1500 dollar PC

[Trippy]

I thought the 360 was more parallel, though that's a total assumption as I haven't read up on the details. I was suprised by the linearity of the PS3's cores. That's a long damned chain.

What do you mean by "more parallel"? The 360 has 3 identical cores while the Cell has one main CPU and 7 "Synergistic Processing Elements".

[Sky]

The 360 can do out-of-order processing and the Cell can't, right? I meant that the 360 can process threads in parallel where the Cell is a bit more linear in execution. Again, I haven't read much about the 360.

Anyway, I don't care either way :)

[Trippy]

The 360 can do out-of-order processing [...] right?

No. That was one of the simplifications they made to the design. The Cell is in-order as well -- in fact, the Cell's PPE is very similar to the 360 cores -- they all share the same simplified in-order dual-independent threading design (the dual threading partially making up for not supporting OOE).

I meant that the 360 can process threads in parallel where the Cell is a bit more linear in execution. Again, I haven't read much about the 360.

The 360 can in theory have 6 threads running in parallel, two for each core. The PPE is like a single 360 core so it can have 2 parallel threads. Then there are the 7 SPEs which individually are single-threaded but can operate independently (i.e. in parallel) or setup for "stream" processing where they are chained together to handle some complicated task. For general purpose CPU stuff the 360 is arguably more parallel but for floating point/vector processing the Cell probably is (the 360 cores and the PPE include vector processing units as well but they aren't as powerful as the SPEs).

[Sky]

So at the very least, it's getting people into a multi-core, multithreaded programming space.

[stray]

/bump

I was thinking about getting this Shuttle SD37P2. $429 at Newegg.

Core2 Duo, Extreme, and Crossfire capable. Up to 8 gigs of RAM and 3 internal sata hdd's (plus 1 external). Pretty much what a Mac Mini should be.

I'm new to small form factor though. Is there something better available? Should I wait (I believe this was released in August)?

The only downside I can see is the two PCI-e slots and no built in wireless. You have to choose between either Crossfire or wireless.

[edit] Ah wait, Shuttle sells their own wireless kit. My bad.
 

[Trippy]

I'm still suspicious of Crossfire even though ATI has been making improvements to it. And now that AMD has bought out ATI it's uncertain what the future of ATI technologies on the Intel platform is going to be.

Pretty much what a Mac Mini should be.

The Mac Mini is a completely different form factor. This is closer to the Mac Mini and even that thing is quite a bit bigger in size.

[stray]

My comparison with the mini's is their general lack of upgradability. I'd definitely sacrifice size for that. That Shuttle is only 9 inchs tall anyways. 

[edit]

Or in other words, I'd be happy if Apple released a "big" Mini in the same spirit as some of these Shuttles (and not jack it up $1000 over the PC equivalents either). Something that's a little more workstation/gaming quality.

[stray]

Gah. Is it me, or has PC purchasing become a lot more complex? I have no idea what I'm doing anymore.

Help me build a PC please. Sub $2000, preferably sub $1500.

1) I want a motherboard with a good future upgrade path, but isn't necessarily made for pros and oc'ing. I don't want to overclock, but I don't want to fuck myself by not doing so either.

2) I don't want to be haunted by choices like Trippy pointed out (Crossfire on Intel).

3) Is nForce still a good chipset to go with? I was happy with nForce2, but I don't know what the advantages are anymore (I know they canned Soundstorm. That's about it).

4) I don't want to make the wrong choice with onboard network or audio. I'm not picky, but I don't want shit that's going to bog down my CPU. And I don't want to pay for separate cards either.

5) If possible, I want a board without parallel and serial ports. Anything to save money.

6) Apparently, each model and make motherboard is terribly picky about certain kinds of memory. How am I supposed to know what to go with?

7) Power supplies. Cooling. It's all a freaking headache (Also, I have a suspicion that cooling is overrated. Do I need anything more than the basics....Seeing that I don't want to overclock)?

8 ) I have no idea about AMD anymore. Intel seems to be all the rage these days. Correct me if I'm wrong.

9) Just about every PC case looks like it came out of a Korean clown shop.

[raydeen]

I'm still suspicious of Crossfire even though ATI has been making improvements to it. And now that AMD has bought out ATI it's uncertain what the future of ATI technologies on the Intel platform is going to be.

Pretty much what a Mac Mini should be.

The Mac Mini is a completely different form factor. This is closer to the Mac Mini and even that thing is quite a bit bigger in size.

Looks like a black NES. I think I want one.

