Alterac Valley

[Xanthippe]

More specifically - how do you kill Lok'holar?

It seems Ivus goes down very quickly, graveyard zerg works quite well.  Ivus is also rather weak in comparison.

[Jobu]

Kiting him back to the base with hunters works pretty well. You gotta assume the Horde get a little sloppy and let him get away from them. That's the only way I've ever seen where the Alliance manage to kill him (I play horde).

[Zetor]

Yeah, Ivus and Balinda are insanely gimpy. You need two hunters with pally backup to train Lok properly, since he periodically freezes (undispellable stun) the #1 person on the aggrolist. You also need blessing of freedom and cleanses to keep a distance from the frostbolts and blizzards. Ivus otoh is a simple kite, doable by 1 hunter (seen it done multiple times). Balinda is 2-mannable (she barely does any damage), Galv needs at least 6-8.

OTOH, the horde base is 1000x easier to take than the alliance base, so there you go.


-- Z.

[Merusk]

Your AVs last long enough to summon Ivus and Lok?  Wow.  Mine don't last long enough to hearth back to turn-in stuff and then run back to the offense group.

[Xanthippe]

So once you kite them to base, then what?  The NPCs don't do a thing.

Sometimes the games last long enough for someone to summon; usually not.  I hate Lok so much that if I think they're summoning, I'll dedicate my time to breaking it up (easy to do if Alliance owns Snowfall or Iceblood).

I tried doing the mine supplies quest before they changed the bgs, and I think I got halfway to whatever the goal is, after doing nothing but gathering mine supplies for two hours.  I don't even know what the goal is.  I have seen the ram riders once since the bg changes.  Ivus gets summoned a little more often.  The war riders come out more often than summonings, but most games are played without them.  Most games are a race to get the boss.

It seems easier to pull the WMs in the alliance base.  It's impossible to pull one WM in the horde base - I haven't seen one come, it's always at least two, and really easy to pull them all.

On my server, it seems like Alliance wins AV slightly more often than Horde.  Horde wins almost all WSG, though (I think my record is something like 1 and 12), and most of the ABs. 

[Morat20]

So once you kite them to base, then what?  The NPCs don't do a thing.

Kite him to your general. We had a group of hunters once that managed to kite an entire ram charge past Snowfall to our base. Must have pissed off the horde to no end, to see their ram charge get derailed by five hunters.

[Zetor]

Yeah... actually, we tried to train Lok to our base the other day, into the general's room, and he wouldn't attack (new change in 1.11?). The general DOES attack the wolf riders though.

Anyway, the idea about killing Lok is to separate him from the horde. He has a truckload of hp and hits quite hard, so graveyard zerging is usually involved... the trick is to not let horde capture the graveyard in the chaos.

Mine supplies... nobody does that anymore. I think after 100 turn-ins (you can see the progress by the crates piling up near the quartermaster), you can summon a group of commandos from the field of strife, they run straight into the enemy base and kick ass. They're 10 level 60-61 elites. If you manage to get supplies from the enemy's mine, it counts for double. I used to do this a LOT before the AV revamp... with 3 people on irondeep, you can optimize gathering efforts (with travel times, that's just enough people to keep the mine permanently cleaned out and in sync with the crate respawns) and you get some silver for your efforts as well. Of course, now with the rep change, it's better to be with the zerg constantly.


-- Z.

[Merusk]

Of course, now with the rep change, it's better to be with the zerg constantly.

I dunno.. as a raid healer who PvPs out of boredom I found I was getting tons more rep helping the D out than the O.  My spells take too long to get rep off of the few quick-dying folks who defende horde.  My hunter I always toss on O so I can't tell you the difference between the two with a more offensive class.

[Righ]

Anyway, the idea about killing Lok is to separate him from the horde. He has a truckload of hp and hits quite hard, so graveyard zerging is usually involved... the trick is to not let horde capture the graveyard in the chaos.

Same trick with Ivus. Of course the Alliance cried foul when I kited Ivus into the entry tunnel behind all the souped up guards. Worked wonders though, since when you die in the tunnel, you respawn there.

[Train Wreck]

Ok, so what change(s) did they make to turn AV into the honor grind that it is today?  I haven't seen one last longer than an hour in months.

