The Decision That Levels The Playing Field

[Sairon]

Paying for XNA at this time feels a bit like paying for being a part of a community built up of content from their members.

[Stephen Zepp]

I said I would be willing to pay up front for a sense of ownership but I didn't want to pay a subscription where it is implicit (explicit?) that I don't own my work.

I said exactly that, no more.  No less.  This is the same problem as the last time I tried to talk to you, worthless strawman attacks.

Dude, where does it say anywhere that using XNA means that you don't own your work? You are the one throwing "strawman" arguments around, not me.

[CmdrSlack]

Paying for XNA at this time feels a bit like paying for being a part of a community built up of content from their members.

So like paying to join the SA forums?

[Sairon]

Paying for XNA at this time feels a bit like paying for being a part of a community built up of content from their members.

So like paying to join the SA forums?

Hehe, yeah, needless to say I'm not a member there 

[Murgos]

I said I would be willing to pay up front for a sense of ownership but I didn't want to pay a subscription where it is implicit (explicit?) that I don't own my work.

I said exactly that, no more.  No less.  This is the same problem as the last time I tried to talk to you, worthless strawman attacks.

Dude, where does it say anywhere that using XNA means that you don't own your work? You are the one throwing "strawman" arguments around, not me.

You said that I didn't want to pay for the ability to use the XNA system.  Which was pure a bullshit made up thing to attack me on as I had jsut said I would pay up front but not a sub.  That is the definition of a STRAWMAN.

If I don't continue to subscribe to creators club then how am I going to use the content that I created since it is only available to creators club members?  I.e. I no longer own the content I created.

God, your so full of shit you don't even recognize it as it spews out of your mouth.

[schild]

Ahem.

[Trippy]

I said I would be willing to pay up front for a sense of ownership but I didn't want to pay a subscription where it is implicit (explicit?) that I don't own my work.

I said exactly that, no more.  No less.  This is the same problem as the last time I tried to talk to you, worthless strawman attacks.

Dude, where does it say anywhere that using XNA means that you don't own your work? You are the one throwing "strawman" arguments around, not me.

You said that I didn't want to pay for the ability to use the XNA system.  Which was pure a bullshit made up thing to attack me on as I had jsut said I would pay up front but not a sub.  That is the definition of a STRAWMAN.

If I don't continue to subscribe to creators club then how am I going to use the content that I created since it is only available to creators club members?  I.e. I no longer own the content I created.

God, your so full of shit you don't even recognize it as it spews out of your mouth.

What do you mean you no longer "own" the content you created? You are the one making stuff up. Microsoft does not suddenly steal your game's copyright when you upload it to your Xbox 360. Yes MS restricts what you can play on the Xbox 360 uploaded through XNA but the game is still sitting there on your PC's hard drive. You still own your game.

[Stephen Zepp]

I said I would be willing to pay up front for a sense of ownership but I didn't want to pay a subscription where it is implicit (explicit?) that I don't own my work.

I said exactly that, no more.  No less.  This is the same problem as the last time I tried to talk to you, worthless strawman attacks.

Dude, where does it say anywhere that using XNA means that you don't own your work? You are the one throwing "strawman" arguments around, not me.

You said that I didn't want to pay for the ability to use the XNA system.  Which was pure a bullshit made up thing to attack me on as I had jsut said I would pay up front but not a sub.  That is the definition of a STRAWMAN.

If I don't continue to subscribe to creators club then how am I going to use the content that I created since it is only available to creators club members?  I.e. I no longer own the content I created.

God, your so full of shit you don't even recognize it as it spews out of your mouth.

What do you mean you no longer "own" the content you created? You are the one making stuff up. Microsoft does not suddenly steal your game's copyright when you upload it to your Xbox 360. Yes MS restricts what you can play on the Xbox 360 uploaded through XNA but the game is still sitting there on your PC's hard drive. You still own your game.

And GSE, and the binary for Torque X, and the TGB-X tools, and everything else except for a little widget on your XBox360 that you are no longer paying for.

Thanks Trippy, I honestly thought it was just me.

[agathon]

Vitriol against Microsoft aside, the cross-platform aspect of this is pretty cool. Yeah, sure, there is a lot left out, and no game built for the 360 will take advantae of all that a high-end PC gaming rig has to offer. But as a hobbyist I would gladly trade a bit of the shiny for the cross-platform. As a first step this is not bad. I'd say the price point would be more attractive if it were a one-time $99 payment, though, with perhaps paying for additional features (networking, etc.) as they become available.

