Return of the Book Thread

[Samwise]

All right, I split the Song of Ice and Fire stuff into its own thread.  Or at least most of it.  You're welcome.   

I'm on my last Black Company book now (Silver Spike; it took me a while to find the "Books of the South" collection so I'm reading it last).  Liking it, and sad that soon I will have read them all and I'll need to find something else to get me through my workout.   

[WayAbvPar]

Silver Spike is my fav of the bunch. Enjoy!

[Chimpy]

Toadkiller Dog is probably the best character Cook wrote.

[Evildrider]

Ghost Story, the new Dresden Files book, is out and its pretty damn good.  It definitely felt like a dark turn for the whole series.  Lots of good stuff though, including a deeper look into Dresden's past.

[Johny Cee]

Ghost Story, the new Dresden Files book, is out and its pretty damn good.  It definitely felt like a dark turn for the whole series.  Lots of good stuff though, including a deeper look into Dresden's past.

I finally read Changes and Ghost Story last week.

Changes was, quite frankly, not very good.  Characterization stumbled all over the place, Anita Blake levels of power inflation, and everyone falling in line for Harry's "They took my daughter! Argh!" nonsense unless the plot called for the character/s to be stupid (most of the Wizards).  The Cavalry showing up out of nowhere was pretty bleh as well.  The major redeeming bit of that book was Lea, who was largely pretty awesome while still walking the line that she is basically a villain (with basically some anti-villain thrown in).

Ghost Story was much better, and hammered away on how much of a fuckhead Harry was in the previous book as well as returning to more of the old format and feel, though the Saving Private Ryan homage was pretty uninteresting.  The flashbacks to Harry's youth and Justin were well-done, combining to show some redeeming features to that time, and that Justin's wasn't that bad a place for him to grow up until he had a full-blown villainous breakdown.


Murphy is basically a joke character at this point, and she needs to go away. 

[jth]

Ghost Story should finally arrive in the mail today. I only finished Changes two months ago, so to fill the gap I experimented with other Urban Fantasy authors. Mike Carey's Felix Castor books were as good as expected, the first one had slightly more serious tone and felt a tiny bit dry but the rest were pretty much on par with Butcher's work. It's been a couple of years since the last (fifth) book came out, but it wrapped up things pretty well so the (possibly long) wait won't be an issue for me.

Next ones were Richard Kadrey's Sandman Slim books, the first one (Sandman Slim) was excellent but I guess with the amounts of violence it might not be for everyone's tastes, I didn't mind at all though. The second (Kill the Dead) was good too, but the plot went a bit overboard in several places. Next book should be out in October.

Harry Connolly's Twenty Palaces books were a refreshing change, since the protagonist isn't all powerful but instead has to manage with (literally) a paper knife. There are two books out, Child of Fire and Game of Cages, both were fun reads. A third book should be out soon.

I also tried to read "Unshapely Things" by Mark Del Franco and "Magic Bites" by Ilona Andrews, but after about 10 pages of both I decided they are probably not for my tastes. I might give them another chance someday, who knows.

Besides those, I got books from Kevin Hearne, Ben Aaronovitch and Mark Hodder waiting on the bookshelf, I'll give those a try after Ghost Story.

[Arrrgh]

The Iron Druid series is good in a Dresdenish sort of way.

[Sky]

Just finished the Algebraist. I think there was a good book in there, but the plot threads seemed to unravel about halfway through and I don't think Banks did much to finish the book. The characters all had a lot of potential for interesting growth and dialogue but he spent most of the novel just kind of navel gazing. Now, I'm not one to criticize the extended reflection upon almost any topic, but when it's done at the expense of the novel, it's way too much. Wasted potential.

[Sky]

An update for Haem. I was perusing our "new" book shelves and noticed his second Bridge book, but I didn't see the first. So I asked my fiancee to check circ count, and the second has circed 4 times in 10 month, but the first only once. Turns out someone forgot to mark the first one as a new book so it went straight into the stacks, which is kind of a death sentence for obscure authors. But at least one person was interested enough to go back and find it!