[SurfD]

they removed a fairly large chunk of the NPCs out if the instance, and reduced the HP on all the remaining ones (other then boss types).

this basicly means that the favoured tactic of an alliance organized team is to now rush a small group directly to frostwolf graveyard, summon in about 2/3 of the alliance in the instance, and then just directly cap and assault our base.  Due to certain geometry fuckups on blizzards part, Frostwolf Keep is WAYY harder to deffend from said kind of attack then the allance base is.

[Train Wreck]

I liked it most when it first came out.  It seemed more like a war of attrition that anything else, but it was hours upon hours of PvP, and that's what I prefer after sitting in a queue for several hours.

[Koyasha]

Longest AV I was ever in started at around 5:30 in the morning, and ended at about 1:45 AM the following day.  It was one of the first AV's on the server (I think around the 3rd or 4th time AV had been done).  I think maybe four people, myself included, remained from start to finish.  We achieved victory.  It's the long fights like that that feel like real battles, where the tide shifts several times over the course of the game and you can't tell who's going to win in the first 10 minutes.  In most AV's I was in later on, it was a simple plow to the general, with it being basically decided in the first 10 minutes (Usually the Horde).

I've never understood people saying that Frostwolf Keep is more difficult to defend than Dun Baldar, though.  In my time in WoW I played both sides for quite some time, and I never saw Frostwolf fall easily, while Dun Baldar usually did.  The design of Frostwolf Keep, forcing the enemy to go through two distinct areas of battle, the building that usually dismounts people trying to go through it, and the approach that subjects attackers to fire from both Frostwolf towers, is much harder to assault.  Sneak attacks against the relief hut are also easily defended against by leaving 1-2 guards behind, something the Horde I've played with are often in the habit of doing.  All it takes is a slight delay and a warning to the main force, and an entire group can gate back to the keep.

[Merusk]

.. and that's what I prefer after sitting in a queue for several hours.

According to the Horde on my server you're a dirty liar and nobody sits in queues longer than 5-10 mins, if there is a queue - which isn't often!

No really, they actually believe that.

[bhodi]

Yeah. On our server (icecrown) it's 11.7k alliance and 3.7k horde. Our wait times are 30m-2hrs.

[Jayce]

Yeah. On our server (icecrown) it's 11.7k alliance and 3.7k horde. Our wait times are 30m-2hrs.

This was extremely enlightening to me when I saw it:

[Xanthippe]

Wow.  That's amazing.  I had no idea the ratio was that bad.  I wonder why?

I have always assumed (although I don't know why) that people who pvp tend toward playing Horde.  (I played Horde on a pve server which I quit due to boredom 2 months after launch - I have since played Alliance on a pvp server).

Interesting, the number of rp'ers playing Alliance.  No idea why that would be.  If I was an rp'er, I'd rather play Horde.

[Merusk]

Interesting, the number of rp'ers playing Alliance.  No idea why that would be.  If I was an rp'er, I'd rather play Horde.

In my experience over the years 90% of "RP-ers" are about hyper-melodrama, sprawling backstories and intricate detail about how you're the lost prince/princess/badass of some noble line, and Cyber (leading to most of the melodrama).

The first bit is achievable achievable with almost any system and backstory.  The second is a little harder to force into the Horde, but doable.  The third, however.  Well, your choices are cows, dead chicks, green bulldykes or purple chicks with really fucked-up toes.  It doesn't play well to the wanking while you remove your robe and wizzard hat.

Not that all RP'ers are like that, but there's a reason for stereotypes.

[Calantus]

Alliance are just flatout better at PVE than Horde. So if you were going to choose a faction based on PVE you'd go with alliance. There's also the fact that the 2 most often played races in most fantasy games are humans and elves. There was also a rumor that alliance quests and cities were a lot more finished than horde so a lot of people rolled alliance on that (I know I did originally). PVP servers are more balanced because horde racials rock PVP hard and shaman are generally seen as a PVP focussed hybrid (even though paladins are better at it IMO). Also PVPers tend to have more people who like to play the bloodthirsty/brutal/savage/evil/etc type races.

[Merusk]

..and shaman are generally seen as a PVP focussed hybrid (even though paladins are better at it IMO).