Oh, and I guess I'd need to care enough about consoles to own one. :)

That said, this could be fun to mess with just on the PC - sort of a NeverwinterNights++.

[Murgos]

Ahem.

Fine, whatever.  He can make up BS and attack me with it because he's got a red name and every one else can poo-poo that Microsoft controls the access rights to your work through their subscription service and license agreements and obviously none of that are valid issues.

I've said my piece, I've pointed out what, in my view, are two major flaws with this system I'm moving on.  You guys want to pay increasing costs of ownership over time and lose control of your work for any reason under the sun you go right on trucking.

[Trippy]

Ahem.

Fine, whatever.  He can make up BS and attack me with it because he's got a red name and every one else can poo-poo that Microsoft controls the access rights to your work through their subscription service and license agreements and obviously none of that are valid issues.

I've said my piece, I've pointed out what, in my view, are two major flaws with this system I'm moving on.  You guys want to pay increasing costs of ownership over time and lose control of your work for any reason under the sun you go right on trucking.

You do not lose control of your work. I'm not sure why you keep thinking that but let me give you another example. Let's say you are a photographer and you subscribe for one of those upload/sharing/gallery services. At some point you decide to stop paying the subscription fee. Now your photos you uploaded are "stuck" there. They won't let you download them back to your machine unless you resubscribe or pay a transfer fee. Hell some of them even charge you to download the originals when you are a subscriber (yes there really are services like that). However, you still have your originals on your machine unless you deleted them and you still own the copyrights on all your photos. Uploading them to the service doesn't suddenly mean you've given away all your rights to your photos.

So think of XNA Creator's Club as a service MS is providing that let's you run your XNA Windows XP games on an Xbox 360. If you stop paying for the service you obviously lose access to the service. You don't lose access to your game unless you happened to delete it from your Windows XP machine but that's not MS fault, just like if you made the mistake of deleting your original photos after you uploaded them to a service (and I know people who have done that, unfortunately), and you don't give up your rights on the game by using the service either.

[Murgos]

Why on earth do you think some example of a poor artist losing access to his work, effort and lively hood is a reasonable example for the benefits of a subscription service is beyond my ability to comprehend.

[Soln]

I don't like the tone this thread has taken.  People have a right to question anything if they're expected to invest in it (time, money, creativity, whatever).


/out

[Trippy]

Why on earth do you think some example of a poor artist losing access to his work, effort and lively hood is a reasonable example for the benefits of a subscription service is beyond my ability to comprehend.

I give up.

[Stephen Zepp]

The funniest thing is, you never freaking upload ANYTHING to microsoft, but folks are so stuck in their misconceptions that they don't even bother to ask.

Microsoft never sees a single line of your code, unless you send it to them. The Creators Club is a marketplace service you buy on YOUR 360, and when you deploy a game to the 360, it's via your LAN at your home.

[Trippy]

The funniest thing is, you never freaking upload ANYTHING to microsoft, but folks are so stuck in their misconceptions that they don't even bother to ask.

Microsoft never sees a single line of your code, unless you send it to them. The Creators Club is a marketplace service you buy on YOUR 360, and when you deploy a game to the 360, it's via your LAN at your home.

Except that the info on their Web site does say that you have to launch your game through a special launcher and the info implies that if you aren't subscribed the launcher doesn't work, which makes sense to me since MS is selling it as a service. Unfortunately Murgos seems to think he has a god-given right to run whatever games he wants to on his Xbox 360 so anything that restricts that is a limitation on his rights.

[Murgos]

I was going to post this as an edit above but I'll stick it down here so as not to abuse the feature:

Look, the artist example is flawed because there are other outlets for his work and the artist can choose not to use that or any other subscription hosting service and still have viable alternative distribution systems for his work.  If I take the time to make something specific to the 360, using it's controls, it's network system, it's conventions and features, it's memory system, graphics subsystem and other specific abilities (I am an ASIC developer, preach platform independence all you want, it's only true up to a certain extent.) and then Microsoft, for whatever reason, revokes my license (which I cannot seem to find a copy of without downloading the kit which bothers me also) and now I no longer control my creation.  I may own the copyright to the code but what is that worth to me?