[Murgos]

Ghost Story was much better, and hammered away on how much of a fuckhead Harry was in the previous book as well as returning to more of the old format and feel, though the Saving Private Ryan homage was pretty uninteresting.  The flashbacks to Harry's youth and Justin were well-done, combining to show some redeeming features to that time, and that Justin's wasn't that bad a place for him to grow up until he had a full-blown villainous breakdown.

Murphy is basically a joke character at this point, and she needs to go away. 

I'm about half-way through Ghost story and Butcher has become a really compelling writer.  I fond myself wondering at transitions and thinking, "Should't you have spent three more paragraphs here?" but the energy level is top-notch can't put it down stuff.

As far as Murphy goes I think she is being set up for a classic heel turn (which is actually where she came in at...).  Again, I'm only half way through so it could flip by the end.

[HaemishM]

An update for Haem. I was perusing our "new" book shelves and noticed his second Bridge book, but I didn't see the first. So I asked my fiancee to check circ count, and the second has circed 4 times in 10 month, but the first only once. Turns out someone forgot to mark the first one as a new book so it went straight into the stacks, which is kind of a death sentence for obscure authors. But at least one person was interested enough to go back and find it!

So that means 4 people checked out my 2nd book (or it was checked out 4 times)? That's cool!

Finished Game of Thrones this weekend. I didn't want to go directly into book 2 because I knew I'd probably just keep going and I like to mix things up. I started on a self-published book by a British author - Mel Comley's Impeding Justice. I want to like it but I'm having a hard time with it. The dialog is pretty stiff and the main character feels a bit Mary Sue-ish. It's a fairly short book I think, so if I can make it through I've already decided I'll be reading Card's Ender's Game.

[Sky]

So that means 4 people checked out my 2nd book (or it was checked out 4 times)? That's cool!

Probably 4 different people, renewals don't count as circ. The first one is on her desk to get stamped as a "new" book and put on the shelf. It's in the main traffic area so gets the most browsing. She's been weeding it pretty hard, and it's really empty thanks to budget cuts, but she's going to make an exception for you (as we normally do with our local authors). Most books stay on the new shelf for a year. Anyway, just wanted to let you know!

[HaemishM]

I appreciate the support. Anything to get some readers. I'll wait until next year to mention that the third book came out in May of this year. 

[Sky]

I'll let her know, though funds are dry so we'll see. Can't deny the public their megapublisher juggernauts of voluminous tepidness (Patterson, et al).  

[ghost]

I appreciate the support. Anything to get some readers. I'll wait until next year to mention that the third book came out in May of this year. 

I'm going to purchase them when I get home.  I'll let you know what I think.  It may be a while until I can get through them, what with a 2.5 year old and 10 month old in the house. 

[Viin]

I appreciate the support. Anything to get some readers. I'll wait until next year to mention that the third book came out in May of this year.  

I think you answered this before but I can't find it - do you get more money from the paper copies or the digital Kindle copies sold?

[HaemishM]

Technically, more money from the individual paperback's but if you have an eBook reader, you can get all 3 books in one compilation for $5.25 - which nets me almost as much money as one $12 paperback.

[ghost]

Technically, more money from the individual paperback's but if you have an eBook reader, you can get all 3 books in one compilation for $5.25 - which nets me almost as much money as one $12 paperback.

I just bought the trilogy for the Nook.  I read a few pages.  Seems interesting.  I feel like I'm reading your posts though.  That'll be tough to get around. 

[Hammond]

Haemish the html link to bridge chronicles in your sig is wrong.  It directs me to a Japanese Majong site which while interesting I am not sure that is what you have in mind. :) http://www.bridgehchronicles.info/  (extra h)

[HaemishM]

Goddamn motherfucker html.

I feel like I'm reading your posts though. That'll be tough to get around.

I'm not sure whether to take that as a knock on my writing abilities or my posting. 

[ghost]

Don't worry brother.  It's not a knock.  I've just been reading your posts for over three years now, and it might be tough to make the transition. 

[Morat20]

As far as Murphy goes I think she is being set up for a classic heel turn (which is actually where she came in at...).  Again, I'm only half way through so it could flip by the end.

