The Decision That Levels The Playing Field

[Quinton]

Can these managed C# projects be built for and shipped on regular PCs?  If that's the case it's less scary --  My code is not locked into a platform where I have no idea if it might ever see the light of day.

Yes there are no restrictions on how XNA Game Studio Express can be used under Windows XP.

Oh, excellent.  That's not nearly as bad as it first sounded.  I still want to see real open distribution to the consoles, but avoiding the roach motel model here is a good first step while they sort out the rest.

Of course I *really* hope this starts some kind of crazy arms race between the three big console players to see who can embrace indie games the best and fastest, resulting in some huge wins for the little guys.  I personally have more interest in hacking on ps3 or wii code than xbox, but I suspect msft is going to have a far better tools story (assuming the other two do launch competing devkits).

- Q

[Stephen Zepp]

As Trippy said, Game Studio Express can build on PC's with no issue, and you can distribute whatever you like in any way you like (as long as you own ip, etc., etc.--usual caveats).

The initial/trial Creator's Club that they feel will be first has some constraints that are a matter of technical detail more than intended workflow--trust me, I'm pretty sure they want a way in the long run for people to be able to go straight from dev to retail on 360 (XBLive/LiveAnywhere I'm talking about here, not disc based or anything) that is as automated as possible and sure insure quality end content.

[Stephen Zepp]

Video from GameFest Keynote speech:

Summary page--multiple links

Highlights (10 mins)

Entire speech (58 mins)

If you are curious about GG's involvement, the first link about 2/3 of the way through shows Marble Blast Ultra completely ported to C# over XNA (no c++ at all).

The second link (also about 2/3 of the way through) shows off a quick demo of TGB, Torque X, as well as the MBU demo.

[Margalis]

So I distribute all my source code and production assets for free to everyone, cannot sell my creation and have a crippleware environment that doesn't support features that have been standard for decades.

Sounds like a winner.

What a joke. You want to make something that will encourage indies? Just give away a 360 compiler and other basic tools along with basic library documentation. The networking APIs are there but I can't use them because I'm stuck with some weak "lite" dev environment?

I don't think most indie devs want to be treated like small children.

[Stephen Zepp]

So I distribute all my source code and production assets for free to everyone, cannot sell my creation and have a crippleware environment that doesn't support features that have been standard for decades.

Sounds like a winner.

What a joke. You want to make something that will encourage indies? Just give away a 360 compiler and other basic tools along with basic library documentation. The networking APIs are there but I can't use them because I'm stuck with some weak "lite" dev environment?

I don't think most indie devs want to be treated like small children.

Not sure how many times it needs to be said before it sinks in....this stage is not intended for people to make money. It's not a commercial distribution path.

This stage is setting up a community, by giving those interested the ability to share their code across the network and deploy it to a 360, without a dev kit. It's intended to help foster the good old days of being able to collaborate with a community for developing games, but this time on a console instead of a pc.

Something that no other console in the world allows you to do, period, and it's dirt cheap ($12 a month--most people pay more than that for a MMO subscription if they play one).

It's also the first iteration of bleeding edge technology. As it evolves, and the community built around it demonstrates need and desire for various functionality, it will be implemented.

[Margalis]

This stage is setting up a community, by giving those interested the ability to share their code across the network and deploy it to a 360, without a dev kit. It's intended to help foster the good old days of being able to collaborate with a community for developing games, but this time on a console instead of a pc.

You mean the good old days of shareware and such? I don't remember any "good old days" where devs gave away everything for free, including all source and art assets, were restricted in what they could do and could not distribute anything.

Something that no other console in the world allows you to do, period, and it's dirt cheap ($12 a month--most people pay more than that for a MMO subscription if they play one).

It's also the first iteration of bleeding edge technology. As it evolves, and the community built around it demonstrates need and desire for various functionality, it will be implemented.

The GBA allows you do that that, but better since you aren't restricted by a lame environment.

As far as "bleeding edge technology" goes - crippleware tools are bleeding edge?

The whole approach is silly. Just open up the entire API. Functionality will be implemented as needed? The functionality is already all there. It just isn't being exposed.

On a PC or GBA I can use the exact same functionality that any other dev can use. In this environment the full APIs are being hidden away for what reason exactly? Devs have to beg and whine to use networking APIs then wait for MS to implement them when they are just sitting right there?

Again, don't treat people like babies. Give them a proper compiler and docs and let them burn their own discs. This is just a fancy toy and an insult.

