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MrHat
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Reply #35 on: July 12, 2004, 05:06:51 PM

Quote from: El Gallo


Considering how easy it is to get back up and running after you die, you pretty much need to have some penalty for PvP death.  Otherwise, you are right back where you died, at full health and mana, a minute after you die, because there are respawn points everywhere.  It is impossible to have any territory control with that situation.  Some kind of penalty needs to happen, whether it be making you respawn way back in your race's garveyard, a timeout, or whatever.


Make a Ritual involving 3 Paladins or 3 Shaman and call it "Desecration".  It desecrates the graveyard so that only the dead from one side can spawn there.

Edit: Spelling is hard.
WayAbvPar
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Reply #36 on: July 12, 2004, 05:47:22 PM

Quote from: HaemishM
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAA!!!




I do not know, but as you can probably tell, my bet's on "No."


I can see it now...narrow path, giant high level character, teeming mob of lower level critters, highbie goes AFK and watches the carnage as the lowbies he followed get torn to ribbons with no escape route.

Wasn't there an old school EQ dungeon where this was possible? It sounds familiar.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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Rasix
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Reply #37 on: July 12, 2004, 05:48:54 PM

Quote from: WayAbvPar
Quote from: HaemishM
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAA!!!




I do not know, but as you can probably tell, my bet's on "No."


I can see it now...narrow path, giant high level character, teeming mob of lower level critters, highbie goes AFK and watches the carnage as the lowbies he followed get torn to ribbons with no escape route.

Wasn't there an old school EQ dungeon where this was possible? It sounds familiar.


Blackburrow.  Gnoll trains. Good times.

-Rasix
Trippy
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Reply #38 on: July 12, 2004, 08:06:17 PM

Quote from: Rasix
Quote from: WayAbvPar

I can see it now...narrow path, giant high level character, teeming mob of lower level critters, highbie goes AFK and watches the carnage as the lowbies he followed get torn to ribbons with no escape route.

Wasn't there an old school EQ dungeon where this was possible? It sounds familiar.


Blackburrow.  Gnoll trains. Good times.


Upper Guk has the same problem. It just takes one "fatty" (original model Ogre) to block the exit. The froggy trains there weren't as immense as the Blackburrow ones though.
boley
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Reply #39 on: July 12, 2004, 08:37:41 PM

The zone from lowerguk (dead side) to upper guk was the worst I encountered.  A single fatty could easily block in that entire side of the zone.  It usually happened when someone went afk while zoning, meaning they popped in and were in the way until they returned.  The trains to that zone line may not have been huge in number, but the sheer terror inspired by end game (at the time) froggies abusing a pile of players was something to behold.  If I remember correctly the froggy wizards could even cast ice comet.

I now smell of long forgotten catass.  I shall have to bathe.
eldaec
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Reply #40 on: July 13, 2004, 05:14:48 PM

Quote
I can see it now...narrow path, giant high level character, teeming mob of lower level critters, highbie goes AFK and watches the carnage as the lowbies he followed get torn to ribbons with no escape route.

Wasn't there an old school EQ dungeon where this was possible? It sounds familiar.


There's a new school dungeon where it's possible : all-of-them-in-CoH (well, not so much in the open air parts - but you get the idea).

Which is what triggered the question.

CoH are planning to have pvp - surely they won't turn off collision detection?  Which reminded how annoying it is not to have collision detection in DAoC. Which in turn made me wonder if our favourite DAoC PvP clone has same....

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Arnold
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Reply #41 on: July 13, 2004, 06:37:17 PM

Quote from: Riggswolfe
There are huge, and I mean, huge letters on the forums from PvP guilds and one of the number one things they request is a PvP death penalty.

::shrugs::


Death penalties are good, as long as they aren't too harsh.  In games like UO, where equipment is all common, simply dropping everything on death was a good penalty.  It forced the player to take a timeout to re-equip.

Asheron's Call had a good death penalty system where a player would drop a number of items, based on level.  But players could carry high priced, unimportant "death items" which would drop before their real equipment.  Everyone was in need of death items to protect their own gear, so if that's all you got from a kill, it was good.  AC also had a progressive penalty on skills for each death that took XP gain to get rid of.