[schild]

The x100 is pretty goddamn awesome.

[stray]

Err...Let me rephrase that post above (sorry for spamming).

I want a decent gaming machine, but I don't want to go all out "enthusiast". That means I want a good SLI capable board, but don't want to deal with a shitton of FSB and voltage options (among other things). Just something that works pretty good right out of the box, and that I don't have to pay much attention to afterwards.

Intel has always been dumbed down enough, but now that Trippy mentions Crossfire and AMD, I can see that as a possible future problem. ATI driver support is already a pain in the ass to begin with.

So...What are my other options?

What is the "Performance Configuration for Lazy Idiots"?

[edit] Do not suggest Alienware kthx.

[hal]

Stray, Hang out in Anandtech general hardware forums. Just cruse by every day. You will get a feel for your options. As well as what is working good for peeps. There really is not one answer to your question. I am in much the same position although I would like DX10 to settle out a little more. I don't like paying a premium on tech just because it is new and shiny.

[Sky]

The mini is exactly what it is supposed to be. There wouldn't be a mini if it threatened enthusiast and workstation applications. Folks like me who need low end macs, but hate integrated monitors danced a massive happy dance when minis came out. I'm dreading the day they cut off the product line :( Just had a monitor go on an old imac, if it had been a mini, no big deal. Now it's in the garbage pile.

I'm no help, I can't keep my budget at $2k, it's hovering over $2500 right now :( I blame RAM prices and my wish for dx10 parts.

[Sky]

1) I want a motherboard with a good future upgrade path, but isn't necessarily made for pros and oc'ing. I don't want to overclock, but I don't want to fuck myself by not doing so either.

Yes, you do. The C2Ds are a great value and overclock great. I plan on getting an e6600 to 3.6GHz (around $320). You can do great with a lower end chip, too.

2) I don't want to be haunted by choices like Trippy pointed out (Crossfire on Intel).

My personal preference is to avoid SLI/Crossfire. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd rather just have a solid single gpu solution. I'm probably wrong.

3) Is nForce still a good chipset to go with? I was happy with nForce2, but I don't know what the advantages are anymore (I know they canned Soundstorm. That's about it).

No Soundstorm :( Bah, I forget what I was going to type. There was one audio chipset that advertised EAX 2 (the highest goddamned Creative will license out), but didn't actually do it. Realtek? C-Media? I forget. Sorry, but you can google it, I guess.

4) I don't want to make the wrong choice with onboard network or audio. I'm not picky, but I don't want shit that's going to bog down my CPU. And I don't want to pay for separate cards either.

These are mutually exclusive goals. You will have two cores to balance the load, at least.

5) If possible, I want a board without parallel and serial ports. Anything to save money.

Me, too. It's going that way, but it's really up to the mobo makers.

6) Apparently, each model and make motherboard is terribly picky about certain kinds of memory. How am I supposed to know what to go with?

Crucial.com is your friend. Configurator tool, even if you don't buy through them.

7) Power supplies. Cooling. It's all a freaking headache (Also, I have a suspicion that cooling is overrated. Do I need anything more than the basics....Seeing that I don't want to overclock)?

Cooling is not a big deal with the C2D. The aforementioned 3.6GHz o/c I want to do is accomplished with modest hs/f cooling, in some cases stock. PSU...you want to spend the money on a good one. Look at the problems folks have had here with cheap PSUs.

8 ) I have no idea about AMD anymore. Intel seems to be all the rage these days. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct. There is only one thing to be thinking about: Core2Duo.

9) Just about every PC case looks like it came out of a Korean clown shop.

I agree. Reading case roundups is hilarious. "We really liked the sleek stylings of this case" and it's some gaudy fake chrome and red anime wet dream. But hey, style is very subjective and these folks spend a lot of time in Asia. The Antec P-180 is pretty nice. There are nice cases, you just have to dig around.

[Engels]

Ok, I don't get it. What is this fascination with minis? I know they look cool and compact, but in gaming, that's a problem. You want circulation and cooling. That sleek black mini Trippy pointed out? It probably has a slim line hard drive. I have a crate full of broken slim line hard drives at work ready for RMA. They were not knock offs, either. They were western digital hard drives. They were all in slim line boxes of the type Trippy pointed out. I also have a box full of video cards that blew as well, from the same boxes. These were not 'cheap' video cards. All of them were ATI/Nvidia chipsets.

These were work stations, running nothing fancier than MS Word. Why did they blow? Because of overheating. My boss purchased them in a frenzy over 'desk real estate' and we're now having problems with storage space in our attempts to cannibalise as many of these 'cute' boxes as we can to keep the remaining ones running.

