Genesis

[Trippy]

Some of you may remember Creating Kaos, the reality video series documenting the efforts of Damon Grow to create the world's largest MMOG. Well somebody else, also living in San Francisco (is it the water?) -- if you can call living out of a van living -- is trying to do him one better and do a similar thing, except all by himself. The game is called "Genesis" and the main Web site is at:

http://www.playgenesis.com/index2.htm

The blog/design doc is at:

http://insidegenesis.blogspot.com/

and you can watch a video of the terrain builder engine here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-636999085452619198&hl=en

The design doc reads like it was written by somebody who is a disciple of Raph Koster (and he does post to Raph's blog) except way way more over the top than even Raph -- i.e. it's like the kitchen sink of virtual world design ideas all mashed together. Oh and he's admitted he's never played an MMORPG before.

Edit: fixed typos

[Velorath]

Oh and he's admitted he's never played an MMORPG before.

That might actually be a blessing.

[Trippy]

Oh and he's admitted he's never played an MMORPG before.

That might actually be a blessing.

Except that he claims to "know" MMOGs:

I have never played a MMOG in my life. You might be wondering how in the world I am designing one then. Just because I don't have experience playing something doesn't mean that I know nothing about it. I have never sailed a ship, yet I know what sailing is. I have never been to France, but I know they drink fine wine and eat stinky cheese. Get the point?

[schild]

Here's the problem with it:

He's getting press.

Thus it is definitively proven that the internet is full of retards and people that like watching retards.

MY THESIS IS COMPLETE. I CAN STOP WATCHING TV.

[Murgos]

I have never sailed a ship, yet I know what sailing is. I have never been to France, but I know they drink fine wine and eat stinky cheese. Get the point?

What's the difference between a spinnaker and a spanker then?  Don't know?  Whoops, there goes your mast 2000 miles out from land.  Buh-bye.

I expect a similar outcome for his MMOG.

I am a clever guy.  Took a lot of math and physics in college.  I can calculate the simple mechanics of the type neccessary for a sailing ship mostly in my head.  I guarantee that the first 20 or so times I were to try to build a sailing ship from scratch without the benefit of the vast experience all ready accrued of what NOT to do I would be risking life and limb to try and sail one.

Same problem here.  I don't care how smart he is.

[Dren]

Oh and he's admitted he's never played an MMORPG before.

That might actually be a blessing.

Except that he claims to "know" MMOGs:

I have never played a MMOG in my life. You might be wondering how in the world I am designing one then. Just because I don't have experience playing something doesn't mean that I know nothing about it. I have never sailed a ship, yet I know what sailing is. I have never been to France, but I know they drink fine wine and eat stinky cheese. Get the point?

That is some of the worst "reasoning" I've ever read.  I wouldn't touch this thing with a 500,000 foot Internet connection.  He's insane.

[Merusk]

I like this line of thinking.  It's opened worlds of new career paths and lucrative opportunities to me.

I'm not a doctor, but I know how the heart works and what veins do.  The internet gives me ready access to diagrams and information, clearly I can preform open heart surgery. Out of my van.

[Venkman]

This game is about his blog, and his blog is about him getting a job in the industry. The idea itself is irrelevant because everyone's got ideas. You're rated on what you do, not what you say, and he won't win any friends by a) never actually playing something he professes a mastery of; and, b) specifically wanting to do it all himself. This is what always separates weekend-warrior armchair designers from people who actually work for a living: the former doesn't get just how many people are involved and required in everything.

It's a nice way to grab some 15 minutes though. Whooptie-do.

[Riggswolfe]

He's no longer working alone. I read the FAQ for his game and my first thought was "this will never, ever see the light of day". He's claiming like 60+ races and classes, political rankings for characters, etc.

Way, way over ambitious. Sounds like my ultimate game design plan from my 20s.

Though I did notice he has no plans for computer controlled enemies. Every single creature and person in the game is played by a player.

In other words, if it ever gets completed he's making UO2, at the height of the PK years. Siinj and friends should rejoice!

[Roac]

I can do something the first time, with no background or research into the topic, because I am just that damn smart and none of these guys who have spent entire careers doing it know what the hell they're doing.  So there.

[stray]

It's easier to fly to the moon than it is to make an mmo.

[Soln]

the best summary I heard yesterday:  WUBBLE.   aka "Web 2.0 Bubble"

[Kia]

My first thought was he read the Dawn FAQ and thought it was the best MMO idea ever.  Breeding, permadeath, it's got everything but the fetusapaults.

[Jayce]

My first thought was he read the Dawn FAQ and thought it was the best MMO idea ever.  Breeding, permadeath, it's got everything but the fetusapaults.

Funny, GL-Jeff was the first person I thought of when I read those excerpts from his blog.  He's got all the arrogance.

However, Mark Twain approves: "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure."

[raydeen]

I like this line of thinking.  It's opened worlds of new career paths and lucrative opportunities to me.

I'm not a doctor, but I know how the heart works and what veins do.  The internet gives me ready access to diagrams and information, clearly I can preform open heart surgery. Out of my van.

