on it would have helped much either.
tkinnun0
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Reply #15 on: September 11, 2006, 05:52:08 AM

My Black and White comment was a bit ambiguous. To cast a fireball in B&W, you need to draw a gesture with the mouse (a spiral, I think it was). The recognition algorithm was affected by your framerate and if the game didn't recognize your gesture, the spell fizzled. Now, this might be "innovative" and "immersive", but on a sheer straightforwardness-scale it was clearly inferior to good old hotkeys.

What I don't get is the pining for something more than hotkeys. If your input devices are a keyboard and a mouse and you peel away at a game long enough then you are left with hotkeys, because press-a-button-and-something-happens is just the simplest control you can have with them.
bhodi
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No lie.


Reply #16 on: September 11, 2006, 07:13:48 AM

which is one of the big reasons I hated eve.
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