Destroyers.. huh! What are they good for?

[Endie]

I moved from my trusty Merlin to a Cormorant a couple of days ago, and when I realised that level 1 missions were laughable in it, I started doing level 2 missions.  Cue two hours of jump in with 80% armour on the two damage types taken, try to take down one of the 20+ opponents, jump out, let shields and cap recharge, jump to station to temporarily fit armour repair kit and sit outside for a minute.

I've been doing other, industrial stuff on another character, so this one has 3 million skill points and is fairly combat-oriented, but was getting murdered (I eventually lost one, and was less than a second away from losing another) on mission 3 of the initial series.

So am I doing it all wrong?  Or are Cormorants just not up to doing these missions without massive skillpoints?  I just gave up and transferred some cash from my industrial/miner toon and bought a ferox, which I will be able to use, with the appropriate guns and missiles, tonight, so I'm just interested in what I *should* have done.

[Reg]

Destroyers just aren't that great. They can do a lot more damage than a frigate but they don't have the shields and armor to handle level 2 missions.

[Roac]

The designed purpose of destroyers is to be frigate-killers.  However, with the ROF penalty, you only have roughly the equivalent of 5.25 small turrets.  You get more cpu/power, but you're likely spending most of the difference on the turrets, and compared to the Merlin you just lost your shield bonus.  With not much more shielding, and shields no harder than you get on a frig, you're not really stepping up when you go Destroyer.

Basically, a destroyer is a glorified frig that you've got to train a whole extra skill to use.  In the case of Caldari, who in most cases focus on missiles over hybrids, you're also needing to rank up your gunnery skills.  Maybe somebody flies them, but all in all it's pretty damn useless.  It's not worth the extra skill needed to fly it (which isn't a prereq for anything), nor the extra cash to buy one.  

Instead, move into a cruiser.  If you have focused on missiles you'll love the Caracel, but if you intend to continue to vest in hybrids you may prefer the Moa, which is basically a very nicely upgraded Merlin.  Since you'll need to go Cruiser anyway if you want to step up to a battleship later, you're not wasting points.  Plus, cruisers are still useful even late in the game because they are moderately powerful, and cheap to fly.  A well fitted Blackbird or long range Caracel has a place in gang combat, with enough damage to be a pest to bigger ships, but still mount weapons able to target frigs effectively.  

As far as missions go, you will laugh at level 2 missions in a Cruiser.  It becomes difficult to use them in lv3 without a lot of skills, but it's doable if you're patient.  

[Endie]

Thanks for the responses.. at least I'm silghtly reassured that I wasn't just flying like a smacktard.  That said, I gather I've gone a bit overboard in getting a ferox for L2 missions, then?

[Roac]

A Ferox is way overkill for lv2s.  For that matter, I found lv2s almost trivial in a Caracel, even with minimal (500k) skills, although they were tough to do in a Kessie at the same level.  However, if your intent is to move up the mission ladder as well as the ship category ladder, there's nothing wrong with investing in a Ferox if you have the isk and skill for it.  At low skill levels you will probably find cruisers a bit on the soft side when it comes to lv3s.  Although I don't have much desire to invest in the BC skill (I only have 1 in it now) because of the lack of prereqs, the shielding on a Ferox is nothing to laugh at, and made lv3s much more doable.  Because you can fit warfare links on a Ferox, an 'ok' number of drones and have very good shielding, they are not nearly the waste of points that destroyers are. 

I would suggest though, if you are in a Ferox, you might want to try out a lv3 mission if you have the standing for it.  If not, you may want to buy the Connections skill and rank it up one or two points to help you move on out of the lv2s.  Even at the 1m sp range you should probably handle lv3s ok (although some may be tough) in a Ferox, and the rewards are better.

[dwindlehop]

It's not worth the extra skill needed to fly it (which isn't a prereq for anything), nor the extra cash to buy one. 

Destroyers are a prereq for interdictors. Good for pvp, not good for missions.

[WayAbvPar]

There are at least a couple of level 3 missions that are just about impossible in a cruiser. Just too much shit firing at you all at once.

And yeah- Destroyers are prereqs for Interdictors, so it is worth picking up the skill eventually.

[Roac]

Destroyers are a prereq for interdictors. Good for pvp, not good for missions.

Damn, the prereq is on the ship itself, not the skillbooks.  Yeah, interdictors are useful in 0.0 group PvP, but you've got to want to specialize in that pretty bad.  Some do, and they're pretty valuable, but that would leave the only value for Destroyers, imo.

[Yoru]

Don't forget that Destroyers also have a significantly larger signature radius than a frigate, so they get locked and hit like a Cruiser. Particularly by missiles. :)

[Roac]

The role of a destroyer is to kill frigs - but you can kill them just as well in a cruiser, but get better shields, fitting, and generally have a more flexibile role in PvP / group actions. Which is to say, it's not enough punch to be worthwhile in missions, doesn't tackle any better than frigs, and doesn't kill better than cruisers.  Maybe the only saving grace for them is that nobody will target you in group actions because you're not worth it, since the only people you can kill expect to be dead soon anyway.

Well, maybe they don't suck that bad... but that line of ships really isn't worth the trouble (sans the skill for the aformentioned interdictor).

[sarius]

The role of a destroyer is to kill frigs - but you can kill them just as well in a cruiser, but get better shields, fitting, and generally have a more flexibile role in PvP / group actions. Which is to say, it's not enough punch to be worthwhile in missions, doesn't tackle any better than frigs, and doesn't kill better than cruisers.  Maybe the only saving grace for them is that nobody will target you in group actions because you're not worth it, since the only people you can kill expect to be dead soon anyway.