I guess that's why I play Counterstrike instead of Quake.  I like the death penalty.
Arnold
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Reply #42 on: July 13, 2004, 06:39:59 PM

Quote from: Darniaq
I guess I'm still looking for an impression on just why there's any focus on PvP at all in Wow.


The Warcraft games were all about PvP.  I'd expect the World of Warcraft to be pretty heavy on PvP.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #43 on: July 13, 2004, 07:47:02 PM

Quote from: Arnold
Quote from: Darniaq
I guess I'm still looking for an impression on just why there's any focus on PvP at all in Wow.


The Warcraft games were all about PvP.  I'd expect the World of Warcraft to be pretty heavy on PvP.


 The warcraft games were RTS, not MMO. Do you see the difference? And in the last one, the races are at an uneasy truce by the end. I hate this particular attempt to justify PvP as it has no basis in reality.

As for PvP death penalties, I really don't care since I will probably never play on the PvP server. Let all the freaks consume each other and pull those guilds that write all the letters about death penalties to their server. Leaves the civilized people alone to have fun.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #44 on: July 14, 2004, 03:51:34 AM

Quote from: Riggswolfe

 The warcraft games were RTS, not MMO. Do you see the difference? And in the last one, the races are at an uneasy truce by the end. I hate this particular attempt to justify PvP as it has no basis in reality.


Please look up the terms "MMO" and "reality".

Quote from: Riggswolfe
As for PvP death penalties, I really don't care since I will probably never play on the PvP server. Let all the freaks consume each other and pull those guilds that write all the letters about death penalties to their server. Leaves the civilized people alone to have fun.


Next week our traumatised guest speaker will be a 42 father of 4 from Portland, describing a near death experience in the Minoc mountians and how the events of that day have haunted him ever since.
Tebonas
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Reply #45 on: July 14, 2004, 04:38:24 AM

Now you are playing dumb to troll him, Arthur Parker. You realize he meant reality of the game lore, or in other terms consistency of the game world.

Of course, I don't necessarily agree because the uneasy truce can be broken in a 30 second cut scene of the WoW trailer. But then I don't want to play on PvP servers without rock solid accountability either.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #46 on: July 14, 2004, 04:56:26 AM

Did he, are you sure?  He comes across as that bat fuck insane to me, so I wasn't sure.

Oh wait, hold on, you agree it was a stupid statement too, you just want to be focus on one element of it's stupidness instead of my attempt at gathering the stupid up in one bundle and dealing with it all at once, I see, carry on.
Tebonas
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Reply #47 on: July 14, 2004, 05:44:36 AM

I mean what I said. Nothing more, nothing less. I share his view on PvP-worlds, but I'm not accusing all PvPlers to be sociopathic PKers. But enough are so that the interruptions they cause overshadow the positive effects you have from being able to truly interact with your fellow players.

Since the days of the great migration of Roleplayers out of Everquest I say the problem isn't with the games, but with the players. As long as the developer doesn't have the courage to protect me from sociopaths by revoking their accounts, they have to develop workarounds so that those sociopaths can't do too much damage in the game.

WoW will be a hotbed of stupidity, judging from the Battlenet clientelle. Every
way to grief other people will be used in abundance.
El Gallo
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Reply #48 on: July 14, 2004, 07:36:20 AM

It is a pretty widespread view that PvP servers drain some of the most antisocial fuckups from the regular servers.  It's certainly true in EQ.  Have you ever read the Sullon Zek boards?

This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
Nebu
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Reply #49 on: July 14, 2004, 11:14:08 AM

Quote from: El Gallo
It is a pretty widespread view that PvP servers drain some of the most antisocial fuckups from the regular servers.  It's certainly true in EQ.  Have you ever read the Sullon Zek boards?


While I can't really argue this, it's also possible to some degree that "teh stupid" on the other servers just don't post.  

It's true that pvp brings some of the most anti-social gamers to the table, but I often prefer it as it commonly brings the most skilled as well.  Believe me, nothing is more fun than killing some asshat in a pvp situation... it gives a small feeling of accountability.  Now in a game like EQ where there really is no place for pvp (we all know that it was a patched in after thought), the whole thing ends up being pretty meaningless.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Riggswolfe
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Reply #50 on: July 14, 2004, 12:29:11 PM

Quote from: Arthur_Parker
Quote from: Riggswolfe

 The warcraft games were RTS, not MMO. Do you see the difference? And in the last one, the races are at an uneasy truce by the end. I hate this particular attempt to justify PvP as it has no basis in reality.


