Costume Changes - is this really a good idea?

[jpark]

While I have not done it myself there are a few tweaks I will perform.  But in talking to others that have changed their constumes it appears - if I understand correctly - that the entire costume can be changed (shape remains the same etc.).
 
My concern is the pace of fad.  If one costume becomes popular, and suddenly increases in frequency it may impact unique looks in the game.  Before this patch if you wanted to change your look you leveled a brand new character.

As a compromise, perhaps there should be a minimum time frame for alterations to a costume - e.g. you can perform this once every 10 levels or once per month.

As an odd analogy we saw some of this in shadowbane with respect to build templates.  Rapid leveling and respec allowed uber builds that someone may have spent months testing on their own - to suddenly spread like wild fire.  In my view, such rapid changes eroded identity given the rate at which others could adopt.

[HaemishM]

Considering you can only add another character slot at levels 20, 30 and 40, meaning you can only have at most 4 variations of the same character (or 5 for supergroups), I don't think I'd be worried about this being a problem. Unless I misunderstood the way tailoring works, as I haven't played with it yet.

[Lanei]

You can only add another costume slot at the levels Haemish mentioned, but that gives you eight costumes in total, since each look has a supergroup mode.

But I don't really think thats what jpark had in mind.  It sounded to me that he was more worried about there being a costume flavor of the month.  Really the biggest thing preventing that, In my opinion, is that there is no in-game advantage to be had from looking a certain way.  And there is certainly an in-game DISadvantage to trying to 'keep up with the JLA,' as it were, as you'll be spending influence on cosmetic alterations that could be better spend (at least below the level cap) on enhancements, which DO confer an in-game advantage.

[Sky]

It's only a costume, not a respec. Sheesh. Who cares if green tights are all the rage and every chucklehead starts to wear them? All the easier to spot the chuckleheads imo.

[Rasix]

If it was anything other than cosmetic, I'd say it'd be a potential problem.  But it's just window dressing..

[eldaec]

Fads are not entirely unknown in comic books you know ;)

[Murgos]

If all the retards decide to dress up in white long johns, bowler hats and combat boots it just means it's easier for me to spot the retards.

That was only an example, btw.   I have nothing against A Clockwork Orange or any of its psychotic followers.

[CmdrSlack]

Yep, not a big deal, IMO.

In fact, I think that CS should be able to put a big red "R" on every retard's costume that CAN'T be changed, simply for easier identification.

This comment was made with all apologies to "The Scarlet Letter."

[Sky]

Was it UO that allowed staff to tag avatars with notes? "This guy is an idiot, ignore him" kinda thing, or "I like to exploit".

I remember seeing that in some game...

[WayAbvPar]

Remind me again of the policy regarding copyrighted character names and images? I played in a group last night with a complete fucktard (I think it may have been his first night playing...either that, or he is actually mentally challenged). His character name? WOLVERINE. His costume? Yellow and blue spandex. He even said "I am going to take leaping next level, since that is what the real Wolverine would do.".

[daveNYC]

He even said "I am going to take leaping next level, since that is what the real Wolverine would do.".

He's the dim bulb on the marquee of life.

[jpark]

If it was anything other than cosmetic, I'd say it'd be a potential problem.  But it's just window dressing..

I gather that is the sentiment here and while logical enough - I am not sure I follow it completely.  In clarification - yes I am talking about fads - with rapid costume changes.

My impression is that one of key elements of the value proposition of this game (stable, graphics, genre, side kicking, solo content) the "look" you can achieve.  It may not be important to you guys - but I think it may be important to the "masses"

/emote raises his hand - he is one of the masses :)

As an aside, I saw a guild on our server (protector) called "5th column" and sure enough every member looked  and was named in a manner consistent with that convention.  It was an impressive display of "roleplay"(although taken to extremes this could be a political liability for the game given the Nazis theme).

[Rasix]

It may not be important to you guys - but I think it may be important to the "masses"

/emote raises his hand - he is one of the masses :)

Umm... so is everyone here.  And all the masses except you just thought your concerns were ridiculous.

