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Author Topic: Buildings and doors  (Read 7089 times)
Kenrick
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Posts: 1401


on: August 10, 2006, 02:59:23 PM

This isn't a bug, but rather something that bugs me.

Is it really necessary to have a separate "instance" and load screen for all buildings?  Even worse, even some rooms within buildings require a further "instance"/load screen?

For example, the Comb & Wattle Inn... Having to double click the door, walk into a black hole, then wait through a loading screen just to go into a rather small inn is quite annoying.  Then once inside the inn, having to repeat the process to get into the ranger's TINY room... what's the point?  Why can't it at least be seamless once inside the inn?  Same goes for some of those little hobbit-size farm houses.

I guess what bugs me is that every little thing that takes away from the seamless feel of the world is hugely detrimental to me.  My favorite mmorpg's of all time all have one common theme of at least a somewhat seamless feel (UO, AC1, WoW).  I know it's not feasible for a game world of this scale to be completely seamless, but some of the load screens in this game so far feel like overkill.
WayAbvPar
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Posts: 19247


Reply #1 on: August 10, 2006, 03:16:31 PM

Doubleclicking the door and THEN having to walk through it is kind of annoying too. It should only require on action to get through the door.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

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Calandryll
Developers
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Would you kindly produce a web game.


Reply #2 on: August 10, 2006, 04:07:04 PM

This isn't a bug, but rather something that bugs me.

Is it really necessary to have a separate "instance" and load screen for all buildings?  Even worse, even some rooms within buildings require a further "instance"/load screen?

For example, the Comb & Wattle Inn... Having to double click the door, walk into a black hole, then wait through a loading screen just to go into a rather small inn is quite annoying.  Then once inside the inn, having to repeat the process to get into the ranger's TINY room... what's the point?  Why can't it at least be seamless once inside the inn?  Same goes for some of those little hobbit-size farm houses.

I guess what bugs me is that every little thing that takes away from the seamless feel of the world is hugely detrimental to me.  My favorite mmorpg's of all time all have one common theme of at least a somewhat seamless feel (UO, AC1, WoW).  I know it's not feasible for a game world of this scale to be completely seamless, but some of the load screens in this game so far feel like overkill.
All of the buildings have instanced spaces, so unfortunately that won't change. As far as instances within a building, we do that very rarely and there is actually a reason for it. I am not sure how far you've gotten so I don't want to spoil anything, but there is a good reason with regards to the story in that quest for why the ranger is in his own instanced room.
Calandryll
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Reply #3 on: August 10, 2006, 04:27:23 PM

Doubleclicking the door and THEN having to walk through it is kind of annoying too. It should only require on action to get through the door.
A bunch of others have said that too. I actually have that in my top issues list.
Rasix
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Reply #4 on: August 10, 2006, 04:36:51 PM

Doubleclicking the door and THEN having to walk through it is kind of annoying too. It should only require on action to get through the door.
A bunch of others have said that too. I actually have that in my top issues list.

Especially since if a bunch of people are trying to open the door, it can give you that "General Error". 

One quibble with the door instance thing, when you haven't done the prereqs to do the berries quest from the Archet jail, it gives you an error instead of just ignoring the request or allowing you to entire the jail without the quest being available.  Caused me to miss the quest on my champion.

-Rasix
Trippy
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Reply #5 on: August 10, 2006, 07:03:46 PM

This isn't a bug, but rather something that bugs me.

Is it really necessary to have a separate "instance" and load screen for all buildings?  Even worse, even some rooms within buildings require a further "instance"/load screen?
It's necessary because the interiors are bigger than the exteriors.
Llava
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Posts: 4602

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Reply #6 on: August 10, 2006, 11:33:46 PM

This isn't a bug, but rather something that bugs me.

Is it really necessary to have a separate "instance" and load screen for all buildings?  Even worse, even some rooms within buildings require a further "instance"/load screen?
It's necessary because the interiors are bigger than the exteriors.


That doesn't require an instance, though, or a separate load.