Sure, as you point out, I can then rewrite portions of my work (possibly at great expenses of time and effort) and then compile and run it on a Windows PC.  So?  I could do that before, XNA Creators Club had, in that case, gained me exactly nothing.

Stephen Zepp is trying to sell a product.  Wider use of Garage Games Torque tools is a good thing for his company and I don't blame him for wanting to hype it and put positive spin on it but that does not mean I can't, or even shouldn't, voice the issues I see with this ownership model.

I don't like that the longer I want to use the service the more it costs me and I also don't like that if I decide not to use the service I lose the ability to access and use the content I have created.

Well, Zepp?  Do I have to have a subscription to Creators Club to run my packages on hardware I own or not?  Your last post seems to imply no, but that is pretty much counter to everything said so far and the language on the XNA website.

[Stephen Zepp]

I was going to post this as an edit above but I'll stick it down here so as not to abuse the feature:

Look, the artist example is flawed because there are other outlets for his work and the artist can choose not to use that or any other subscription hosting service and still have viable alternative distribution systems for his work.  If I take the time to make something specific to the 360, using it's controls, it's network system, it's conventions and features, it's memory system, graphics subsystem and other specific abilities (I am an ASIC developer, preach platform independence all you want, it's only true up to a certain extent.) and then Microsoft, for whatever reason, revokes my license (which I cannot seem to find a copy of without downloading the kit which bothers me also) and now I no longer control my creation.  I may own the copyright to the code but what is that worth to me?

Sure, as you point out, I can then rewrite portions of my work (possibly at great expenses of time and effort) and then compile and run it on a Windows PC.  So?  I could do that before, XNA Creators Club had, in that case, gained me exactly nothing.

Stephen Zepp is trying to sell a product.  Wider use of Garage Games Torque tools is a good thing for his company and I don't blame him for wanting to hype it and put positive spin on it but that does not mean I can't, or even shouldn't, voice the issues I see with this ownership model.

I don't like that the longer I want to use the service the more it costs me and I also don't like that if I decide not to use the service I lose the ability to access and use the content I have created.

Well, Zepp?  Do I have to have a subscription to Creators Club to run my packages on hardware I own or not?  Your last post seems to imply no, but that is pretty much counter to everything said so far and the language on the XNA website.

What was difficult to understand?

--you subscribe to Creators Club, which downloads the XNA framework to your retail 360.
--You make your game with GSE on your PC.
--via your LAN (emphasis added), you deploy from your PC to your 360.

Nothing is ever uploaded to Microsoft in this process.

[Stephen Zepp]

Separated this out:

Stephen Zepp is trying to sell a product.  Wider use of Garage Games Torque tools is a good thing for his company and I don't blame him for wanting to hype it and put positive spin on it but that does not mean I can't, or even shouldn't, voice the issues I see with this ownership model.

I'm not trying to sell a damned thing.
The Torque X binary is free.
GSE is free.
XNA is free.

If you want to deploy to your XBox 360, that's your call, and it's the only thing in this process that costs money. Microsoft (NOT GG) has elected to make that a subscription service, with two separate options: yearly, and a 4 month deal. If you join Creators Club, you get to use the TGB-X editor as well (which is not free, I admit).

Hey, guess what? XBLive Arcade is a subscription service too--I don't hear you complaining about what happens if you cancel that...

[Murgos]

What was difficult to understand?

--you subscribe to Creators Club, which downloads the XNA framework to your retail 360.
--You make your game with GSE on your PC.
--via your LAN (emphasis added), you deploy from your PC to your 360.

Nothing is ever uploaded to Microsoft in this process.

So, you think the answer to my concern is semantics?  What pipe the bits have to travel through to reach their destination?

Five or six times now I have expressed the concern that with this service I cannot predict when I will be allowed to execute my code on my hardware and you think I have a problem with what router is in between my computer and my XBOX?

Are you kidding me?

Edit:  And don't give me BS about how being included in this package doesn't mean anything to GG.  One of MS's most effective tools for market share has been getting people developing on their OS as a hobbist/student and gaining familiarity with their tools (and thus preference for working on them) prior to entering the work force.

Edit 2:  You know, I would be happy if MS wanted to break the Creators Club up into two products.  The first one being a purchased license for one XBOX (transferable) to compile and run code created with your XNA licence.  And the second one being a subscription distribution service where people who are subscribed can download each others XNA developed applications.