If MS had a true interest in the indie scene they would expose full APIs to use the same way real devs use them.

[Stephen Zepp]

This stage is setting up a community, by giving those interested the ability to share their code across the network and deploy it to a 360, without a dev kit. It's intended to help foster the good old days of being able to collaborate with a community for developing games, but this time on a console instead of a pc.

You mean the good old days of shareware and such? I don't remember any "good old days" where devs gave away everything for free, including all source and art assets, were restricted in what they could do and could not distribute anything.

Something that no other console in the world allows you to do, period, and it's dirt cheap ($12 a month--most people pay more than that for a MMO subscription if they play one).

It's also the first iteration of bleeding edge technology. As it evolves, and the community built around it demonstrates need and desire for various functionality, it will be implemented.

The GBA allows you do that that, but better since you aren't restricted by a lame environment.

As far as "bleeding edge technology" goes - crippleware tools are bleeding edge?

The whole approach is silly. Just open up the entire API. Functionality will be implemented as needed? The functionality is already all there. It just isn't being exposed.

On a PC or GBA I can use the exact same functionality that any other dev can use. In this environment the full APIs are being hidden away for what reason exactly? Devs have to beg and whine to use networking APIs then wait for MS to implement them when they are just sitting right there?

Again, don't treat people like babies. Give them a proper compiler and docs and let them burn their own discs. This is just a fancy toy and an insult.

If MS had a true interest in the indie scene they would expose full APIs to use the same way real devs use them.

Whatever dude.

[Trippy]

As far as "bleeding edge technology" goes - crippleware tools are bleeding edge?

The whole approach is silly. Just open up the entire API. Functionality will be implemented as needed? The functionality is already all there. It just isn't being exposed.

I think you are missing the point on the technical side of things. Managed code on the Xbox 360 is a new thing -- it's so new in fact the gaming APIs haven't been finalized yet. So why port .NET over to the Xbox 360? That's a good question. At E3 Microsoft made some noise about how they've been neglecting game development on Windows and how they are going to make Windows and Xbox 360 cross-platform development easier and apparently beefing up support for DirectX in .NET and porting .NET to the Xbox 360 is their answer to that.

Again, don't treat people like babies. Give them a proper compiler and docs and let them burn their own discs. This is just a fancy toy and an insult.

If MS had a true interest in the indie scene they would expose full APIs to use the same way real devs use them.

Yes it would be nice if Microsoft (and Nintendo and Sony) made their dev kits available to anybody. Unfortunately that's not going to happen. Will XNA Game Studio be a solution for indie developers? It's hard to say without knowing more about the versions that will be released next year and what licensing and distribution restrictions they might impose. Right now XNA Game Studio Express certainly is not a solution (given the non-commerical restriction) even if it did support binary distribution.

[Margalis]

Entire dev kits have a lot of things, including debuggers etc. All I'm saying is ship out a compiler and let people burn their own discs.

The reason PCs had a "good old days" of indie development was that indies can do everything big studios can do. The studios don't have any super-secret extra technology. I can use all the same methods, APIs, libraries and techniques. If I'm a really good programmer I can do what a major studio can do.

The problem is on consoles you can't do that, and this XNA stuff doesn't address this. Real developers get to develop in C and I get to develop in C# against a smaller set of libraries? Right out the door you are making indie devs second-class citizens.

How hard is it to just give out a compiler and some basic docs?

As an indie dev how does managed code help me exactly? It doesn't. It serves some crappy MS agenda, not my agenda. I don't need all the same tools major studios get - all I want is the same potential, although my path may be a lot longer and harder. In theory if I work super hard and am super smart I want to be able to make a real game.

With XNA my game can't do as much and is slower. It's like telling people you are going to let them develop PC games then handing them Java with an incomplete set of libraries and that is all they can use. EXACTLY like that really.

It's a toy development system. A real development system starts with a C compiler compiling against the standard APIs.

[schild]

I'm just wondering, I mean there's been a lot of big talk in this thread. A lot of crazy big talk. But uh, how many people are going to need that "AAA" potential. Indie devs don't go for that. The vast majority will do casual gaming and experimental gaming stuff and this is an opportunity to port straight to a modern console and exchange the code with other people in the program. Maybe once in a blue moon something deep and innovative will come out of it, but I see it as a step in the right direction.

Why is it being labeled as crippleware if there's nothing to compare it to (other than $50,000 dev kits)?