[Murgos]

If you could get everyone on the server to make red, yellow and green costumes and then go stand all bunched up somewhere you could duplicate famous works of art.

[Sky]

You realized BC was considering a 5th column ripoff subgroup, right? :P Thus my infamous mangling of deutsch pointed out by a foreign grammar nazi. Nachtemorden, bitches! (just deleted him, actually)

I still don't understand why you think costume changes are bad.

I'm not one of the masses, though. I'm a delicate and unique snowflake fallen upon the tongue of a beautiful angel.

[Alluvian]

Wow, Sky is getting tongue from an angel.

Anyway, the whole point of having a cool costume system is so you can look DIFFERENT from others.  Why would you think people would use what is effectively a costume respec to look more like others?  I personally will use it if I ever see too many other people looking like me.  Or in the case of my troll I forgot to give him his wonderful horns.  Now I can add them back.

[jpark]

I still don't understand why you think costume changes are bad.

I'm not one of the masses, though. I'm a delicate and unique snowflake fallen upon the tongue of a beautiful angel.

hehe.  Ice Blaster in the making :)

I should refrain from coming across as "this is bad" instead pose this as "is this a risk?".  My assumption is that for many players, myself included, part of the appeal of the game is the customization of the avatar.  This has no strategic significance as others above rightly point out, it's just eye candy.

In looking at the reviews, player reactions, and my own - character generation holds much appeal in this game because of the incredible visual control we have.  If this is a benefit - its value could be eroded by imitation.  Who would imitate?  The point is not what kind of player would choose to imitate, but rather whether such players exist in numbers to imitate thus impacting part of the appeal of the game.

An attempt at another analogy: EQ.  On my server (2 years ago?), after prodigeous effort, I was the first to my knowledge to have high end cultural armor for trolls (which was Black).  I was a pretty rare sight running around in black armor.  Then armor dyes were introduced.  Anyone could change their appearance at any time to anything at some monetary expense.  Black became very common all of sudden.  The consensus at least among my mates was that armor dyes in some ways ruined this aspect of the game.  

With armor dyes in EQ, if you had a color scheme that rocked for you - it could be adopted by others almost immediately if they felt it worked for them.  No barriers to imitation.  

If this is what players truely want I accept that - just exploring possible consequences.

[Rasix]

If image was something you'd have to fight for, I'd say yes, this is a "risk".

But right now any image can be copied. ANY.  I can look at someone in game and go back to the character creator and boom, I have the same thing.  Hell, I can even have the same name if I add some spaces at the end.

Does this matter if someone does this at level 20 opposed to start up? No, not really.  Hell, the guy at level 20 has to pay for it and he's stuck with the body type he selected at start up.  

Now say they added a quest where you could hue your blaster attack and then all of the sudden they add it to character creation or make it available for 10 influence, then yes, there's a risk of pissing people off.  

But really, uniqueness is not even an issue in this game. Everyone's a target for imitation already and always has been.

[jpark]

But right now any image can be copied. ANY.  I can look at someone in game and go back to the character creator and boom, I have the same thing.  Hell, I can even have the same name if I add some spaces at the end. .

Interesting points Rasix.  Two comments:

Leveling costs - you can go back to the character generator and produce a clone - but a level 1 clone.  If the person your imitating is at level 40, barring sidekicking, it will be a long time before you cross paths.  The cost here is sorta hidden - the time you spend leveling your fresh character.  I accept this as a "cost" and its reasonable to me (before the new tailoring options).

Names - yup you could.  For name fanatics (like myself), I sometimes reserve variations of the same spelling of name giving me "ownership".  Of course there are endless variations, but if I have Aztec, Azteck, Aztech and someone comes up with AztechZ is not quite the same to me.  In sum, I am happy with their current naming conventions and rules which are pretty standard for a MMORPG in my understanding.

[Phred]

If all the retards decide to dress up in white long johns, bowler hats and combat boots it just means it's easier for me to spot the retards.

That was only an example, btw.   I have nothing against A Clockwork Orange or any of its psychotic followers.