Please look up the terms "MMO" and "reality".


Are you truly this stupid? I mean, can you have so few functioning brain cells or are you being intentionally ignorant? I didn't mean the god damn game was real you dumb fuck. I meant that in the game's lore, in the background alot of people actually played through the races are at peace! Now, if they introduced the scourge as a playable faction or the burning legion, then you'd have an excuse. As it is, people like you are why I don't mind PvP servers (other than the resources they drain) because they get the dumb shits off of my server.

I am not going to bother to respond to the rest of your post since it is merely more drooling from a subhuman ape. Carry on all.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
MrHat
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Reply #51 on: July 14, 2004, 11:19:42 PM

Just read this on the official forums:

"Also, the quest team is planning on adding PvP quests in the future. If you have any ideas or suggestions, feel free to post them in our Quest Forum. ~Kat"

Now I'm just curious.
schild
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Reply #52 on: July 14, 2004, 11:25:12 PM

There's absolutely no fucking way they can implement pvp quests without griefing.

Though, consensual pvp quests could be interesting. You sign up to be hunted, then an unknown player goes to the station and signs on to find you and kill you. You won't know til your attacked. That could be an interesting way to kill an hour or 2.
HRose
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Reply #53 on: July 14, 2004, 11:34:34 PM

Quote from: schild
Though, consensual pvp quests could be interesting. You sign up to be hunted, then an unknown player goes to the station and signs on to find you and kill you. You won't know til your attacked. That could be an interesting way to kill an hour or 2.


This could work on a battleground but not on the normal world. It's impossible to actually find someone else without a super radar. Bounty quests could be fun but they have that problem.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Arthur_Parker
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Reply #54 on: July 15, 2004, 01:59:44 AM

Removed because I was being more of a dick than usual.
daveNYC
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Reply #55 on: July 15, 2004, 08:23:08 AM

Quote from: HRose
Quote from: schild
Though, consensual pvp quests could be interesting. You sign up to be hunted, then an unknown player goes to the station and signs on to find you and kill you. You won't know til your attacked. That could be an interesting way to kill an hour or 2.


This could work on a battleground but not on the normal world. It's impossible to actually find someone else without a super radar. Bounty quests could be fun but they have that problem.

Then make it a kill a named mob vs. defend the named mob quest.
El Gallo
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Reply #56 on: July 15, 2004, 08:53:27 AM

AP, did you forget your meds today?  I think that the guy's only point initially was that you are not forced by the WC lore & prior WC games to make WoW PvP.  The point isn't that you CANNOT have PvP in WoW, just that you don't HAVE TO HAVE IT to have WoW make sense with the other games.  But I guess you've been dying to use those carebear slams you copied from the WTFMan front page 3 years ago pretty badly.



The comment about PvP being why other MMOGs are slow paced is off base, but you started flinging shit long before that.

This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
kidder
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Reply #57 on: July 15, 2004, 09:29:59 AM

Quote from: daveNYC
Quote from: HRose
Quote from: schild
Though, consensual pvp quests could be interesting. You sign up to be hunted, then an unknown player goes to the station and signs on to find you and kill you. You won't know til your attacked. That could be an interesting way to kill an hour or 2.


This could work on a battleground but not on the normal world. It's impossible to actually find someone else without a super radar. Bounty quests could be fun but they have that problem.

Then make it a kill a named mob vs. defend the named mob quest.


Exactly!  Why does PVP in a MMOG have to be the exact same as what has been done before?  There are so many ways to make PvP more fun in WoW than any other MMORPG that has come before.  Those are one of the kinds of quests that would be great for PvP.  Add in a squad based restriction, where when you die...you leave the instance...and you could have a really competitive game that would only add to the WoW experience.

There are MANY other PvP game types that could be added.  Tournaments, Ladders, FFA Deathmatches, Team Deathmatches...etc.

Kidder
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eldaec
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Reply #58 on: July 15, 2004, 10:40:31 AM

DAoC already has defend the named mob vs attack the named mob quests in the frontier. At least it *did* have them, not sure if they were ever translated into NF.

Either way, the player base ignored them.