Unless you have a good practical reason you really need your computer to be small, its just a bad idea to stuff electronics together like that, especially if you are aiming to get good graphics/gaming performance out of it.

Get a regular case, with some nice fans on it. 12 cm fans are nice. I have the p-180 myself, and its good, but you don't have to go overboard either. I still have a perfectly serviceable Antec LanBoy that's more than adequate.

As for Stray's questions, I agree with just about everything that Sky suggested. I might also suggest waiting a few to see some maturation in the Dx10/Vista department before purchasing an expensive video card.

[Sky]

I'm talking about the mac mini. It's the first low-cost mac that doesn't have an integrated monitor. They totally rock for office work. We also used ultra-small-form-factor Dells, but they're bigger than the minis and can't run OSX. We've budgeted for intel mac minis for most pc applications right now. As long as they have enough airflow, it's great for desk space. You shouldn't be having overheating problems from running simple office apps. The only thing I've found is that our primary reference computer can't be a mini, because it runs a shitload of apps in OSX, plus Virtual PC (XP Pro) and XP apps. Just too much for the lil guy. Everyone else using one has been happy, and they mostly have the G4 version (I have the intel version + 20" dell widescreen = great office setup).

Gaming doesn't enter into that decisionmaking process. I game on a homebuilt windows machine, it's still the best way to do it.

[stray]

Thanks for the advice guys. I suppose I'll just wait a bit then.

-

Mini's are cool, small form factor is cool. Saving space is cool. I think it's ridiculous to have a monolith PC sitting under my desk just for gaming. The PS3 or 360 aren't that big.....

-

As far towers go, that P180 does look much better than the usual stuff. I don't like the door though. Also, I don't like that big vent on top of it.

[stray]

There was one audio chipset that advertised EAX 2 (the highest goddamned Creative will license out), but didn't actually do it. Realtek? C-Media? I forget. Sorry, but you can google it, I guess.

It's Realtek btw.

But yeah, it's a damn lie.

[Trippy]

Disclaimer: I've been an AMD user for a while now so I haven't done much research on Intel systems in a long while but if somebody put a gun to my head and said "HERE'S $2K BUY ME A GAME SYSTEM NOW!" here's what I would get:

Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 Conroe 2.4GHz LGA 775 Processor Model BX80557E6600 - Retail $309.00
The Core 2 Duo is where it's at right now. This is the cheapest of the 1066 MHz FSB CPUs so you'll have room to grow without having to worry about changing your memory (at least for a while).

EVGA 122-CK-NF68-AR Socket T (LGA 775) NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail $249.99
Looks like a good motherboard :-D

CORSAIR XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model TWIN2X2048-8500C5 - Retail $369.00 (current out of stock)
Though I actually like Patriot now, Corsair is still the most reputable of the "enthusiasts" brands.

eVGA 512-P2-N637-AR GeForce 7950GT 512MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP KO Superclocked Video Card - Retail $279.99 (currently also has $10 rebate)
8800s are still way too expensive so I would just go with something mainstream now and plan on upgrading to a real DX10 card in a year or two.

Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeMusic 7.1 Channels PCI Interface Sound Card - Retail $92.99 (currently also has $20 rebate)
Accelerated sound support is a bit wonky in Vista -- you'll need a card that properly supports OpenAL and this is one of them.

Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000KS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM $179.99
I prefer extra storage over the speed of the Raptors but I use my machine as a PVR device so YMMV.

Antec Solo Black/Silver Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail $89.99
I like Antec cases. This one has very nice hard drive mounting options. The P180 isn't that much more expensive if you wanted to go that route.

SeaSonic S12 Energy Plus SS-650HT ATX12V/ EPS12V 650W Power Supply - Retail $159.99
SeaSonic are known for their quiet efficiency. This one is also rated to run dual 7950GTXs if you wanted to go wild.

ZALMAN CNPS9500 LED 92mm 2 Ball Blue LED Light - Retail $58.99
I love this CPU cooler. The Ninja Scythe is actually a bit better cause it can fit a 120mm fan but I had a painful time trying to install one on my most recent A64 system and I swapped it out for another one of these things (I have one in an older A64 box as well).

HP 18X DVD±R DVD Burner With LightScribe, 12X DVD-RAM Write IDE Model DVD940I - OEM $54.99
There are any number of decent burner makers. I had some issue with getting a Lite-On to work properly with Linux so I swapped it out for the above equivalent (can't quite remember the model). I went with the Lite-On originally cause I needed something that was short depth wise and the HP has the same dimensions.