[Margalis]

Having AAA potential is not the same as actually creating a AAA game. No, most likely nobody is going to create a AAA title even if you give out real 360 dev kits for free. My problem with this is you aren't creating real 360 games and you don't even have a chance to try to make a AAA title.

It's like putting Java on the 360 and having people write Java games. It's not even 360 programming really. It's programming for an environment that runs on the 360, but is not the actual 360 environment. I mean no networking? It's not like networking is some fringe feature.

I call it crippleware because it cripples what you can do on the 360. It provides you a very limited environment instead of letting you access the full spectrum of functionality.

My suspicion is that this won't appeal to many people, because they have my mindset. It's almost insulting. I'm supposed to be all excited because I can get some crap running on a 360 in some weak .NET environment?

I could do that, or I could get an ARM/THUMB compiler and write a homebrew GBA game that can do everything and anything a real GBA game could do.

Again, I'm not asking for a whole dev kit. Just a compiler and some way to run your stuff an the 360 be it burned discs or whatever. This thing seems like it's aimed for amateurs and kids. Indies and amateurs are not the same thing.

[Righ]

Also, regarding OSX  I think that there is a really good read on Jeff Tunnell's blog regarding game development on OSX.

Late to the party, and I should post there, but can't be arsed. Unsurprisingly, for somebody who had to make Mac games in the past, he speaks from bitter experience. Mac on Intel pretty much changes everything, at least if you want it to. Despite the portents of doom that he alludes to with respect to Boot Camp, I don't buy it. The people who will buy (or indeed steal) a copy of Windows XP/Vista, partition their disk and reboot their computer into Windows in order to play games already had PCs that they were gaming on. For them, Boot Camp is a useful workaround, not a solution.

The other day I got a support call while I was playing on my MacBook Pro under Windows. It was awkward. No such problems when I'm playing WoW under OS X, and I have all my other tools around. Duplicating them all over on the Windows partition just isn't an option, not least because laptops don't have huge hard drives. So, I'll still buy Mac games if they're fun to play. Now that we're on Intel boxes, porting should be trivial and cost-effective, particularly with Windows-derived APIs like Cider. Its certainly the case that Intel is good for Mac market growth - it wasn't until Apple started shipping Intel computers that their Mac sales outperformed their iPod sales, and a good proportion of them went to first time Mac users.

As for the hysterics elsewhere in this thread regarding XNA and Torque, I don't get it. These are good tools, but they're just an option. If they don't fit your need, use something else. Don't condemn them just because they aren't what you wanted or needed.

[Stephen Zepp]

Having AAA potential is not the same as actually creating a AAA game. No, most likely nobody is going to create a AAA title even if you give out real 360 dev kits for free. My problem with this is you aren't creating real 360 games and you don't even have a chance to try to make a AAA title.

It's like putting Java on the 360 and having people write Java games. It's not even 360 programming really. It's programming for an environment that runs on the 360, but is not the actual 360 environment. I mean no networking? It's not like networking is some fringe feature.

I call it crippleware because it cripples what you can do on the 360. It provides you a very limited environment instead of letting you access the full spectrum of functionality.

My suspicion is that this won't appeal to many people, because they have my mindset. It's almost insulting. I'm supposed to be all excited because I can get some crap running on a 360 in some weak .NET environment?

I could do that, or I could get an ARM/THUMB compiler and write a homebrew GBA game that can do everything and anything a real GBA game could do.

Again, I'm not asking for a whole dev kit. Just a compiler and some way to run your stuff an the 360 be it burned discs or whatever. This thing seems like it's aimed for amateurs and kids. Indies and amateurs are not the same thing.

Couple of things from both this post and others:

Game Studio Express : managed, C# code--intended for indies

Game Studio Professional : managed, C# code--intended for professionals.

NOTE: Neither of the Game Studio versions as far as I am aware are going to allow native code of any type, not assembler, not c++, not nothing.

The only features currently that are "crippled" are due to one of a few issues:

1) Tech development. For example, distribution of binaries isn't implemented yet across the framework. In addition, the networking issues aren't resolved yet. I think that Margalis may have heard some rumors about what dev kits for 360 let you do, but they allow two things only (that I am aware of):

--can network outside of the protected/encrypted 360 proprietary network, since dev kits let you turn off the encryption. This means that it is currently the only way to attach to a PC.
--can run unsigned code by building with Visual Studio and delpoying the package to the dev kit.

