Core 2 Duo

[dusematic]

Is Dell going to be carrying these in their systems tomorrow?

[Morfiend]

Anandtech Review Core 2 Duo

[Sky]

http://www.dellone2one.com/one2one/archive/2006/07/20/643.aspx

1. Will the XPS 700 support Core 2 processors? If I ordered an XPS 700 with a Pentium D processor will I be able to upgrade it with a Core 2 processor later on my own?

Yes, all XPS 700 motherboards will accommodate Pentium D, Core 2 Duo and Core 2 Extreme processors.  Customers just need the new processor and a BIOS update, which will be available on support.dell.com.  Upgrading the processor from a Pentium D to a Core 2 Duo or Core 2 Extreme will not require a motherboard upgrade.

[dusematic]

So is that saying that Core 2 Duo will only be available in the XPS 700 model?

[Engels]

So is that saying that Core 2 Duo will only be available in the XPS 700 model?

No, I think its just saying that any intel board that supports the same socket type will fit a Core 2 Duo chip, provided a bios upgrade before insertion. Same with any other CPU upgrade. What they don't tell you is that such an upgrade is probably going to require a complete reinstall of your operating system/games/software.

[Sky]

Right. People were a wee bit upset that they just dropped $3k on a system that'd be obsolete in a couple days. Wel, not 'obsolete', but you know what I mean. Not top-end.

[dusematic]

Dell just added a new model, XPS 410 to its lineup.  So now XPS 700 and 410 both offer Conroe.

[Trippy]

So is that saying that Core 2 Duo will only be available in the XPS 700 model?

No, I think its just saying that any intel board that supports the same socket type will fit a Core 2 Duo chip, provided a bios upgrade before insertion. Same with any other CPU upgrade. What they don't tell you is that such an upgrade is probably going to require a complete reinstall of your operating system/games/software.

You need to be careful -- not all Socket 478 (which the Core uses) motherboards support the Pentium D. I just got back from a trip so I haven't looked into this in detail but I would assume that motherboards that don't currently support the Pentium D will *not* be able to support the Core irrespective of any BIOS upgrade.

Edit: Sorry it's not the Socket 478 -- it's the LGA775 that the desktop Cores (aka Conroe), the Pentium D, and later P4s use. The mobile version of the Core (aka Yonah) uses the Socket 478 and there's also a Socket 479 version as well.

[Engels]

That's a valid assumption. Socket type has had little to do with CPU type in the past; in the last year or two there has been, at least with AMD, a very wide swathe of cross over CPUs for socket 939, and one could, with a bios patch, install a AMD X2 64 dual core chip in the same motherboard that held your AMD 64 +3500, for instance. That's not always been the case.

[Trippy]

That's a valid assumption. Socket type has had little to do with CPU type in the past; in the last year or two there has been, at least with AMD, a very wide swathe of cross over CPUs for socket 939, and one could, with a bios patch, install a AMD X2 64 dual core chip in the same motherboard that held your AMD 64 +3500, for instance. That's not always been the case.

Yes that right. The A64 is different because it has a on-chip memory controller. With the P3/P4 design (the Core is actually based on the P3/Pentium M design) there's an external memory controller which is part of the northbridge chipset and that's why there was a incompatibility between older P4 chipsets and the Pentium D. The memory controller in the older northbridge chipsets can't handle memory signals coming from essentially two different CPUs and that's why a BIOS upgrade wasn't sufficient to switch to the Pentium D like with the A64 chipsets -- you had to have a different northbridge.

Edit: fixed typos

[Engels]

All of which is super annoying. I read Tom's Hardware's review of the then 'new' A2 socket X2 64 AMD chip, and from reading that, they had no reason to change the socket type from 939. There was no added functionality to changing it, except that the 'new' chip could now use DDR2 memory, badly. AMD simply made a new socket type just to make its new chip distinguishable from the 939 socket. Why? The DDR2 memory didn't outperform the DDR memory with the AMD chip unless you purchased the super expensive high end CPU and the crazy expensive DDR2 with high CAS latency.

 I sometimes feel like there's a 3 card monty game going on, with the socket type changing ever 2 years, the vid card interface changing every 4, etc.

[Koyasha]

I'm probably getting an nForce 4 motherboard, since NVidia claims the nForce 4 SLI are compatible with the Conroe, and I can't find a single nForce series 5 motherboard available for Intel anywhere, although the NVidia site says they exist.  And I'm planning to get a 7950 GX2 so I can consider eventually adding a second 7950 GX2 for Quad SLI, once there's more support out for that.

