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Volm
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on: July 01, 2004, 12:12:50 AM

A worthy sequel in my opinion. I don't want to go much into story but I felt the plot was adequate, and that the Doc was portrayed very well by Alfred Molina. The ending leaves a lot of room for more sequels, and I'm guessing the next Spider-Man flick will have a battle with 2 villians (possibly Venom and Hobgoblin from the looks of it).

I left with an overall feeling of satisfaction.

Your mileage may vary.
Alluvian
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Reply #1 on: July 01, 2004, 06:23:40 AM

Why Venom?  Is that the rumor going around?  There is nothing in the movie setting up Venom in any way.  And the Harry Osborne goblin is not hobgoblin, but the second green goblin.  They use the same equipment, so there is only a minor distinction.

In the interest of sticking to one thread, I have copied my comments from the other thread over here:
Quote
Well, they setup Johnah's son and Curt Conners as well. They could develop manwolf or the lizardman. Plus doc can always come back as could the original green goblin.

The third will for SURE have Green Goblin number 2. That is a lock. It could setup lizardman for a possible fourth movie or even go ahead and put lizardman in the third if they want a second villian. I would not mind just spiderman vs harry osborne but I think the suits will want another villian to set the movie apart from the first one. Even though the harry green goblin has different motivations than daddy goblin.

Oh, I forgot to say the movie floored me. I totally loved it. They just NAILED peter parker again and all the awkward problems that spiderman has. I was waiting for the line "There is no WAY [insert hero] has to go through this!". They never used it, but you could sure feel it in the elevator scene. Oh god that scene killed me. The movie is hilarious in it's own subtle way while at the same time being dark. Great job balancing parker and spiderman screentime. I don't think either one got left out overly much. Not for this stage in his life. Awesome film. Blows the first one away IMO, and as a spiderman fanboi that is saying a lot.

Lets put our hopes on the new batman kicking ass now.
Murgos
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Reply #2 on: July 01, 2004, 07:27:49 AM

Venom is pretty doubtful, how do you explain it's presence without a shitload of exposition?  They would have to invent a whole new back story for it and probably piss off every comic geek currently in thier corner.  Unless you think it's actually a good idea to go with the original back story?  In which case who's going ot play the Beyonder?

I would say they are probably going to go through most, if not all, of the classic spidey villains first.  So next is probably lizardman, and then maybe Rhino.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
stray
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Reply #3 on: July 01, 2004, 08:01:31 AM

Actually, the rumor I've heard is that Raimi doesn't really care for the character of Venom. Hopefully that isn't true, because Eddie Brock is the most well-rounded of the bunch IMO, and Raimi could probably do it perfectly. If not for Part 3, hopefully Raimi's still available by the time they get around to it (he said it's up in the air after 3, because he plans on focusing another Ash/Evil Dead film).

On a side note: I've read a few complaints that Doc Oc was a little too "scary" and "violent" for a comic book/kid's movie. Especially with the hospital scene (which I thought fuckin' rocked). I could only imagine Man-Wolf, Lizard or Venom being much worse...So I'll be happy with any of the 3.

Anyways, like Alluvian said, it looks like they've set up Conners and Jameson already, which would be great (though another rumor I just read is that the actor who plays Conners said he's only in the storyline "just in case". No definite answer on Lizard as of yet). As for Osborne, I don't know how the hell James Franco is going to fill Defoe's shoes..Or pull off that cackle. Doesn't look good.
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Reply #4 on: July 01, 2004, 09:02:19 AM

Quote from: stray
Actually, the rumor I've heard is that Raimi doesn't really care for the character of Venom. Hopefully that isn't true, because Eddie Brock is the most well-rounded of the bunch IMO, and Raimi could probably do it perfectly.


Venom was a great character when he had no character, was just basically a suit. Once they turned him into the tongue-wagging retard he is now, then tried to make him an anti-hero, I gave up all hope on Spider-Man comics. VENOM SHOULD NOT HAVE HIS OWN FUCKING BOOK. It is a stupid character that should have stayed dead when Peter dissolved him in the church tower.

Man-Wolf is probably a stretch, considering he was never that popular in the first place. Lizard is a more likely 3rd movie villain.