Probably because most players just wanted to do endless, aimless 1fg vs 1fg roaming in emain 24/7.

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HaemishM
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Reply #59 on: July 15, 2004, 11:23:05 AM

Quote from: eldaec
DAoC already has defend the named mob vs attack the named mob quests in the frontier. At least it *did* have them, not sure if they were ever translated into NF.

Either way, the player base ignored them.

Probably because most players just wanted to do endless, aimless 1fg vs 1fg roaming in emain 24/7.


I was amazed at some of the whining going on on the DAoC Vault boards about this very subject, proclaiming that 8v8 PVP was dead thanks to New Frontiers.

Strangely enough, I spent a lot of my time in the battlegrounds last night with dick in the dirt from a roaming group of 5-6 Hibernian gankers that were doing exactly that extremely well (though I suspect their bard had a radar program).

I'm just flabbergasted that all some of these muttonheads want to do is the Emain shuffle all goddamn night long.

Riggswolfe
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Reply #60 on: July 15, 2004, 12:15:41 PM

I suppose my main issues is that I am extremely cynical about PvP play and the players. You'll see long detailed posts ranting about the challenge and the danger.

Then you log into a PvP server or play early UO and see the reality. Gang mindset in action. Groups waiting to gangrape single or duo players and then taunt them after they die. I've seen it every single time I've given a PvP server a shot. I saw it in UO. (In fact, that was almost all UO was at the time I left.)

So forgive me if I'm more than a little cynical when I see these same posts being written on the WoW forums and on here about the greatness of PvP. The challenge. Etc.

My other primary issue with PvP comes from how it impacts PvE indirectly. Primarily through whining from PvPers about how spell X or ability Y makes class Z unbeatable in PvP. The devs then bring out the nerf bat, usually to heavily, and the class gets gimped for PvE.

I don't think it is possible, at least with the current MMO design style, to balance both playstyles within the same game. I really don't. One has to be good at the expense of the other.

DaoC is perhaps the only game I've ever heard of that even comes close to pulling it off. At the expense of an incredibly boring PvE portion of the game.

I suppose my feeling is, let PvP players have their own server. I'm all for that. When I'm feeling masochistic I'll even log on and be gang raped by the roving gangs of Max level players hunting newbies. BUT. They take what they are given. They don't whine. They don't cry nerf. They realize that their playstyle is an afterthought unless the game is designed from the ground up to be PvP. WoW, like the majority of games out there was not. If it was PvP probably would have been tested much earlier than phase 3 of beta. Battlegrounds would at least be PvP-free zones across the world.

Ok, enough ranting.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Ezdaar
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Reply #61 on: July 15, 2004, 12:44:40 PM

DAOC comes as close to perfect PVP as I think we're going to get. Perhaps not perfect in always balanced etc, but perfect in the overall execution. PVP is completely consentual, PVP is anonymous in that you don't see names until the combat is done, there is no cross realm communication so no trash talking, there are no penalties for getting pwned but huge carrots for participating and doing well.
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Reply #62 on: July 15, 2004, 12:47:13 PM

Quote from: HaemishM
I'm just flabbergasted that all some of these muttonheads want to do is the Emain shuffle all goddamn night long.


Therein lies the problem with some players. They want to do the "Emain shuffle" because it's the easiest way for an 8 man gank group to get fucktons of RPs and get to RR10L10 the fastest. Yes, there are players whose sole goal is to obtain the highest "level" in the game. The good part is that there are many more players who just enjoy RvR and aren't really all the worried about the numbers that are racking up each time they kill someone.

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HaemishM
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Reply #63 on: July 15, 2004, 02:09:33 PM

See, I enjoy racking up realm points; I love the tinkering of abilities, and I'm absolutely smitten with the idea of getting experience for PVP kills in DAoC. But I'm also there trying to defend or retake the keep, trying to disrupt attacks by cutting supply lines and hitting from the rear. I enjoy the tactical and strategic aspects of it.

Why make PVP just another fucking level treadmill as a playstyle?

DAoC's PVE isn't boring because their powers are balanced for PVP; it's boring because it takes a long time and there really isn't a lot of different strategies for it that I've seen.

