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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: New MMO subscription solution for ArchLord 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #70 on: August 11, 2006, 04:04:17 PM

RMT doesn't always have to be a scam to prey on weak.  RMT could be used as a flexable payment system for games that couldn't get away with a subscribtion.  And I would never play a game with both.  Again Puzzle Pirates is a great example, you  can play most of they game without spending a lot.  I am sure I would spent more playing on a subscription server than I did playing on the RMT server. And I probably never would started a subscription in the first place if that was my only option.

"Me am play gods"
Righ
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Reply #71 on: August 12, 2006, 04:20:01 PM

So, you'll be left with a bunch of people standing around the bank showing off their stuff without any real pvp'ing going on because nobody has the time.  It is a perfect MMOG for RL Executives.  Well, the ones too geeky to get into the country club.  Maybe this should be called Country Club Online!

Nope. Because it turns out that there are fuckloads of people with both an excess of time and money. It sucks that you and I aren't among that number, but there you go. The developer is banking on finding those people who would rather play other games instead of the shitty grind, but will invest the time in playing the end-game that they've paid a lot of moolah for. Good luck to them.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
geldonyetich
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Reply #72 on: August 12, 2006, 04:53:33 PM

The point of buying RMT is to circumvent the treadmill and try to get to the game that's theoretically at the end of it, be that PvP or raiding or whatever.  Of course, in most cases it will turn out that the game at the end sucks as much as the treadmill did, but the RMTer still wins out because he found out that much quicker.
Since, in your example, the player finds out he was wrong to believe the RMT shortcut would bring happiness, he was deluded to begin with.  That's why I'm throwing around the word "delusion", why those buying RMT are deluding themselves, and those selling RMT are exploiting the deluded. 

Most of the "potency-treadmills" you've burned out on, from EQ through WoW, were not of Korean origin :)
There's a very big and easy to find discernable difference between the Korean-Potency treadmills of Lineage 2, RF Online, and Ragnarok Online and the American-Potency treadmills of EverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot, or World of Warcraft.  I haven't mentioned this before, but this difference is the Toys to Time ratio.  In your average Korean-Potency treadmill progression reaches points, often quite early, where you're expected to grind for 10 or more levels to get one new skill.  Often, you'll have your entire set of skills by level 20 and be asked to run another 30 levels with that.  In an American-Potency, you get a new skill every 1-8 levels at most, and this rate lasts until the end game when you've a ton of abilities in your lap.

In other words, it's not about how long the developers intended me to play, it's if they bothered to add enough game to be worth that time spent.  When you're tired of your toys and have been told to keep playing anyway, that is the difference between a grind and a game.

(I underlined all that because it was awesome.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?)

Important differentiation factor addendum: note that "new skill" (a.k.a. "toys") means "totally different ability than you've had before" as not "upgrade copy of an ability you already have".  Simply changing the potency, color, or element is an upgrade (and a minor one at that) not a new ability.  Upgrades are better than nothing, but brand new toys/skills are what keep a player interesting for me.   For that reason, EverQuest 2 doesn't get as much slack as EverQuest did, because EverQuest 2's skill tree is heavier saturated with copies instead of whole new abilities.  Star Wars Galaxies NGE is a total trainwreck for this reason - it's like 30 levels until you get a new ability sometimes - pathetic!

Not enough toys for the amount of grind they ask of me, and I'm doing the same repetitive boring thing with no variation.  Enough of that and I'm out.  It's that simple.  I wonder how many people feel the same way?

The American-Potency treadmills I've had difficulty with are the ones that set the time between level too high for my satisfaction.  Guild Wars is a game I can enjoy a lot for this reason - they dump tons of new abilities on players, and provided I'm willing  to experiment the game stays interesting.  It's a pity Guild Wars doesn't have that massively multiplayer thing going, doesn't feel very worldly at all, but as a game it's good. City of Heroes has a great lower level toys to grind ratio, but around level 13-16 it slows way down.  I'm able to pull some novelty from doing the storylines embedded in the missions, but it's not enough.  This is why it's a game I can stomach in short bursts only.  Then I start a new character, get a cool new batch of toys to play with, and that lasts until I hit level 13-16 again.  A good temporary workaround, but I'll never reach level 50 that way, which is a pity considering Cryptic locked up a whole batch of toys for when I hit 50 (their alien heroes).