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Reply #5 on: July 01, 2004, 10:44:46 AM

Quote from: HaemishM
Quote from: stray
Actually, the rumor I've heard is that Raimi doesn't really care for the character of Venom. Hopefully that isn't true, because Eddie Brock is the most well-rounded of the bunch IMO, and Raimi could probably do it perfectly.


Venom was a great character when he had no character, was just basically a suit. Once they turned him into the tongue-wagging retard he is now, then tried to make him an anti-hero, I gave up all hope on Spider-Man comics. VENOM SHOULD NOT HAVE HIS OWN FUCKING BOOK. It is a stupid character that should have stayed dead when Peter dissolved him in the church tower.

Man-Wolf is probably a stretch, considering he was never that popular in the first place. Lizard is a more likely 3rd movie villain.


I LOVED the move, like stated above, Toby and Rami nailed Parker. Also, the fight sceans with Doc Ock where killer. I really enjoyed the movie.

I think they will possbly make Harry turn in to the Hobgoblin, instead of Grean Goblin 2, just for the fact that if he is wearing the same suit, Joe Public is going to feel ripped off by seeing the same badguy twice. I agree this is a movie for dorks, and we are purists, but it still needs to sell big.

Toby and Dunst are both in for Spidy 3, but Dunst has said she will not do any more than that. I think she did a great job, but from the comics and stuff, that was not really how I pictured ger.

As to Venom, he was one of my favorites, I could do with out the big slimy tongue, but I also liked Carnage, and the Spidy and Venom vs Carnage where great. I agree they would have to totally mangle the story to get Venom in the moive, but with the quality of the CGI, I think they could do him really well now.
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Reply #6 on: July 01, 2004, 12:03:25 PM

Quote from: stray
(he said it's up in the air after 3, because he plans on focusing another Ash/Evil Dead film).


Holy fuck that's the best news I've heard all week!

Wiiiiii!
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Reply #7 on: July 01, 2004, 04:54:57 PM

My personal theory is that given the introduction and exposition of Jameson's son, the famous astronaut, that Venom will NOT be appearing in the third movie, but there is a good chance that the Symbiote will.

I imagine that Jameson's son will find the symbiote during one of his space missions, bring it back, and they will use a good chunk of the third movie working the Venom "back story" into the background.  Peter gets the symbiote, experiments with it, struggles to resist its violent urges, uses it to defeat (or most likely beat the living shit out of) the chosen villian for that movie (pretty good shot that it is Osbourne), and then rejects it at the end when he realises exactly how violent the thing is turning him (hey, I damn near killed Harry, this suit is fucking bad!).  Ending with the symbiote settling on Eddy Brock as its new host in the end of the movie (much like the Osbourne setup in the end of this one)

Edit to ask:  Ok, I have a bit of an unfair advantage on this one (working in a movie theatre and all and having seen the movie about 5 times so far) but did anyone else spot the Stan Lee appearance in the movie?  I am pretty sure I spotted him, but I wanted confirmation.

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Reply #8 on: July 01, 2004, 05:35:29 PM

Yeah, that was him (He had a cameo in part 1 also, during the Times Square scene). I remember seeing him in the Hulk too (with Lou Ferigno), but not the others.
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Reply #9 on: July 01, 2004, 08:36:16 PM

Daredevil too...

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Reply #10 on: July 02, 2004, 06:56:49 AM

The theatre I saw it in was half filled with very attentive fans and the other half was annoying kids and their parents (at least one kid erupting into tears for every fight scene).

Anyway, the Stan Lee cameo got big laughs in our theatre.  I don't know why the rest laughed, but I laughed because his cameo was doing the exact same thing he did in the first one.  Push a kid out of the way of falling debris.  He must have a Captain Stacey complex or something :)
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Reply #11 on: July 03, 2004, 01:22:18 AM

Just saw the movie tonight.  I thought it was good, but not as great as I'd heard from some people, who wanted to proclaim it as the best superhero movie ever.  Sorry, but it's hard to beat Superman 2, Batman, and Mystery Men on my list.  I think I might even have liked the first Spider-Man better.

As for the next movie, clearly they are setting it up for Green Goblin (II) or Hobgoblin, but I would like to see someone else.  Perhaps they can do multiple villians per movie like the Batman series did.  My vote would also be for The Lizard; he'd be very cool all done up in CG.  That's Dr. Curt Conners, by the way... Peter's professor.