Well, maybe they don't suck that bad... but that line of ships really isn't worth the trouble (sans the skill for the aformentioned interdictor).

Your comments indicate skipping to cruisers and I've heard that before.  However, are there any prereqs/supports missing if destroyer training is skipped? 

I'm Caldari, for the record.

[Roac]

Interdictors (which I forgot), but they are a late game, 0.0 group PvP only role.  They can be very valuable in that role.  If you don't intend to get that, you don't need destroyer.  You don't need it anyway unless you're ready to start training toward it.  Since most Caldari are missiles, not hybrids, you're usually not going to be able to fly one well anyway as you only get one launcher slot.

Only thing of note, some people have suggested that it's not bad as a cheap mining boat, since you can fit 5 miners on it.  Osprey will get you better returns even with only 3 turret slots so long as cruisers are trained up.  Cost wise you're looking at ballpark 1.5m vs 3.5m, for insurance and fittings.  I'd still skip destroyer. 

[Raging Turtle]

/agree with everyone else here.  Dessies can be very nasty once you get your gunnery skills up, but they're a waste of time for newer players.  And personally, I have no interest in spending months training for a ship I can only use in 0.0. 

[Viin]

If they would add 1 or 2 more turret slots to Destroyers they'd be pretty damn good gun ships that are high DPS but low tankability.

[Sparky]

An 0.0 gang without an interdictor is horribly gimped but that's about all they're good for.

[Strazos]

If they would add 1 or 2 more turret slots to Destroyers they'd be pretty damn good gun ships that are high DPS but low tankability.

They already have like, what...6 slots? That's a lot.

[Soln]

I would've thought they'd be good for sniping (can they fit Cruise missiles?) but even with just RailGuns wouldn't they be useful for Tier3?  I only ask because the grind to get to my Ferox is draggin'.

[edlavallee]

Your comments indicate skipping to cruisers and I've heard that before.  However, are there any prereqs/supports missing if destroyer training is skipped? 

I'm Caldari, for the record.

No, there are no skill req's missing by skipping Destroyers. It's mainly a time thing. Taking the Destroyer route puts off cruisers a little while longer allowing your skills to increase, but going to Cruisers first and doing the resulting easy L2 missions will do the same thing. I am Caldari and went from a Kestrel into a Caracal (missle boat FTW!) and didn't skip a beat.

Blew up my first Caracal though, heading to the Library, so don't do that... And, don't forget insurance.

[Roac]

I would've thought they'd be good for sniping (can they fit Cruise missiles?) but even with just RailGuns wouldn't they be useful for Tier3?  I only ask because the grind to get to my Ferox is draggin'.

You get 8 high slots in a Comcorant; 7 turret, 1 launcher, all small.  With only 55 powergrid and one low, you would have to max high level skills plus mods just to fit one heavy launcher.  The big hit on DPS is that although you get 7 turrets, they all get -25% rate of fire penalty, giving you an effective 5.25 small turrets to play with with no ship damage bonus.  The one good thing about this boat is that you get a lot of range bonuses (+50%, plus 10% more per destroyer rank), making it somewhat viable to fit blasters, which can then be something of a threat to cruisers.  The catch is that even at this stage, you're only doing just below cruiser-level damage, with frigate-level shielding and armor.  It's really just a big frigate intended only for knife fights, and there's not much of a need for that.  Only reason frigs have a role at all is to tackle (or maybe ew).  If fighting up and close with blasters is your style, I'd suggest spending some time training and go with assault ships instead.  The harpy gets damage bonuses which brings its dps (when trained) almost on par with the Comcorant, despite only having 4 turrets.  Plus it is HARD to hit.  Its signature is a third that of the Comcorant, and its shields much stronger and harder.  You're practically immune to thermal or kinetic attacks (natural 95% thermal shield resist, 85% kinetic resist). 

[Leon]

Hmm, Destroyers have always been a dodgy topic. Some swear by their usefulness, some utterly despise it.

The problem with destroyers in general, is that its attempting to fill a role thats already been filled by far more capable ship classes : Anti-frig.
Interceptors can be some serious dogfighting machine; assault frigates are uber tanked up fleet escort ships; stealth bombers are like submarines able to one volley a frigate; and the battleship class Nos + drones is the ultimate anti-frigate combination. In return, the destroyer hardly offers anything substansive = large sig radii, slow speed with high mass, paper thin hitpoints, and lack of any real kind of DPS.

But, on the offside, I have seen some crazy thrasher setups that will kill  frigates very easily, and destroyers are dirt cheap. I suppose they are like a poor man's assault frigate where you only have to spend 900k for the ship instead of 24mil, and the cormorant with tracking computers, enhancer and spike S on the 150mm II has a range of 100km. Using a cormorant solo is seriously pointless, and much like the AF, I think that the real use of the cormorant / destroyer comes as part of being a fleet escort ship to pick off the frigates. But again, its the lack of a clearly defined role without stepping onto another ship class' toes is making the T1 destroyer an iffy class choice.

Interdictors though, are totally different. They are the ultimate tackling ship, and with a single bubble you can seriously screw over the entire enemy fleet. And they are probably the scariest anti-frig platforms I have ever faced. They have the lock speed of interceptors, they move like interceptors, and they warp like interceptors. Almost lost my ship several times to one because I kept on exiting warp right next to it. If I was half a second too slow, would've been dead, and those ships spam out precision light missiles, and thats serious death to any frigate class.