Antec 761345-75092-9 92mm Case Fan - Retail $5.99 x 2
Case fans for the front to cool the hard drive and bring in cool air. Has a three-way switch to control the speed of the fan.

TOTAL: $1856.90 (not including tax and shipping)

[stray]

EVGA 122-CK-NF68-AR Socket T (LGA 775) NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail $249.99
Looks like a good motherboard :-D

Yeah, I had my eye on that last night. It looks better than the Asus 680i offerings (slightly better audio chipset, for one...plus it's $50 cheaper). I've been using an Asus board for awhile though, don't have any experience with eVGA outside vid cards. So there's some brand loyalty that comes into play here.

What I'd really like to see is a 680i equivalent of this: ASUS P5N32-SLI Premium/WiFi-AP Socket. It's a 500 series with wifi, but isn't made for "enthusiasts" and overclockers. Still has a crap audio chipset though (either give me decent audio, or drop it from the board entirely).

eVGA 512-P2-N637-AR GeForce 7950GT 512MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP KO Superclocked Video Card - Retail $279.99 (currently also has $10 rebate)
8800s are still way too expensive so I would just go with something mainstream now and plan on upgrading to a real DX10 card in a year or two.

Hmm, maybe I'm on the right page here....Was looking at that too (and it's Asus equivalent).

Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000KS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM $179.99
I prefer extra storage over the speed of the Raptors but I use my machine as a PVR device so YMMV.

Fortunately I can save cash on SATA, since I already have 'em.

[Trippy]

Getting to $1500.

If you wanted to bring closer it $1500, personally I would skimp on the video card rather than the CPU since 1) it's much much easier to replace a video card and 2) the DX10 cards will be cheaper next year and so there's not much point now spending a lot on the video card, so something like this is an option:

eVGA 256-P2-N624-AR GeForce 7900GS 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 KO Video Card - Retail $179.99 (not inc. $20 rebate)

If you do go with a lower end video you could switch to the P150 which is the same case design as the Solo above but has a decent enough power supply to support a single mainstream card. I have a P150 and I like it other than the fact that the spring on one of the "stealth doors" broke almost immediately. You would need to take out the PS and put in something else if you wanted to go the SLI route in the future:

Antec Performance One P150 White Steel ATX Mini Tower Computer Case 430-Watt ATX12V v2.2 Power Supply - Retail $149.99

Since you already have SATA hard drives taking out the WD drive and going with the changes above would take you down to:

TOTAL: $1476.92

Edit: fixed last sentence

[stray]

Hmm, when I consider everything, it seems like getting a new comp just isn't a good idea for me right now. DX10 cards need to get cheaper and more widely implemented, Vista needs maturation time, nForce 600 series boards need to be more varied and cut down in price a bit (I think there's a cheaper/less "enthusiast" based 650 chipset in the works), and whatever else....

The computer I have now is crap, but I could hold off up to a year probably. It still runs most things. I'm just getting that itch though.

[hal]

We all are Stray. But in particular DX10 needs more options and more availability. One can foolishly hope for cheaper memory prices after the first of the year as well. My AGP card has me in middle to lower middle ranking.. And that just ain't me!! But being premature on new platforms has cost me in the past.

[Engels]

Fyi, I read an article on the 7950 on either Toms or Anandtech, I forget which, which stated that unless you're going to run your game at 1600x1200 (widescreen) or something otherwise outrageous, the 7950 doesn't perform particulary better than the cheaper 7900 series card. In otherwords, if you already have an lcd monitor that won't support high high resolutions, you might save some money and get the 7900, since it performs as well, and allegedly better at lower resolutions than the 7950. Of course, I'm stuck with 1280x1024 resolution on my 7950 and to be honest, although its more than adequate for 90% of what I do with games, its not wtfpwnz or anything. I'm debating getting myself a 24" widescreen to 'remedy' the situation.

[stray]

The 7950 is appealing because it's the only 7000 series (I think) that has HD features.

[Engels]

Don't think so man. The one listed by Trippy claims to have HDTV/S-Video/Composite Out. Or do you mean something else?

[stray]

Eh, thought that was another 7950.

...

Oops you're right.

Well, /foot in mouth (twice today!)

I wonder how it varies...

...

Quick Googling says the 7600GT is capable and 7800GTX are capable as well.

/total foot in mouth

[edit] The 7950 is, however, the only one that's HDCP compliant. It's not clear if that's important as of yet though.