Bruce
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Reply #12 on: July 03, 2004, 01:24:26 AM

Speaking of cameos, anyone catch Bruce Campbell as the snooty usher?  I totally didn't recognize it was him!

Bruce
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Reply #13 on: July 03, 2004, 02:27:19 AM

The original rumors for the second movie all had the Lizard in them, either Lizard/Venom or Lizard/Ock, so my money would be on the Lizard.

Or, they could go for depressing realism and make it about Sin Eater.

As far a Dunst goes, she doesn't seem like the model type, but at the same time MJ as a model got really old really fast anyway. (In the comics I mean) She was an annoying character for like 15 years. (Mid 80s through 2000 or so)
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It's easy to forget what made Marvel characters so different from the Golden Age characters. At the time, the idea that a super hero would have to pay rent, date and do laundry was a revelation.
---

I bought Amazing Spider-Man #300 (first venom in costume and 300th aniv) for $2. He quickly got over-exposed. He came back in issues 316-317 and then again in the 30s, and then there was Carnage, blah blah blah. His origin story is really messed up, either the real one (Secret Wars) or the cartoon outer-space one.

Which reminds me, in Secret Wars 1 Spider-Man kicked the entire X-Mens collective ass. Good times.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Reply #14 on: July 03, 2004, 02:39:57 PM

Despite being one of the first mega-crossovers which helped kill the genre, Secret Wars I was actually pretty cool.  There was a lot of meat and depth in the various storylines.

Bruce
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Reply #15 on: July 03, 2004, 03:51:30 PM

If they found some clever way to introduce the suit in the third movie, I wouldn't mind seeing Venon in a fourth.

Venom wasn't a bad character at the beginning.  I rather enjoyed the whole symbiote suit thing, actually.  It wasn't until later when they turned him into a complete psychotic killer with a 3 foot grin that he became a joke.  It only got worse wirth Carnage, and whatever the fuck offspring they pulled out of their asses after that.
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Reply #16 on: July 03, 2004, 04:44:19 PM

I'm definitely down with the Lizard as a baddie, and I think after the setup at the end of this one they're gonna have to go with Hobgoblin for Spider-Man 3.  Personally I'd rather see someone like Electro or Rhino, but eh, what're ya gonna do.
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Reply #17 on: July 03, 2004, 09:57:15 PM

One of the nifty things about my Spiderman 1 DVD set is it included a bunch of backstory on a second DVD.

The Hobgoblin's outside of the Osborn family.   Basically some unknown figure came across a Green Goblin weapon cache and actually improved it.   Hobgoblin is Green Goblin++.  

You're looking at a Green Goblin II return setup at the end of Spiderman 2.   Harry ends up being the second Green Goblin.

I'm thinking we may not have seen the last of Doc Oct.   We saw him plunging towards his little artificial sun, but not actually being sucked into it.

The Lizard's storyline is fairly interesting, would make a good basis of the third movie.   Between him and the Scorpion I could see either working out for Movie #3.

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Reply #18 on: July 03, 2004, 10:21:40 PM

Hobgoblin is one of the most fucked up bits of Spider-Man continuity out there, having been retconned several times to change who he actually was.

Harry Osborne, in the comics, of course, became the second Green Goblin, and, I believe, similarly died.

Of course, they may well make Harry into the Hobgoblin in the movies so they can actually have a "new" villain.

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Reply #19 on: July 04, 2004, 06:35:56 AM

The movie totally kicked ass.  Doc Ock looked awesome and so did all the action scenes. My favorite scenes were the operating room and the train. I went out and saw it on opening day and for me to do that means it must appeal to me greatly. I can't remember the last time I went to see a movie in the theater.

As for the next movie, I think they will go for Lizard. Doctor Conners was hurt by Doc Ock in this movie and Peter got him to the hospital (if I remember right), so that could give him a reason to invent a DNA cocktail that turns him into the Lizard. There is also the possiblity for Man-Wolf since they introduced us to John Jameson. I don't think the public would really be up in arms if they made Harry into the Green Goblin II because I am sure most people would see that Harry became the Green Goblin to avenge his father and I think that is something that the public can sympathize with.