Damn, I wish you could do a droogie costume actually. heh

I'm actually quite happy with my existing costume so I used my alternate slot to try to do a street clothes secret identity sort of costume. Unfortunately the character builder is really limited for that, I ended up with a guy in a white muscle shirt and blue jeans. Was thinking of the Clark Kent grey suit look but figured that was too obvious. As my character is dark skinned, I was especially unhappy with the limited hair styles available. I had in mind a 60's looking afro. What I would have liked to do would have been 60's afro, shirt and kilt like Samuel Jackson's character in 51'st state. heh.

[HaemishM]

With armor dyes in EQ, if you had a color scheme that rocked for you - it could be adopted by others almost immediately if they felt it worked for them.  No barriers to imitation.  

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Or... so fucking what? I'm not really seeing the problem here, especially with CoH. So someone can change their costume to imitate you? How often are you likely to see that person? You can change your own costume, as well.

I guess I'm just not seeing the problem.

[jpark]

I'm actually quite happy with my existing costume so I used my alternate slot to try to do a street clothes secret identity sort of costume.

Now it would be neat if there was a game consequence to this provided we had designated set of officially recognized "street cloths" to choose from.

The idea could be to enter certain zones and wear your street cloths.  If you don't you could be hounded by the press or "paparezi" (spelling?) which would crowd around you and pester you by alerting your prey to your approach.

If you attacked in street cloths, or you costume swap in front the press, or use super powers while in street cloths - you fail to obtain any experience points.

Just thinking of ways your idea could be taken to have strategic value in the game while adding to atmosphere.

[jpark]

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Or... so fucking what? I'm not really seeing the problem here, especially with CoH. So someone can change their costume to imitate you? How often are you likely to see that person? You can change your own costume, as well.

I guess I'm just not seeing the problem.

One more example that may help.  In EQ some gear is coveted because of its look.  Weapons, armor, helms you name it.  Epics are the best example - most epics for sometime now have been inferior to high level drops but retain their value I think due to their look (in part).

Imitation in EQ takes time.  That's the key.  Even if folks are hell bent on imitating you - you have a time window to sustain that "look".  

As Rasix points out you can always go generate a level 1 character with any look you want - but you have to level him.  That's cost if you're used to playing at level 30 etc.

But tailoring changes this a lot of this (barring body shape).  You can morph at almost any time (as I understand).

So why not just change your look if you do feel imitated?  This is all subjective, but perhaps some people choose a look that compliments their name and power sets.  I admit it, my friend and I are in this category but we may be the minority.

[eldaec]

Here's the thing.

Folks in EQ aren't hell bent on imitating you.

They really aren't.

[CmdrSlack]

I don't think the ability to change uniform ruins "uniqueness" for any one player.  Aside from the obvious groups that try to look alike for a purpose (e.g. a 5th column knockoff, the Wondertwins, etc.), I think the costume creation and customization options only encourage added diversity.  

Maybe I'll be wrong, but I just don't see this being a problem.  If you want to address problems with CoH, I think retaining those who want a "meaningful" gameplay experience is one that could (and has) spawn a debate.  

Tailoring costumes is simply an influence sink and a "get out of jail free" for people who came up with an ass-tastic costume on their first try.

[jpark]

I concede the point of this thread.  You guys are probably right this will not be an issue.

[daveNYC]

Tailoring costumes is simply an influence sink and a "get out of jail free" for people who came up with an ass-tastic costume on their first try.

It will also allow people to put capes on their characters without re-rolling.  Wings too, if they add them.  Birdman!!!!

[Sky]

Nobody wants to look like my cheesy character anyway, unless spiky white hair and blue skin is suddenly the rage :P

Now Don Pancake's impressive yellow shoes and orange pants, yeah I can see why the guys might want to imitate such a luxurious lady's man. I gotta level him up a bit so I can bring him on our task force picnics, he's TEH AWESOMIST fire/fire blastah.

[Alluvian]

My Troll now has horns.  I screwed up and forgot them at character creation.  I got to add them without restarting.  That is a bonus.  His other costumes would be just minor varients on his current one, different shoulderpads, etc...  I will probably unlock the slots just for the fun of doing the tailor quests eventually.