I've yet to see a well-played Pally in PvP, so I wish I could judge this for myself.  However, since most PvP-oriented folks think only in terms of Offense, that's also a reason the conventional wisdom says Shaman are better.  People get big e-peens from large crit numbers and two-shot kills, not the cancellation/ avoidance of those numbers and living for 10 mins while you hope someone comes along to help cap or kill the guys you're defending against.

[Jobu]

I've yet to see a well-played Pally in PvP, so I wish I could judge this for myself.  However, since most PvP-oriented folks think only in terms of Offense, that's also a reason the conventional wisdom says Shaman are better.  People get big e-peens from large crit numbers and two-shot kills, not the cancellation/ avoidance of those numbers and living for 10 mins while you hope someone comes along to help cap or kill the guys you're defending against.

Paladin's alone determine WSG matches on my server. You get one or two turtling with another priest or druid thrown in, and you just cannot kill them. I guess that counts as "well-played" to some extent. They know their niche, and exploit it effectively.

[Jayce]

BTW, credit for those who didnt right-click/image properties: http://blogs.parc.com/playon.

The thing I thought was enlightening is that PvE servers have this amazing horde deficit, but on PvP servers it's so close to 1:1 that you might as call it balanced.

[Kail]

Totally off topic noob question:

I just hit 52 with my main, and was thinking of trying AV.  It sounds interesting.  I've got a few questions, though:

-What's the XP like in there?  I hear a lot about killing NPCs (compared to AB and WSG where there aren't any NPCs) and doing repeateable quests; would it be feasable for me to grind a few levels in there?

-What's it like questing in there?  I understand there are a lot of quests (including some kind of trinket or something that seems fairly important) to do in there; is that something I can do, or would I get killed, or piss off the people who are focused on fighting the actual battle thingy?

-Mainly what I'm worried about is being a clueless lowbie idiot; is this unusual in AV?  I know that in the other BGs you very often get clueless lowbies and it's no big deal, but if these matches are hours long, people might get touchy about it.

I understand I'm likely to get stuck in a PUG and steamrolled by an epig geared uberguild, but I'm really getting sick of grinding.  Should I go in there at all, or am I looking at eight more levels of Sunken Temple reruns first?

[Shavnir]

AV's XP is entirely dependent on how well you can kite mobs to guards.  I wouldn't try and grind in there, most of the mobs are 58ish.

The trinket quest is done by retrieving a flag from near some gnolls, with a friend you can corpse hop and have one run them off while you loot the flag.  The trinket upgrades everytime your reputation goes up a notch (Neutral, Friendly, Honored, Revered, Exalted, 999/100 Exalted) until its a pretty nice hp/5 and dodge trinket.  Also the trinket allows you to 'hearth' back to your base.

As for AV the 'lost noob' factor is a lot worse there than the other two BGs because of how relatively complex it is.  It goes basically like this.  There's a series of (AB style) graveyards up the N/S line of this BG.  Guards spawn (or at least used to, I haven't played AV since 1.10 or so) and you essentially have to beat back the enemy force, take a graveyard and move northwards.  Once you're outside their base you pull out the enemy lieutenants one at a time (the general leashes inside the room so you are dragging his adds out and killing them before you go into kill him).  Kill him and you win.

Add into this taking over mines to summon raiders (level 60 elite NPCs), taming and killing enemy wolves/rams (which you do is dependent on which side you are on) for wolf / ram riders (these guys fucking hurt a lot), turning in armor scraps to upgrade your general call (used to upgrade your guards, not sure what it does but I think that's what it does post 1.11) and calling in air support by turning in enemy flesh / medals and rescuing wing commanders.  Oh and also you turn in blood in copious amounts and escort some shamans or druids to the middle and summon either a giant ice elemental or a giant treant.  Either way its a good time.

If you want more specifics on the turnins, rep or whatever go ahead and ask, but that's about as short as I can describe it while leaving the details intact.

[bhodi]

From what I understand, you can do fairly well in there 51-59, especially if you are a ranged or caster class. I did it as a druid. I'm not sure if anyone bothers to collect hides and animals anymore since the patch, it does seem to just be a race to the general. However, there are plenty of NPCs to level up on, and you'll want to get exalted if possible to get yourself the nice epic ring/weapons and epic mount. It's something different to do, anyway. Remember you get rep by just being in the zone, so I'd say it's advantageous to just solo in there and do all the quests for experience. You get 3k for turning in the victory medals as well, which doesn't hurt.