That would be perfectly peachy to me.

[bhodi]

Never has your ubersoft avatar been more apt, murgos.

[Roac]

Five or six times now I have expressed the concern that with this service I cannot predict when I will be allowed to execute my code on my hardware and you think I have a problem with what router is in between my computer and my XBOX?

If you don't like the licensing cost for the 360, there's an easy solution.  Run it on your PC.  That way, you can play your game without owing recurring cost to MS as well as stop acting like an ass to a dev.

[Murgos]

Sorry, I forgot that I am not allowed to disagree as to the amazing value of this service.  So, Roac, my choices are to accept the status quo and stfu or accept the status quo and stfu?

Thanks for your input, it's been very helpful.

[Roac]

Sorry, I forgot that I am not allowed to disagree as to the amazing value of this service.  So, Roac, my choices are to accept the status quo and stfu or accept the status quo and stfu?

You're allowed, and people are equally allowed to call bullshit when you spout nonsensical crap like this:

If I don't continue to subscribe to creators club then how am I going to use the content that I created since it is only available to creators club members?  I.e. I no longer own the content I created.

Because it's not only available to creators club members.  It's available on your PC, and you still own it.  No, you can't play it on your 360 without fronting a recurring cost, but that has nothing to do with anything you've actually said. 

[Strazos]

I think Murgos just has the problem that if he ends his sub, he can no longer play games he had already uploaded onto his 360 when he was paying the fee to MS. I can kind of see why that might be a problem with some people.

[Dundee]

Sorry, I forgot that I am not allowed to disagree as to the amazing value of this service.  So, Roac, my choices are to accept the status quo and stfu or accept the status quo and stfu?

Thanks for your input, it's been very helpful.

You could always email an expose to tips@kotaku.com.

[DataGod]

Was able to talk to some of the Xbox team at GDC, good stuff going on there, I'm wondering if there will be a student rate on this. Of course there are other ways to monetize this that could lower the cost but eh....you got to get them hooked early :)

[Roac]

I think Murgos just has the problem that if he ends his sub, he can no longer play games he had already uploaded onto his 360 when he was paying the fee to MS. I can kind of see why that might be a problem with some people.

I think that sucks too, and I wouldn't pay it if I had a 360.  But I also only use Visual Studio Express at home, or else Sharpdevelop, or just skip MS altogether and mess with Java.  Or take my work laptop home and work on that.  I think I still have Pascal install disks if I'm really frisky.  There's enough tools out there that if I have an itch to develop something, I don't have to pay anyone anything and so refuse to do so.  And that's fine, since no matter how cheap Stephen thinks $9/mo is for a hobby, that's still $9/mo too much for some people.  But Murgos didn't nail Stephen for that, he went off the deep end with how he doesn't own his stuff anymore.

[Murgos]

I disagree Roac, I've already commented on why I feel so extensively so I will leave it there.

[Margalis]

That is kind of sucky. What happens if MS discontinues the program?

[Venkman]

That is kind of sucky. What happens if MS discontinues the program?

They've either worked it out already or would need to in time, but my guess would be one of the following:

• You don't get to use the Xbox 360 to play your game anymore, but can still (obviously) play it on your PC.
• They collect one more one-time fee from you to allow you to upload content to your Xbox 360, but they turn off the ability to share it.

Companies pay to license console development platforms. If they stop paying, they nominally need to stop using that platform. XNA is not so different from that except to gamers who've become used to development and deployment on the "free" PC.

People will pay this fee gladly because of the opportunities it presents. Anyone can create a casual game these days, but getting it out to the public in the highly contested marketplace it has become can be a bear for any but companies with established publishing/distributing partners. For the PC crowd you get things like Pjio and Kongregate.

But console casual games are virgin territory. They won't be for much longer of course, but the perception of much higher conversion rates interests anyone (ie, GGs own Marble Blast was something like, what, 55% conversion rate for awhile on XBLA, during the first 4 or so months?). And Xbox 360 is way out front on this, from both an integration and seamless distribution standpoint. The others will eventually catch up of course.

Whether you agree with the concept of the fee or not is irrelevant because the fee will be paid. Because participants already paid the expensive upfront charges of good-enough PC, Xbox 360, and Broadband. The fee for XNA sharing is like helping your buddy fund a FPS game host server. Low and worth it.