As much as every geek out there wants to see Venom/Carnage, I actually don't want to see it. I think it would be just to difficult to really explain what is going on in just one movie. Remember Spidey kicked some ass using the Symbiote suit before learning that it was an alien life form and then he had to use the help of Mr. Fantasic to remove it for the first time and a church bell to remove it the second time, after that is when Eddie Brock found it. If they did that storyline, I am sure they would skip over the Mr. Fantastic part for simplicity. I think that the backstory to Venom is a bit too complicated for the big screen. I prefer simple little backstories that can easily be explained like the Green Goblin and Doc Ock.

There are plenty of villians for them to use that have simple easily explained backstories. Personally, the villian I want to see the most is Sandman, he was always my favorite villian. I think that with CG effects that are available it would make for a fantastic villian. Other villians I would like to see in future movies are the rest of the Sinister Six (Sandman, Vulture, Mysterio, and Electro) as well as Shocker and Rhino. I also wouldn't mind if Black Cat made an appearance since that would provide a little love triangle which would be amusing.

Alright, I think that is enough babbling for one day.
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Reply #20 on: July 04, 2004, 08:45:50 AM

Quote from: Madman

As for the next movie, I think they will go for Lizard. Doctor Conners was hurt by Doc Ock in this movie and Peter got him to the hospital (if I remember right)

Nope, you remember incorrectly.  Conners wasn't in the operating room/Evil Dead homage.  You can see when he's lecturing in class, though, that he's already missing his arm.

Quote
There is also the possiblity for Man-Wolf since they introduced us to John Jameson.

I personally can't see them going with such a cheesy villain.  I think they introduced Jameson into this movie just like they've had Betty Brant; as a wink to the comic fans.


Quote
I don't think the public would really be up in arms if they made Harry into the Green Goblin II because I am sure most people would see that Harry became the Green Goblin to avenge his father and I think that is something that the public can sympathize with.

No way is that going to happen.  Why would they make another movie with the same villain?  They'll transform him into Hobgoblin, if anything, regardless of what the source material says, and I can't really blame 'em for going that route.
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Reply #21 on: July 04, 2004, 09:01:37 AM

Quote from: Big Gulp

Nope, you remember incorrectly.  Conners wasn't in the operating room/Evil Dead homage.  You can see when he's lecturing in class, though, that he's already missing his arm.


AHh you are right. You know what I was thinking? The console game. In the game they have Doc Ock visit Dr Conners after the first explosion at his lab and Spidey ends up taking him to the hospital. I knew it wasn't Conners in the Evil Dead homage.

Quote
I personally can't see them going with such a cheesy villain.  I think they introduced Jameson into this movie just like they've had Betty Brant; as a wink to the comic fans.


Yeah that is probably true, but they did open up the possibilty. They might do it though just for the simple backstory it provides. John finds a rock on the moon, steals the rock and becomes Man-Wolf. You can't get much simpler than that. Plus since Man-Wolf eventually stalked his own father it would give them a chance to have more JJJ.

Quote
No way is that going to happen.  Why would they make another movie with the same villain?  They'll transform him into Hobgoblin, if anything, regardless of what the source material says, and I can't really blame 'em for going that route.


See, I think the Green Goblin and the Hobgoblin are essentially the same villian type. They both use the same sort of equipment, so the only real difference is the name and motives. Now I can see that being the reason to just use Harry as the Hobgoblin, but if the name is really the only thing different then why not just say he takes on the Green Goblin persona to avenge his fathers death? I think that would work just fine and it would sit well with me even if I didn't know the whole storyline.
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Reply #22 on: July 04, 2004, 02:09:10 PM

The original green goblin was killed in Germany while acting as his alter-ego reporter.

Hobgoblin was a 2-bit thug named Jack O'Lantern who bounced around on a "pogo pad" (I swear I didn't just make that up), found the green goblin weapons, and became hobgoblin...then later got changed into a real goblin during Inferno (even though I thought the events of Inferno kind of turned out fake...)

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Reply #23 on: July 04, 2004, 04:31:32 PM

Well, while we're all showing off our pedantic comic book knowledge, the original Green Goblin rode a broomstick, not that floating bat thingy.

Anyway, the point is, it's a totally new continuity so they can do whatever the hell they want.

Bruce
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Reply #24 on: July 04, 2004, 06:25:57 PM

Could, but they've been remaining pretty faithful to the comic so far.   A less faithful replication probably wouldn't have even bothered mentioning Harry or his desire for vengence at all.

I suppose I could be a stick in the mud and point out that the Mask Harry happens across in his fathers old cache is already green.