[ClydeJr]

I just hit 52 with my main, and was thinking of trying AV.  It sounds interesting.  I've got a few questions, though:

I wouldn't XP in AV. Especially now since they lowered the number of guards and such that are in there. AV is more about grinding rep and honor.

There's the trinket quest that Shavnir mentioned. There's a quest you get inside the BG where you have to rescue the flight masters. There's three of them and when you first see them they look like a dead person on the ground. When you click on them, they'll stand up, say something and then run back to your home base. As long as you are nearby when someone clicks on the guy, you'll get credit. There's also the turnin quests (for horde you turn in armor scraps for buffed guards, flesh for the flight masters, and blood for the uber NPC). If you have the AV trinket, you can use it to hearth back to your base and then turn in the items for easy xp and rep. It might be a good idea to do that when it looks like one side is going to win. Once AV is over, those items disappear from your inventory.

Unless you have a group of people working on the wolfriders/ramriders, it'll take too long to complete, especially with the speed of AVs these days.

There's a "Captain" NPC that's in a large structure for each side. They provide a periodic buff bonus to their side. Its a good idea to take them out as soon as possible.

Initially, the "General" NPC is alone in their fortress. However when you destroy an enemy structure (Horde destroys Alliance bunkers, Alliance destroys Horde towers), a protector NPC will spawn along with the general. There can be a max of 4. You will need to kill these before you take on the general. They won't respawn for a very long time once killed. They can be pulled outside the general's fortress unlike the general.

Since there's going to be 25+ people on your side in there, having 1 person run off to do something is not going to be a big deal. As long as it looks like you're doing something, no one will care. They might start yelling if it looks like you're just sitting at a graveyard mooching rep. The best thing you can do while learning is just follow the crowd and follow the mantra "If its red, its dead." However at 52 I'd make sure someone else is hitting it first.

[jonnytx]

Totally off topic noob question:

I just hit 52 with my main, and was thinking of trying AV.  It sounds interesting.  I've got a few questions, though:

-What's the XP like in there?  I hear a lot about killing NPCs (compared to AB and WSG where there aren't any NPCs) and doing repeateable quests; would it be feasable for me to grind a few levels in there?

I don't know about a few levels, you might knock out a good chunk of one though and have a pretty good time doing it.

Other posters already mentioned many of them but I'll pitch in with the ones that I remember as well...several of these are made available by npc's at the Alterac Mountains AV entrance just north of Tarren Mill.

-trinket quest
-cap a mine quest
-cap a graveyard quest
-cap a tower quest
-kill the general quest
-find the sky lords quest

There used to be many more before they scaled it all down. Well, the thing is, you get in there some time before level 60, you play a dozen matches or so and maybe win half of them, get these quests done (most you can pretty much complete by accident as long as you've accepted the quests), and you'll have made a good bit of exp. Maybe you'll want to keep playing and work on your rep or whatever, and keep in mind every victory is 3300 exp minimum and you can sometimes win two matches an hour. It's not great but you do see your exp bar move if you spend time in AV. Definitely get started before you hit 60 so you can enjoy what good exp is to be had.

[Shavnir]

One thing I forgot to mention.  There's a quest (you get outside that will complete when you win your first game of AV.  The rewards for it are the same as the old Korrak the Bloodrager quest (http://thottbot.com/?qu=-252) and all you have to do is be in AV when your side wins.  Even if you can't use one of those three items (they may have added a fourth, I don't remember) the Ice Barbed Spear vendors for over 7 gold.

[Morat20]

One thing I forgot to mention.  There's a quest (you get outside that will complete when you win your first game of AV.  The rewards for it are the same as the old Korrak the Bloodrager quest (http://thottbot.com/?qu=-252) and all you have to do is be in AV when your side wins.  Even if you can't use one of those three items (they may have added a fourth, I don't remember) the Ice Barbed Spear vendors for over 7 gold.

I got the Ice Barbed Spear for my Hunter at 52. Very nice weapon for a VERY long time. Well worth it, just for that. I think the crossbow is pretty decent as well, but I had something almost as good at the time.

[Merusk]

Ih you're a hunter, get the IBS without thinking twice.