[Grind]

Some thoughts:

We KNOW costume looks are important to everyone since the reason why anyone would want to make a change/tweak is because they think they would derive satisfaction in game from that change. period.

Issue really is that if you make such changes easy, you get cloning and is that evil acceptable?

 My thought is that having more flexibility in the game that does not take away from game balance is great.

My other thought is that there are more people who would benefit from a costume change than those who made unique, great looks for their character and wish no changes - so tought noogies for them! Having the tailor make massive costume respeccing easy robs those creative, unique characters, but will not kill the game.

Sweeping changes to respeccing powersets, however, may lead to templates of the week (aka Shadowbane) and destroy PvE and PvP gameplay. Talk of 'City of Blasters' could turn to 'City of Mutant Energy Blasters with these skills taken at these levels with the following enhancement slots'. You get the idea. Sweeping powerset respeccing affects game balance regardless of how difficult it is for one to respecc in game and has the potential to destroy the game.

Grind

[SurfD]

Actually, power selection "min-maxing" is already healthy and strong, all you  need to do is hit the boards for a particular AT and browse a bit.  It is insanely easy to find custom power+slotout builds for lots of characters.  

Need that perfect Invuln tanker?  There are threads describing EXACTLY what percentages of defence every power grants you, and how best to slot for maximum defence in a variety of ways.

The only thing that a respec would do would be to allow people to correct mistakes made during character building as they went along.  Sure, flavour of the month may result, but i would much rather have a means of ditching a slot off of a power (which in retrospect) I never wanted to put that slot on, or ditching a power i didnt like/got nerfed/never use for something more usefull.

I know that as an Ener/Elec blaster I would LOVE to move that extra slot I accidently put in Lightning Field, and ditch the Lightning Clap and Thunder strike for powers in the Fitness line (so I can get stamina at 40, instead of 48.)

The only way they could really screw up respec is if they allow changing of primary/secondary lines.
  Changing archetypes would be totally stupid (they might as well just add a /30 command in that instance).
  I could possibly see changing Origin as part of a special respec quest, but only if they eventually make origins MEAN something, other then what shops you frequent and what baddies you prefer for your drops.  If they ever add Origin specific quests (ie, mutants are the ONLY origin that can recieve the quest, but others can experience the content by grouping with a mutant), or origin specific power pools, this might be more of an issue.  However, this should come at the cost that ALL your old Enhancers are now junk, and you have to re outfit (this would also prevent high level people from Origin hopping, as cost to re equip would get exponentially prohibative).

As i said in a previous topic, as far as Respec within an AT goes, the best way to do it would be to either store your Enhancers or Credit them back to you at full cost (so you can buy them right back again) and then reset you to level 1, letting you basicly go back through the level up prociedure in X number of steps, where X = your level (much like what happens if you gain 2 or 3 levels before hitting a trainer). If they are REALLY generous, they could let you change your secondary line, but they should NOT allow changes to primary lines.

[eldaec]

just for the fun of doing the tailor quests eventually.

Worth noting that the tailor quests are just 'kill x of y' missions.

[Phred]

Some thoughts:

Sweeping changes to respeccing powersets, however, may lead to templates of the week (aka Shadowbane) and destroy PvE and PvP gameplay. Talk of 'City of Blasters' could turn to 'City of Mutant Energy Blasters with these skills taken at these levels with the following enhancement slots'. You get the idea. Sweeping powerset respeccing affects game balance regardless of how difficult it is for one to respecc in game and has the potential to destroy the game.

Grind

Pretty sure I saw somewhere that they were limiting respec to something like 6 weeks between respecs. Seeing as with a bit of help you could build a character to 40-50 in that time, I think this pretty well annuls your problem with it.

As well there's been no mention of allowing respec of primary or secondary skillsets, or AT for that matter. Probably a good thing as at the moment a lot of people would probably switch to blaster. A bad thing for controllers though, as the devs seem intent on making them useless at actually controlling anything.