City of Heroes has a very similar situation with its buildings- which is why the interiors of said buildings are located deep underground.  Of course, as far as the players know they just walk through a door and come out the other side of the door.  But the "interiors" of these buildings are completely separate from the "exteriors".

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Trippy
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Posts: 23391


Reply #7 on: August 11, 2006, 12:33:45 AM

This isn't a bug, but rather something that bugs me.

Is it really necessary to have a separate "instance" and load screen for all buildings?  Even worse, even some rooms within buildings require a further "instance"/load screen?
It's necessary because the interiors are bigger than the exteriors.
That doesn't require an instance, though, or a separate load.

City of Heroes has a very similar situation with its buildings- which is why the interiors of said buildings are located deep underground.  Of course, as far as the players know they just walk through a door and come out the other side of the door.  But the "interiors" of these buildings are completely separate from the "exteriors".
I disagree. The interiors of the non-mission buildings (stores, Icon, City Hall, etc.) look "to scale" to me -- i.e. they are <= size of the exterior of the building which would lead me to believe that the "interiors" are part of the map and the door is a "transition" effect. I.e. if you took the door away you could see inside the interior. It's also presumably why you show up properly and move around on the map screen when you are inside such a building (zoom in and check it out for yourself).
Calandryll
Developers
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Would you kindly produce a web game.


Reply #8 on: August 11, 2006, 11:50:48 AM

Doubleclicking the door and THEN having to walk through it is kind of annoying too. It should only require on action to get through the door.
A bunch of others have said that too. I actually have that in my top issues list.
http://beta.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=9666#post9666

If you have time, please add your comments in this thread too. I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks!
WayAbvPar
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Posts: 19247


Reply #9 on: August 11, 2006, 11:56:43 AM

Done. So far I am in the minority it seems. The world would be so much better if everyone would just bow to my endless wisdom!

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
Llava
Contributor
Posts: 4602

Rrava roves you rong time


Reply #10 on: August 11, 2006, 12:02:13 PM

This isn't a bug, but rather something that bugs me.

Is it really necessary to have a separate "instance" and load screen for all buildings?  Even worse, even some rooms within buildings require a further "instance"/load screen?
It's necessary because the interiors are bigger than the exteriors.
That doesn't require an instance, though, or a separate load.

City of Heroes has a very similar situation with its buildings- which is why the interiors of said buildings are located deep underground.  Of course, as far as the players know they just walk through a door and come out the other side of the door.  But the "interiors" of these buildings are completely separate from the "exteriors".
I disagree. The interiors of the non-mission buildings (stores, Icon, City Hall, etc.) look "to scale" to me -- i.e. they are <= size of the exterior of the building which would lead me to believe that the "interiors" are part of the map and the door is a "transition" effect. I.e. if you took the door away you could see inside the interior. It's also presumably why you show up properly and move around on the map screen when you are inside such a building (zoom in and check it out for yourself).


You can verify that the interiors are deep underground by teaming with someone, selecting them, and having either them or yourself enter one of these buildings.  You can see the target reticle is either very high (if you're in the building) or very low (if they're in the building).

Some buildings are roughly to scale, many are not.  The Portal Corporation buildings in Peregrine Island, for instance, have far larger interiors than exteriors.  Regardless, though, I assure you that this is how it works.  You can verify it the way listed above- additionally, you can test by having someone on the edge of "recall friend" range, having them enter a building and they're out of range, but have them exit the building and walk to the side opposite you and they'll still be in range.  Though that's a massive pain in the ass and can only be done in Independence Port, I believe.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Rasix
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Posts: 14970

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Reply #11 on: August 11, 2006, 12:26:17 PM

Done. So far I am in the minority it seems. The world would be so much better if everyone would just bow to my endless wisdom!

Yes, seems people want a sense of realism when opening doors.. in a world of elves, hobbits, and magic.  OKEY DOKEY, DR. JONES.

-Rasix
Calandryll
Developers
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Would you kindly produce a web game.