Seriously though, his best bet is to license his tech out. The world building video was kinda impressive for being a one man show.

[Nija]

It's like he's proud to never have played a mmorpg. Like it's a hard thing to do.

He's too good to go down to Best Buy and pick up a copy of WoW and catass.

Come play my game! BY GAMERS FOR GAMERS!

Good luck buddy - you'll need it.

[Righ]

It's like he's proud to never have played a mmorpg. Like it's a hard thing to do.

Well, you didn't manage to avoid playing them, loser. Most of the people reading about MMORPGs at this level will have played one. By claiming not to have, and elevating himself based on that, he lords over all his readers from an ivory tower founded on just one lie.

His ideas are old and shitty. This means he has played these games. Lying attention whore +1.

[Venkman]

"From the mouths of babes..."

Seriously, you don't need to have played these games to understand how to deliver an analogous experience to some players. Knowing what's not worked previously can potentially close a mind to what could work now. Ideas are about timing too and sometimes a good idea can come from anywhere.

MMORPGs themselves borrow conventions from many other genres that themselves haven't stood still either. WoW questing, for example is not some new and wonderful thing never seen before. The mass compulsion to partake is part of a self-fulfilling prophecy based on repeatedly-discussed success. But otherwise, it's the game anyone who's ever played an RPG has already played. Until the endgame. But even that is just about more people realizing a nascent desire to spend craploads of time doing the same thing again and again rather than there being some fundamentally new experience to be had there that's never been before.

Not that I stand up for this guy of course. See above. I just don't think you need to have played these games since the days of The Realm in order to design games for both current and new players. In fact, a large part of the relatively slow growth this genre was enjoying before FFXI>WoW>GW could be attributed to veterans of the genre designing for veteran sensibilities. Not a good way to capture the new user.

The most successful titles in the genre (either by how well they scale to the business behind them, or how they capture zillions of people) were from companies coming from the outside with new rules.

[WindupAtheist]

Even though I've already been beaten to the punch repeatedly on this, I'll just go ahead and say it anyway:

lol fetuspults

I'm shocked the dude actually has any sort of code at all to demonstrate.  He's already infinitely ahead of GL-Jeff in that regard.

[Murgos]

"From the mouths of babes..."

Seriously, you don't need to have played these games to understand how to deliver an analogous experience to some players. Knowing what's not worked previously can potentially close a mind to what could work now. Ideas are about timing too and sometimes a good idea can come from anywhere.

Not as implemented by an army of one they aren't.  If your making a desk in your garage?  Maybe.  If your trying to make robust modern 3-D networked software?  HAHAHAHA.

[tkinnun0]

Yes, because a big professional team guarantees an enjoyable Star Wars experience.

[WindupAtheist]

If the dude had the people and resources to actually accomplish something, and a plan that didn't sound like Dawn 2: The Quickening, I wouldn't mind seeing what a complete MMO neophyte would produce.  As it is, this is total vapor and we all know it.  Let's not pretend otherwise, even hypothetically.

[Murgos]

Yes, because a big professional team guarantees an enjoyable Star Wars experience.

I said dick-all about enjoyable.  The guy can't make A Star Wars experience.   None at all.

[Venkman]

Not as implemented by an army of one they aren't.  If your making a desk in your garage?  Maybe.  If your trying to make robust modern 3-D networked software?  HAHAHAHA.

I know. I was specifically responding to the contention that you needed vast experience playing the largely-iterative experiences that dominate this genre (by number of active accounts) in order to design something new. And note that I said design. Design is pretty easy. It's the development that trips everyone up, particularly because the Real World(tm) forces changes to that design.

Anyone can sit back, hack out a design document, throw some screenshots and animatics up and get covered by what passes for the local media. Getting it out there, well, in regards to this project, that's not worth even discussing. That's why I said "Not that I stand up for this guy of course. See above {This game is about his blog, and his blog is about him getting a job in the industry}"

[Endie]

I know. I was specifically responding to the contention that you needed vast experience playing the largely-iterative experiences that dominate this genre (by number of active accounts) in order to design something new. And note that I said design. Design is pretty easy. It's the development that trips everyone up, particularly because the Real World(tm) forces changes to that design.

I disagree.  Above a certain level of complexiy, design becomes increasingly hard to get right, especially when you depend on some form of balance where your state machine has three digits of variables.  Certainly not "pretty easy".  Coding that is a challenge.  But a good design is rarer than good code.  I speak as the coding recipient of many horrible designs.  And, I have no doubt, as the creator of some, ahem, sub-optimal designs.

If you mean that the barriers to entry for writing a design, even a crap one, are much lower than those to creating at least a barely-functioning but horrible piece of code, then i agree comepltely.

[SnakeCharmer]

Here's the problem with it:

He's getting press.

Thus it is definitively proven that the internet is full of retards and people that like watching retards.

MY THESIS IS COMPLETE. I CAN STOP WATCHING TV.

Thus f13 was born.