He wrote a short story -- it's in his collection -- dealing with Murphy between the end of Changes and the start of Ghost Story (I haven't read the latter). I rather enjoyed it and a similar one (from earlier in the timeline) from Thomas' POV.

Mostly for the outside perspective of Dresden.

[Evildrider]

As far as Murphy goes I think she is being set up for a classic heel turn (which is actually where she came in at...).  Again, I'm only half way through so it could flip by the end.

He wrote a short story -- it's in his collection -- dealing with Murphy between the end of Changes and the start of Ghost Story (I haven't read the latter). I rather enjoyed it and a similar one (from earlier in the timeline) from Thomas' POV.

Mostly for the outside perspective of Dresden.

I don't think Murph has it in her to go full on bad guy.  She just lost her job then, after Dresden's death, got pulled into being the leader of a rag tag band that tries to fill the void that he left behind. 

My guess is that she will finally give in and pick up one of the swords, which seems to be her fate anyway.

[Morat20]

I don't think Murph has it in her to go full on bad guy.  She just lost her job then, after Dresden's death, got pulled into being the leader of a rag tag band that tries to fill the void that he left behind. 

My guess is that she will finally give in and pick up one of the swords, which seems to be her fate anyway.

Kind of a shit way for God to give her the sword. "We'll savage your professional career, martyring you for doing the right thing, and piss on the careeer you believed in -- oh, and your whole family is or has been cops, so there's that too" -- all because you said you wouldn't take up the sword because you already had a job.

Although, to be fair, I think she got busted down in ranks before she got the 'job offer'.

I just don't see her picking up one of the swords full-time -- she doesn't seem to have that redemptive streak that the other bearers had. Beat down the bad guys? Sure. Hold them off while trying to get them to come back to the Light? Not so much.

Going Full Metal Jacket on Red Court is a bit more her than the whole Dumbledore redemption route.

[Murgos]

Finished Ghost Story.  I really liked it, there is a lot of Character development/progression which had been kind of lacking previously.

I still think within the next few books we are going to be watching Dresden have to confront a cracked Murphy.  Maybe not a full on heel turn but not altogether there either, she's been through a lot.

[Johny Cee]

I don't think Murph has it in her to go full on bad guy.  She just lost her job then, after Dresden's death, got pulled into being the leader of a rag tag band that tries to fill the void that he left behind. 

My guess is that she will finally give in and pick up one of the swords, which seems to be her fate anyway.

Kind of a shit way for God to give her the sword. "We'll savage your professional career, martyring you for doing the right thing, and piss on the careeer you believed in -- oh, and your whole family is or has been cops, so there's that too" -- all because you said you wouldn't take up the sword because you already had a job.

Eh?  God had nothing to do with it.

Murphy lost her job because she kept helping Harry circumvent the law and bend rules, and because Rudoulph was a stooge for the Red Court.  Butcher definitely showed that Murphy knew she was throwing her career away by helping Harry out, and it was her choice.

Dresden-verse, the "White God" (basically the Judeo-Christian God) is a big free will guy, which is why Knights offer people a choice.  There isn't much "have no Gods before me" in this version of God, as Uriel seemed to have no problem with Odin in Changes and Sanya is an agnostic.


I think a big part of this Universe is that you have to choose Mundane World or Spooky World.  If you choose Mundane, the spooky stuff seems to get fuzzy and be forgotten.  If you choose Spooky, the normal world spits you out to the margins where you intersect with the criminals and the crazies.

Murphy used to just handle the Mundane side, but as soon as she started getting into the Spooky side she was increasingly marginalized from regular society.  You could say the same for Susan, who was a successful journalist until she started poking around too much and ended up where she did.  Also, Butters:  as long as he covered up oddities, he was fine.  When he started pointing things out, he ended up in a looney bin for months.

It's arguable.  The early books definitely made it clear that Spooky and Mundane didn't really mix (the loup garou, the "Harry wrecks a TV stage and cameras" episode, and the way there are no tall tales floating around about all the magic floating around) and Harry used to talk quite a bit about how, even hours after an event, people suddenly remembered gas main explosions or escaped zoo animals or whatnot.

Late books there is more spillover between sides.

Although, to be fair, I think she got busted down in ranks before she got the 'job offer'.