 I'd had the CSX from Strath and figured the xbow was a decent upgrade.  It's so minor you barely notice it, however.   The CSX drops fairly often in my experience, so it's easy enough to get the spear and it both.  Your other choice is dual-wielding which means many many many additional Strath/ UBRS runs (or paying for Dawn's Edges) to get the Bone Slicing Hatchets or Dal'Rends.  Other classes also want both of those, though, so unless you're in a guild group your argument is much stronger for getting awarded the CSX.

[Morat20]

Ih you're a hunter, get the IBS without thinking twice.

 I'd had the CSX from Strath and figured the xbow was a decent upgrade.  It's so minor you barely notice it, however.   The CSX drops fairly often in my experience, so it's easy enough to get the spear and it both.  Your other choice is dual-wielding which means many many many additional Strath/ UBRS runs (or paying for Dawn's Edges) to get the Bone Slicing Hatchets or Dal'Rends.  Other classes also want both of those, though, so unless you're in a guild group your argument is much stronger for getting awarded the CSX.

I used the spear until I got a Bone Slicing Hatchet (took freakin' forever, no less) and The Thunderwood Poker (some AQ20/ZG quest item -- dagger with identical stats to the BSH, but slightly more damage).

[Righ]

It took a LONG time for my hunter to get a BSH. It took as long to get the Baron's cape. I never got the Beaststalker pants. Must have run a hundred runs - I was hideously unlucky. In fact, I got a Brutality Blade first. Then, on one run, I got both BSH and the cape. Next night, in MC, I spent my DKP on Cloak of the Shrouded Mists. :)

[Morat20]

It took a LONG time for my hunter to get a BSH. It took as long to get the Baron's cape. I never got the Beaststalker pants. Must have run a hundred runs - I was hideously unlucky. In fact, I got a Brutality Blade first. Then, on one run, I got both BSH and the cape. Next night, in MC, I spent my DKP on Cloak of the Shrouded Mists. :)

I was still running for the Cape, the pants, and the cloak when I ended up getting the Tigershide cloak (I think that's what it's called) in ZG. Decent agility and a 1% bonus to hit -- I put the +5 all resists enchant on that, and figured it was "Good enough". I finally did get the boots and the one hatchet, but I've yet to see the pants drop (and mine are craptacular pants).

We're doing weekly MC runs (one night a week, we're just now getting back to the boss before Domo) and I seem to have the worst luck with Giantstalker. The only piece I've gotten (the belt) was because every other hunter had it already, so I was the only one rolling. (We just add DKP to rolls for set pieces -- everything else is bid on). I did get the Blastershot Launcher and the Core Marksman Rifle Schematic (not if only that damn accurascope schem would drop!).

So I've quit worrying about the pants, and just wear the Black Dragonscale ones until something good drops in MC. My helm (other than a +14 FR on it) is the crappiest piece of gear I've got, and I'm dying for the GS headpiece.

[Merusk]

I got my full Beast set a long time ago.. Chest was my cockblock, every time I was in there on my Priest; hunter drop..  on my hunter.. everything but.  It was vexing.   Don't worry about the pants, tho.. the Leggings of Destruction out of DM Tribute really are superior unless you're going for that nice +mana bonus from your shots.

If your helm's really that bad, then run DM west one time and get the Backwood helm from the quest to kill the prince. 

Some day I too will get the Baron's cape.  I've never even seen it drop, though.

[Morat20]

I got my full Beast set a long time ago.. Chest was my cockblock, every time I was in there on my Priest; hunter drop..  on my hunter.. everything but.  It was vexing.   Don't worry about the pants, tho.. the Leggings of Destruction out of DM Tribute really are superior unless you're going for that nice +mana bonus from your shots.

If your helm's really that bad, then run DM west one time and get the Backwood helm from the quest to kill the prince. 

Some day I too will get the Baron's cape.  I've never even seen it drop, though.

My hunter is my only 60 (I like alts -- have two in the mid thirties, and two more in the upper 20s), I've been in a supportive guild since my main was about 40. I've NEVER been to Dire Maul or Scholo. Never had to grind out a level, either. Spent a lot of time in Blackrock, though. I keep meaning to run DM West for that helm (another hunter was using it until he won a GS drop) -- I just haven't been on much outside of raids, and I keep figuring I'll get GS sooner or later.