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Reply #25 on: July 06, 2004, 08:51:54 AM

Some comic background...

Original Green Goblin was Norman Osbourne.  Just like in the movie.  The origin isn't really the same, especially in how Mendell Strom (sp?) is handled, but basically the Green Goblin is done pretty similar to the comics.

In the comics, green goblin 1 killed gwen stacy (peters first serious love affair) by throwing her off a bridge (technically the web spiderman shot to save gwen is what snapped her neck).  The battle moves off to an abandoned building and there is a big fight, with Green Goblin 1 being "killed" in a very similar fashion to the first movie.  20 years later it turns out that Norman DIDN'T die, but instead woke up in the morgue and broke out.  (sideplot involving norman killing a replacement body and harry bribing the coroner to falsify the autopsy to remove suspicion from his late father.  Harry didn't know his dad came back from the dead.  The bribe was enough for the coroner to not question the second body not matching normans though)

Anyway....  Harry becomes the second Green Goblin after finding his fathers goody stash.  Harry was already a drug addict at this point in the comics (very risque at the time and marvel had to drop the comic code approval to run the drug addict storyline).  Harry goes overboard on the goblin serum and keeps injecting more of it to become stronger and stronger.  In the end he overdoses and dies as he is about to finally kill spiderman.

Green Goblin 3 is a mess.  This is just some schmuck to finds the stash and gets taken out in relatively short order.  I don't remember his name.  It messes up the whole 'green goblin is in the family' method of differentiating green goblin from hobgoblin.  All you really have is the costume anymore really.

Green Goblin 4 was a kid who again found the stash somehow.  How badly hidden IS this stash anyway?  And how many damn spares do they HAVE?  Green Goblin 4 actually is a superhero and gets his own comic book.  Short lived I believe.  I don't know what happened to him in the end.

Anyway, at the end of the clone saga Green Goblin 1 Norman Osbourne comes back as the Green Goblin villian some 20 YEARS after they killed him off.


Hobgoblin is about as convoluted as Green Goblin.

The original Hobgoblin was a mystery story that went on a long time.  Lots of false accusations, with the hobgoblin drugging people and putting them in suits to be discovered.  Flash Thompson was one of the ones framed for instance.  Eventually daily bugle reporter ned leeds was killed in Germany and it surfaced that he was the hobgoblin (surfaced to spiderman via kingpin but not publicly known).

The mercenary that contracted his killing Something Macendale took over his place.  Becoming the second Hobgoblin.  Later on, in 'Hobgoblin Lives', Macendale was having his court case after being captured.  He blurted out that Ned Leeds was the original hobgoblin.  Shortly after Macendale was killed inside his prison cell.  And a hobgoblin again started terrorizing town.  Spiderman gets together with Betty Brandt (ned leeds ex wife and peter parkers first girlfriend, the jealous bitch) to find out what is going on.

Turns out in the end that Ned Leeds was never really the hobgoblin at all.  He was mind controlled by the original hobgoblin to wear the suit on command, and the original hobgoblin also intentionally slipped information to Macendale so that Ned would be killed, putting all his former crimes on his head if ever discovered.  I don't even remember the name of the True hobgoblin.  Some business tycoon though.  Took the death of ned leeds and the Macendale green goblin as an excuse to put a pause in his life of crime.  There was more backstory here with an elaborate mixup between him and his brother, Ned Leeds being chosen because he was close to exposing the hobgoblin, etc...

ANYWAY...

I would be okay with them making harry into hobgoblin or green goblin.  They are really the same villian anyway.  Motivations changed depending on who was inside the suit.  The only difference for the movie would be a costume change for harry.
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Reply #26 on: July 06, 2004, 09:06:52 AM

My knowledge of Marvel villains being fairly limited....what about Doctor Doom? Maybe I'm confused, perhaps he was more prominent in Captain American or Fantastic Four, but didn't Spidey and Doctor Doom butt heads from time to time? Or am I just thinking of Secret Wars?

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Reply #27 on: July 06, 2004, 09:46:09 PM

I do NOT want 2 villains in the next movie. Right now with one villian we're keeping the focus on Peter Parker and Spiderman. If we go the two villain route we end up making it the villians movie which is one of the downfalls of the original Batman movies.

I suspect the next movie will deal with Peter's guilt over Harry becoming Green Goblin and his reluctance to fight his best friend.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
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