FYI, 360 dev kits don't have a debugger--they simply allow a remote debugging session to the 360 from Visual Studio via a network connection.

2) 360 Brand protection/platform security. MS is never ever ever going to allow unsigned code on their retail 360's that isn't managed. Won't happen. That's why all XBLA/CD-Rom pressed games require a 5 digit budget for certification, as well as an approval from MS for a distribution slot.

Oh, and by the way: if you want fully capable c++ development for XBox360, go by a TSE-360 license from us. C++, everything unique to the 360 dev environment abstracted for you, and a full copy of Marble Blast Ultra source code sans the marble implementation (physics, rendering, control, etc).

Just be prepared to bring your checkbook, as the license is just the start--you'll need a dev kit as well as a distro/dev slot from MS. The positive side is you can fully develop your game within the TSE 360 sdk on PC, and once you get your dev kit and slot, you can can select the Xenon project and recomplile and deploy.

Final comment on the managed side of things: Quite frankly, we thought the same thing. When MS first approached us, we honestly brushed it off--we didn't think that managed code game development was even possible for any sort of interesting game.

After taking 3 weeks to port MBU from native C++ to a fully re-implemented managed Torque engine (which was several man-months, but not as much as you'd think to develop itself), adding in features to the core engine that didn't even exist in our C++ versions due to performance problems (polysoup collision and rendering for one), and not being able to see a difference in play performance, we decided it wasn't only possible, but it was a damned good idea.

[Quinton]

No ability to create hard media doesn't worry me a bunch.  Console manufacturers are always going to want tight control over the distribution channels to ensure they make the piles of money they want (or perhaps need -- to offset development costs) to make.  Let me distribute or sell my content via some online mechanism and I'm pretty happy. 

Managed code seems a bit silly to me in the modern world of MMUs and operating systems that run at a higher ring than user code, at least as far as solving the "don't subvert the system" problem.  Honestly you *should* be able to solve that without needing managed runtime environments, since you have hardware to do it for you.  It's not like the xbox360 is ARM7 based like gba -- it can effectively protect itself from the apps that it runs. 

That said, there are some really nice things about environments that are "safer" than C/C++ from a development and debugging standpoint.  If you can get the needed performance, hell, it can be a win.

-Q

[Trippy]

Managed code seems a bit silly to me in the modern world of MMUs and operating systems that run at a higher ring than user code, at least as far as solving the "don't subvert the system" problem.  Honestly you *should* be able to solve that without needing managed runtime environments, since you have hardware to do it for you.  It's not like the xbox360 is ARM7 based like gba -- it can effectively protect itself from the apps that it runs. 

The managed code is for ease of porting between XP (the development environment) and the 360.

[Stephen Zepp]

Managed code seems a bit silly to me in the modern world of MMUs and operating systems that run at a higher ring than user code, at least as far as solving the "don't subvert the system" problem.  Honestly you *should* be able to solve that without needing managed runtime environments, since you have hardware to do it for you.  It's not like the xbox360 is ARM7 based like gba -- it can effectively protect itself from the apps that it runs. 

The managed code is for ease of porting between XP (the development environment) and the 360.

And other platforms...(not OS's, platforms)

Keep in mind that MS in the keynote brought up cell phones, and they are calling it "Live Anywhere", not "PC to 360 Live"...

[Margalis]

Porting a 360 game to a cell phone...uh huh.

[Stephen Zepp]

Porting a 360 game to a cell phone...uh huh.

heh. the more you post, the more I think you didn't watch any of the keynote ;)

[Margalis]

I didn't. Why would I?

Cross compatibility between 360 and cell-phone development is a non-feature if there ever was one.

[Yoru]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. You could certainly make a 2D XBLA game that's similar to, if not identical to, a cellphone game.

How well it would do is another matter entirely, unless you make the next Tetris.

The nitpick, of course, being that most phones are SymbianOS, not WinCE or whatever the hell Microsoft puts on phones.

[Margalis]

Programming for small form-factor devices is very different. The lack of screen real-estate will force a redesign in any but the simplest of games. Maybe Snake, Joust and Tetris might work on a big and small screen but that is about it.

My final word on this subject is that this stuff seems like a cool toy for hobbyists, rather than a tool for indie devs or techies. It is the kind of thing that might appeal greatly to the people over at gamedev.net, and probably not to the people who do things like homebrew GBA games or homebrew Linux/MAME on XBox.