So has anyone seen a good place and price for a Core 2 Duo E6600?  That seems to be the best processor price point from what I can see.  Overclockable to 3.0 ghz or a bit more, and nowhere near the extreme price of the Core 2 Extreme.

[schild]

I was speccing an Alienware today and I noticed something strange:

1024MB NVIDIA® GeForce™ 7950 GX2  Free Upgrade! $300 Savings!

When the hell did 1GB graphics cards come out? And are they a fucking rad as a 1GB graphics card should be? Now, I'd never buy an Alienware, cuz you can get the vast majority of the exact same computer in a case that isn't the size of a Ford F150 for about half the cost. But still. 1GB.

[Trippy]

Okay I checked the chipset compatibility chart at Intel and the news isn't good. There are many Intel chipsets that support the Pentium D but *don't* support the Core 2 Duo including all but the newest of the very very popular 945 series and the 865 series. The same probably applies to the non-Intel chipsets as well -- the very latest ones that support the Pentium D should support the Core 2 but older chipsets, even if they support the Pentium D, probably won't support the Core 2.

Compatibility chart here

[Trippy]

I was speccing an Alienware today and I noticed something strange:

1024MB NVIDIA® GeForce™ 7950 GX2  Free Upgrade! $300 Savings!

When the hell did 1GB graphics cards come out? And are they a fucking rad as a 1GB graphics card should be? Now, I'd never buy an Alienware, cuz you can get the vast majority of the exact same computer in a case that isn't the size of a Ford F150 for about half the cost. But still. 1GB.

The 7950 GX2 is two GPUs on the same card, hence the 1 GB RAM (512 MB RAM for each GPU x 2).

[Strazos]

Talk about overkill...

It'd probably still get choked by EQ2 on max settings. 

[Trippy]

All of which is super annoying. I read Tom's Hardware's review of the then 'new' A2 socket X2 64 AMD chip, and from reading that, they had no reason to change the socket type from 939. There was no added functionality to changing it, except that the 'new' chip could now use DDR2 memory, badly. AMD simply made a new socket type just to make its new chip distinguishable from the 939 socket. Why?

There's pressure on AMD to support the same components as Intel does. Despite all of AMD's recent success, Intel still is the 900-pound gorilla and having two memory standards for desktop computers (DDR and DDR2) is problematic for everybody.

The DDR2 memory didn't outperform the DDR memory with the AMD chip unless you purchased the super expensive high end CPU and the crazy expensive DDR2 with high CAS latency.

I think you mean low CAS latency.

[dusematic]

Dude I'm trying to build my own comp and I want to use a 6600 C2D.  The problem is, I don't know what Mobo/Ram combo to get with it.  Info is sparse, maybe I should wait 'til things sort themselves out a bit.

[Righ]

You should at least wait the two weeks or so before retailers that will offer then for sensible money have them in stock rather than on back order. Being in a hurry to get a 6600 will cost you lots of moolah right now.

[Engels]

The DDR2 memory didn't outperform the DDR memory with the AMD chip unless you purchased the super expensive high end CPU and the crazy expensive DDR2 with high CAS latency.

I think you mean low CAS latency.

Er, yes, I did.

By the way, I do not know if its even possible to Dual the 7950. It would need the top connection bridge, which I don't think exists on it. Still, you can't go wrong with that card. It may not be quite as uberiffic as dual 7900s, but its probably more stable.

[Trippy]

By the way, I do not know if its even possible to Dual the 7950.

Yes you can (i.e. Quad SLI).

It would need the top connection bridge, which I don't think exists on it.

Yes it does.

[Engels]

Wow, trippy. Ostensibly you could buy two of those cards and not have to worry about upgrading for 3 years.

[Yegolev]

Is there anything ostensible about dropping over a grand on graphics?

[dusematic]

LOL

[Engels]

Is there anything ostensible about dropping over a grand on graphics?

I guess it depends on your purchasing philosophy. Gaming rigs are all about graphics. There's some improvement with a raided hard drive set, some better sound with a aftermarket pci sound card, but in the end, the bulk of the expense is in screen, cpu and graphics cards, with the graphics cards doing the bulk of the work. If you're going to spend a grand on a CPU, why not do so for two video cards?