Reply #12 on: August 11, 2006, 12:44:39 PM

Done. So far I am in the minority it seems. The world would be so much better if everyone would just bow to my endless wisdom!
Seems fairly mixed. Realism vs. functionality is always an interesting debate.
Yegolev
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Reply #13 on: August 14, 2006, 02:48:53 PM

My post was, of course, the most illuminated.  Go all the way to satisfy the immersion people by fully animating everything, like that Bree-door I heard about, BUT the player entering the instance is immediately warped in when [double-]clicking on the door.  People might still complain that they don't get to see themselves walk through the door, but there are two solutions: double-box (nyuk, nyuk, nyuk) or allow some sort of Options toggle "Let me waste my life four seconds at a time" to prevent them from entering the instance until the animation is complete.

That can't be hard to do.

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Bunk
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Reply #14 on: August 24, 2006, 05:45:14 PM

Played a little last night, and I'm mixed on the doors. If no one else is involved it makes sense - you activate the door to open it, then walk in to the door to go through. That actually makes sense. It becomes a problem when multiple people start trying to open the same door however.

What I don't like is the look of the doors. The flat black wall in the open doorway just looks off. NWN did a nice job by simply having a bit of non traversable space past the door frame that you could see, so it doesn't look like you're entering a black hole. My other gripe is the door frames themselves look silly. They all seem to stick a foot into or out of the room, and have frames built out of 10 x 10s.

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sam, an eggplant
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Reply #15 on: August 24, 2006, 07:11:37 PM

Why are all buildings instanced? Many adventure areas aren't, and players are actually competing for resources there. Players only return to town briefly to manage quests and sell off loot. Are you afraid there won't be enough room for the roleplayers to do whatever roleplayers do in the inns or something, or is it a technical limitation of some kind?

Obviously too late to change now, but let me put in my vote for as little instancing as possible. Instances should only be used to alleviate resource contention and in some cases advance the storyline, to make the players feel like heros instead of automatons lining up to kill a boss for loot, and even that can be addressed by providing sufficient content, more paths to advancement, so players don't bunch up. Most instancing is just plain lazy design.
Trippy
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Reply #16 on: August 24, 2006, 07:23:50 PM

Why are all buildings instanced?
The communal buildings aren't "instanced" as in only you or your group can be in it -- they are separate "zones" cause the interiors are bigger than the exteriors.
sam, an eggplant
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Reply #17 on: August 24, 2006, 07:49:09 PM

Yes, I've played the alpha. The bigger inside than outside thing doesn't make any sense; just make the whole thing bigger. It's either a design decision or a technical limitation.
Llava
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Reply #18 on: August 25, 2006, 08:06:57 AM

Yes, I've played the alpha. The bigger inside than outside thing doesn't make any sense; just make the whole thing bigger. It's either a design decision or a technical limitation.

They'd have to redesign all the buildings to do that.

Much easier would be like I suggested: put the interiors of the buildings underground, beneath their exteriors.  It can still be a separate "box" while still in the same "zone", thus requiring no new load screen.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Trippy
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Posts: 23391


Reply #19 on: August 25, 2006, 08:25:47 AM

Yes, I've played the alpha. The bigger inside than outside thing doesn't make any sense; just make the whole thing bigger. It's either a design decision or a technical limitation.

They'd have to redesign all the buildings to do that.

Much easier would be like I suggested: put the interiors of the buildings underground, beneath their exteriors.  It can still be a separate "box" while still in the same "zone", thus requiring no new load screen.
It's not that simple cause LOTRO uses a streaming system for loading world geometry so they would have to stream in building interiors as you get close to them even if you don't enter them so it's a tradeoff.
Nija
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Posts: 2136


Reply #20 on: September 15, 2006, 12:01:22 PM

Yes, seems people want a sense of realism when opening doors.. in a world of elves, hobbits, and magic.  OKEY DOKEY, DR. JONES.

Yes, they do. Because it's a fucking door. One of the many amazingly annoying things in this game.
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