I understand the technology, the hardware and the libraries. Just let me use them. You don't have to help me, but don't get in the way either. That's why PC shareware and modding and such is popular and vibrant - nobody gets in your way. If you can think of it you can program it, given the appropriate skill.

[schild]

Beta Release tonight/tomorrow. I'm stoked. Now I just need to get signed up and shit.

[Stephen Zepp]

Beta Release tonight/tomorrow. I'm stoked. Now I just need to get signed up and shit.

Keep in mind that this is just a beta release of the framework, and that they will be adding a lot of functionality over the next several months, aiming for the first 1.0 release during the holiday season.

Also, if you were wondering, TorqueX is still under development, and is aimed at an initial release roughly the same time as XNA moves out of beta--possibly a bit sooner. For now, you can use Torque Game Builder for your scene construction, and at a minimum be able to export your scenes to an intermediate file and import them to TorqueX (and therefore, XNA).

[Krakrok]

Download here. Requires Visual C# 2005 Express Edition be installed first.

[Margalis]

Forums are full of newbs. I might check this out in a few months after some kinks are worked out.

[Stephen Zepp]

If you have any specific questions/issues, might want to send them my way (or even ask if we can do it here) and I'll see what I can find out for you. We've probably got the most combined experience with it (other than MS itself) since we've been working with various partnership releases for several months.

[Trippy]

XNA Game Studio Express officially released

You still need to ship source code around to share games with friends (who also have to sign up for XNA Creators Club) on Xbox 360.

[voodoolily]

We don't know if there will be restrictions on who can buy the software and who can create signed Xbox games and restrictions on how they can be distributed and how badly the developers are going to get screwed in terms of royalties if they decide to go with Microsoft as the publisher.

This was what I was thinking, too. Like The Movies. "Hey everybody! You can make your own games here! Hey, that one's not bad - oh, whoops, it's OUR property now. We own your ideas and time. And you paid us for it! Too bad for you!!"

[Stephen Zepp]

We don't know if there will be restrictions on who can buy the software and who can create signed Xbox games and restrictions on how they can be distributed and how badly the developers are going to get screwed in terms of royalties if they decide to go with Microsoft as the publisher.

This was what I was thinking, too. Like The Movies. "Hey everybody! You can make your own games here! Hey, that one's not bad - oh, whoops, it's OUR property now. We own your ideas and time. And you paid us for it! Too bad for you!!"

This is a myth that keeps being spread even though Microsoft has said many times that the author of the game has and keeps full rights to their product.

XNA/GSE is not a commercial distribution mechanism. It is a method for hobbiests to collaborate on "fun stuff"--hobbies.

Now the good news: GarageGames also announced that the Torque X binary is completely free, and we have released a version of the Torque Game Builder that publishes TGB scenes directly to our Torque X binary--all you have to do is to write your scripting in C# (Torque X does not in any way use TorqueScript).

You can take the GSE (XNA C# IDE plus libs) which is free, combined with the Torque X binary, which is free, the free 30 day Demo of our Torque Game Builder X,  and a membership in the Creator's Club ($99 for an entire year), and be playing a game you made on your PC directly on your retail XBox360 in minutes.

Enjoy!

[Margalis]

Why not add in distribution and make it 100x more attractive?

[schild]

Yea, the PC to 360 thing is a pain in the ass.

[Rasix]

pass!!!!

You're going to make me hit delete twice.. aren't you.

[Murgos]

Has anyone been using this thing yet?

How easy is it to set up the dev environment?  Can I get a "Hello World" up and exported to my 360 painlessly?

[Stephen Zepp]

Has anyone been using this thing yet?

How easy is it to set up the dev environment?  Can I get a "Hello World" up and exported to my 360 painlessly?

There are quite a few (I don't have exact numbers off the top of my head) people participating in the GarageGames TorqueX forums. Quick glance shows 111 "Getting Started" threads.

Realize that while the TorqueX binary is free, and the Torque Game Builder XNA edition has a 30 day free trial, to deploy to your retail 360 you will need to purchase a Microsoft "Creator's Club" account. All the rest of XNA Game Studio Express is free as far as I am aware.

[Stephen Zepp]

/necrobump AND /crosspost (do I get extra points for that?)

Looks like MS has smoothed out at least an initial plan for a pipeline from XNA to retail XBLA distribution....hate to be an indie that laughed at the whole XNA initiative and ignored it early on because they thought MS was just being greedy...