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Reply #64 on: July 15, 2004, 02:19:39 PM


-HRose / Abalieno
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blindy
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Reply #65 on: July 15, 2004, 02:34:18 PM

Quote from: El Gallo
It is a pretty widespread view that PvP servers drain some of the most antisocial fuckups from the regular servers.  It's certainly true in EQ.  Have you ever read the Sullon Zek boards?


This sucked me out of lurkdom.  I've done better than read the SZ boards, I played on the server.  Started at its release,  played for 8-10 months, and got to 57 on a mage (with neligble AA points) before I burned out on the leveling.  It was the best experience I've had in EQ.  There was a lot of problems, and the devs started to add some pvp features and then seemed to completely forget about it (leaving some things halfway implemented), but, for me, it was way better than regular EQ (I only ever got to about 20 on a blue server before quitting because I was bored out of my mind).

Anyways, the big trolls on the boards were often guys you rarely saw in game.  I remember this one dude, Vigg, amusing troll on whatever the current SZ board was at the time, always had some variation of "batboy" as his icon picture.  This was a guy who must have gotten several thousand posts in a couple months, almost all of them (sometimes amusing) complete bullshit, or just plain trolling.  But in game he just had some low level bard on the evil team that I think I saw maybe once ever.  The same with a lot of the other trolls.  There was an entire evil guild (I've forgotten its name) that had a reputation of posting a lot of dumb stuff on the boards.  In the game they were pretty much a non-factor that never got a lot of members to high levels.  The people/guilds who were a force on the server didn't really troll or spam the boards, though sometimes arguments/flames between them did happen.

The point being that a board isn't necessarily represenative of the server.  I suppose your statement is still literally true, those guys were attracted to SZ (and probably some of the other Zeks before that) instead of the regular servers, but if the implication is that the posters you saw on the SZ boards were typical of the people in game, then I'd disagree.   They were a pretty small minority, and usually a non-factor in game.
WayAbvPar
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Reply #66 on: July 15, 2004, 02:45:16 PM

Sullon Zek made Fansy possible. That in and of itself is a point in its favor. If you are going to grief, do it with style!

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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Who the hell taught you how to write? Fuck, that sentence is like internet transmitted face-attacking knives. Jesus. schild
blindy
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Reply #67 on: July 15, 2004, 03:18:27 PM

Quote from: HaemishM


Why make PVP just another fucking level treadmill as a playstyle?


Since I'm posting, I might as well reply to this too.  That way my playstyle when I played (though, admittedly, I haven't played in 1.5 years, so I can't comment on the current state of the game). I enjoyed that playstyle.  

As to why, well, I'm not much of a social player.  The two primary things I like about mmorpgs are advancement and fighting other players.  The emain schuffle combined those things.  I liked looking at the list of realm abilities and saying "ooh, I could get that" and then going out and earning enough to buy it through ganking other players (or, since I was a druid, more like my group ganking others while I healed).  

I've always liked the idea of advancement in mmorpgs, the idea of levels (or some sort of numeric advancement).  Hell, I like levels in PnP games.   Its just the reality of leveling in mmorpgs that leaves a lot to desire.  There was probably a time when getting to 60 in EQ and getting lots of phat lewt sounded like a good idea, but the reality of grinding all that exp then going on raid after raid left me cold and ensured it never happened (I got close in exp on SZ, as my earlier post mentions, but I always had shit for equipment because I couldn't stand camping and raiding).  But the emain schuffle was like a revelation; finally here was a game where I could advance by having fun, by doing something I actually enjoyed, fighting other players, rather than struggling to stay awake while my group killed spider after spider.  I liked it so much, it was all I wanted to do in game.  I didn't care about dragon or DF raids, relics and fort taking was kind of a necessarily evil, but put me in an emain group while a good mid or alb group was around and I could have fun forever.  (The only reason I ever quit was the issues associated with being in the lowest pop realm on a low pop server: Hib/Palomides).  It might have been a treadmill, but if grind is a state of mind, it was never a grind for me, because I never felt it.

Running around emain in a group, or even with a zerg, there was constant action (on a good night), and that was fun.  But when I played, taking forts tended to be either boring or frustrating.   When we attacked a fort, often there would be no one there, so we'd beat on the door for awhile, and either no one would show up and it'd fall, or we'd get some alb zerg SOS'ing into the fort and we'd have to retreat.  Compared to that, running around emain was perfect.  But maybe NF has fixed all this, I don't know.
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