[Engels]

By the way, when do these chips hit the shelves? I know they are already available at Dell and other companies, but how about New Egg and Fry's?

[Trippy]

By the way, when do these chips hit the shelves? I know they are already available at Dell and other companies, but how about New Egg and Fry's?

Just the CPUs (as opposed to complete systems) are supposedly going to be available on or after August 7th.

[Sky]

It's going to be a long wait until next February when I intend to build a new system. E6600 o/c to 3.6GHz! I find myself actually excited about a cpu launch. It's been years since that happened.

The C2D being the heart of future macs makes me all warm+fuzzy, too.

[Trippy]

Here are the Core 2 Duo prices from Newegg:

E6300 1.86 GHz, 2 MB shared L2 - $229.00
E6400 2.13 GHz, 2 MB shared L2 - $299.00
E6600 2.40 GHz, 4 MB shared L2 - $459.00
E6700 2.66 GHz, 4 MB shared L2 - $699.00

And here are some Newegg Athlon 64 prices in comparison (all Socket 939, the X2s are dual core, the FXs are single core). Note that the Core 2 Duo is benchmarking quite a bit better than the Athlon 64 at similar clock speeds.

X2 3800+ 2.0 GHz, 2 x 512 KB L2 - $149.00
X2 4200+ 2.2 GHz, 2 x 512 KB L2 - $182.00
X2 4600+ 2.4 GHz, 2 x 512 KB L2 - $255.00
X2 4800+ 2.4 GHz, 2 x 1 MB L2 - $307.00
FX-55 2.6 GHz, 1 MB L2 - $369.00
FX-57 2.8 GHz, 1 MB L2 - $639.00

[Koyasha]

You left out the top of the line Athlon, the FX-62.  And from some benchmarks, the Core 2 Duo E6600 ($459.99) is matching or outperforming the Athlon 64 FX-62 ($831.99), and the Core 2 Extreme is far beyond the FX-62 on most benchmarks I've looked at.  It's price is pretty high too though, at $1255, and the E6600 can actually surpass the Extreme's base performance through overclocking.  Core 2 Duos are also available at slightly better prices in other places, but availability is still hit-or-miss at some of them.

Sky, how much cooling do you think is going to be needed to overclock an E6600 to 3.6 Ghz?  While I know they run pretty cool, and I was thinking of taking mine to 3.0, taking it up a full 1.2 Ghz seems like a huge amount of overclocking.

[MythicJason]

Regarding Core 2 Duo prices, I picked up a E6700 for 599. Several people I know via a tech forum picked up E6600's for 359. Keep in mind these where OEM's.

In the process of moving all my stuff to the new system, so haven't used it much, but based on my 3Dmark06 score of 6001 I think I will be happy with it. Well I better be happy with it... doubt the wife will approve any more upgrades for a long time.

[stray]

So....The new Mac desktops have been released. Like 4 or 5 days ago, and I didn't even know (I rely on you guys for my tech news, damnit!). Was there a link somewhere around here already?

[Sky]

Sky, how much cooling do you think is going to be needed to overclock an E6600 to 3.6 Ghz?  While I know they run pretty cool, and I was thinking of taking mine to 3.0, taking it up a full 1.2 Ghz seems like a huge amount of overclocking.

The original forum post I was reading, I've now lost. They were saying something about matching it with DDR2/800 for a 3.6GHz o/c, though you could bump it to 4GHz. Anandtech was also calling the e6600 @ 4GHz, it seems to be the o/c champ of the bunch. Both were using a Tuniq Tower, the forum post had used a Tuniq Tower T-120, with a 12cm fan in the middle, which I can't seem to find at retail anywhere (in stock). But yeah, air cooled 4GHz.

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2795&p=18

Stray: I don't think we linked it. I think those machines are kinda head-scratchers. Definitely aimed squarely at graphics and music pros, but not a great choice for home users or gamers, really. They need a mid-level entry BAD. I guess I'm just glad they came out with the mini so I can get away from the integrated e/iMac lines. And I'd really like to see Apple support vanilla gpus, so I could buy one of those dual-pcb nvidia jobbies and slap it in a mac.

[stray]

Yeah, I'm scratching my head.

Don't want a mini though. If I'm going to go that route, a laptop will take me farther (albeit, with a price).

[Sky]

Oh, I'm not talking personally. They're great for work because we can buy monitors rather than throwing the monitor out with the obsolete mac. My mini is great for working in OSX and XP on this Dell 2007FPW.