I've generously inserted the possibility that Arch-Lord may be different and that "Korean-Potency Treadmill" is a stereotype.   However, I've seen enough of their games to assume it's not worth buying Arch-Lord to find out.

Too many developers think that the social aspect is all a MMORPG really offers.  I don't think social aspect allow MMORPGs to operate regardless of toys:grind ratio.  Rather, the social aspect allows MMORPGs to operate despite a poor toys:grind ratio for a few unlucky players who friends drag them in.  In other words, a MMORPG with both a good toys:grind ratio and a social aspect gots a double hitter, where a MMORPG that doesn't (most) feels half complete.  Check out the toys:grind ratio on World of Warcraft, and that's with weak social dependancy systems.

Anyone know of any games not mentioned yet that have an awesome toy to grind ratio?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 05:40:14 PM by geldonyetich »

Righ
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Reply #73 on: August 12, 2006, 06:56:52 PM

Anyone know of any games not mentioned yet that have an awesome toy to grind ratio?

Titan Quest. You just have to pretend that its an MMOPG and that you're pissed of with your guild and ignoring them.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
Venkman
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Reply #74 on: August 14, 2006, 09:36:35 AM

Quote from: Geldon
I haven't mentioned this before, but this difference is the Toys to Time ratio. 
That's just semantics though The main point is, again, that whether of Korean or Western origin, diku-inspired games are fertile ground for RMTing because of the imbalances based on time. I only use you as one example, but you've quit games that have had comparatively awesome time-to-toy ratios. Whether it's 1 hour between toys or 10 hours, it's not instant, and therefore not enough for some people. We're simply importing a business model that SOE hasn't been able to make successful enough that other Western developer/publishers have been compelled to emulate it

24/7 Persistent world > Self-directed investment > Time-Inbalance > Farming > Twinking > Powerleveling > RMT.
geldonyetich
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Reply #75 on: August 14, 2006, 12:20:53 PM

Seperate tangent, DQ.  The RMT versus Grind is one thing.  The Toys:Grind ratio was me talking about why I'd probably not play ArchLord regardless of the presense of RMT. 

Geeze man, can't you keep track of failed hijackings of one thread on a message board out of the 50 sources you read each day? ;)

Venkman
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Reply #76 on: August 14, 2006, 01:02:14 PM

Nuh uh, you don't get off that easily for taking a quote out of context :)
Soln
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Reply #77 on: August 14, 2006, 01:27:40 PM

24/7 Persistent world > Self-directed investment > Time-Inbalance > Farming > Twinking > Powerleveling > RMT.

proposal:  pay for play; and limit the 24/7 access -- who really needs to play more than 8hrs a day?  Make them pay more.  And don't let anyone play 24hrs since those are just bots and people switching toons.
Venkman
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Reply #78 on: August 14, 2006, 02:18:41 PM

I think the ratio between those who pay-to-play and those who pay a flat monthly-fee will likely be the same it was back in the MUD days. That's good for a focused game catering to a very specific target audience, but not for a company hoping to cast a wider net.
Signe
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Reply #79 on: August 29, 2006, 04:42:58 PM

If anyone is interested, the NDA for Archlord has been lifted.

Source:  http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126829

I received a beta invite and actually downloaded it, but never logged in.  I was too a-scared.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Telemediocrity
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Reply #80 on: August 29, 2006, 04:55:00 PM

Quote
Anyone know of any games not mentioned yet that have an awesome toy to grind ratio?

...Do not tempt me.
Rhonstet
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Reply #81 on: September 02, 2006, 01:16:34 PM

Anyone know of any games not mentioned yet that have an awesome toy to grind ratio?

Planetside.  Not only are your toys/skills basically free, but as you gain more points you can switch some of your toys/skills around.

I would also claim that Chromehounds has the same effect, but I'm reasonably certain that a lot of people don't consider Chromehounds an MMO.  In Chromehounds, you can get new equipment after every single fight.


What's interesting about these two games, in terms of RMT, is how VASTLY different they are.

Planetside has zero RMT.  Even most powerlevelling services won't touch PS. 

Chromehounds has RMT through XBox Live Marketplace.  You can buy special weapons, equipment, paint schemes, etc with Points, which cost money.  Those devices can then be used for customization.  Those parts though aren't that common, as each still has disadvantages.

We now return to your regularly scheduled foolishness, already in progress.
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