She was busted to Sergeant for disappearing for three days during the middle of an investigation to help Harry assault Arctis Tor to rescue Molly.  Murphy knew she was going to be in serious trouble with the brass when she decided to skip out.

Basically, Murphy got fired because she kept volunteering to hat up and go after Bad Guys with Harry, or covered/helped him out when there were VERY good reasons for the police to be after him.

[Morat20]

Good points. The Sword really is a good choice for her, insofar as she seems unable to turn away from the Spooky.

My only remaining problem is, well, she doesn't seem to be that big on the 'forgive' part of the job. (I haven't read Ghost Story yet, but the hints in the thread are that doesn't change). She'd be a better fit for some of the more...militant....supernatural organizations (I forget which one they called 'Jesuits with Flamethrowers') but since the whole plot seems to be winding towards Armageddon, perhaps it's time the swords were in hands more suited to war than one-on-one redemption.

Then again, maybe that's just Michael. They all seemed to be trying not to kill the Deniarian hosts, but none of of the others had quite the faith Michael did.

[Johny Cee]

I also thought Ghost Story was a pretty good return to form after a couple of meh books.

One of the best theories I've heard about the series lately, about Changes:




Some pet peeves:

1.  Everyone is in love with Harry.  Not "think he's cute" or "I'd like to try a relationship with him" or even "I'd love to bang him, but really it wouldn't work out".  In True Love.

This largely wasn't a problem before the last couple of books.  Murphy and Harry had some chemistry, and thought about a relationship, but they carried on (or at least tried to) with other people.  I really liked the idea of the Luccio relationship even if it didn't go on long term, as it made a huge amount of sense considering they both had so much in common.

Ditching the Luccio relationship as a result of Evil Mind Control so she could be the Mole was ridiculous.  Hell, make her the Mole (without mindcontrolled relationship) have have them slowly breakup after.

Basically as of Changes/Ghost Story?  Molly is in Love with Harry.  Murphy is in Love with Harry.  Susan is in Love with Harry.  Luccio seemed to moving back towards the Harry wagon.

Bonus: The Molly character progression.

Molly having a teen crush on Harry was a great plot and character point because that is exactly what teenage girls do.  They develop weird crushes on older guys because they are crazy messes of hormones.  Fortunately, they also mature a hell of a lot faster and are far more sane than guys who stay mildly crazy until their mid-20s.

Having her move from a teen crush to being madly in love with a guy that doesn't reciprocate the feelings in her 20s?  Fuckstupid.


2.  Supernatural speed and strength is the new Stormtrooper armor.  This has only really kicked into gear the last couple of books.

Murphy weights 100 pounds soaking wet, but luckily she studied some martial arts at a McDojo.  The last few books, she has had no problem going hand-to-hand with all kinds of critters who happily chew up every other regular/supernatural threat that shows up.  Her short story is especially bad about this.

I mean... critters with a couple centuries experience added on top of car-hurling superstrength and the ability to move so fast they blink should be pulling off Murphy's arms and using them to beat her to death.  Seriously, all these critters need to do is grab her incredibly briefly and they should seriously fuck up any portion of her anatomy that they grabbed.

Harry and Daniel Carpenter are both guilty here as well.  

When Thomas was Harry's muscle, it made sense.  Thomas had the whole speed, strength and healing thing going on.  He also tended to take a pretty serious amount of abuse from critters.  Michael had a magic sword, and he still got seriously messed up regularly.  Even Kincaid, who may or not be human, largely was a badass because of good planning and serious firepower.

I have no problem with Murphy being a badass, but Murphy stopped being a believable badass a while ago.  The character was fine when it was quick thinking, planning, and using modern technology.  Make silver bullets out of your grandmother's earings so you can shoot the loup-garou while Harry distracts it?  Yes.  Use a chainsaw (or a car) against slow moving plant monster?  Yes.  Automatic weapons and grenades against sword waving dudes?  Yes.

Especially her short story.  And Changes.  


3.  Evil will always win because Good is dumb.

The White Council, authorities, and everyone else can be amazingly stupid whenever the plot calls for it.  On the other hand, Evil tends to be ridiculously stupid whenever the plot calls for a grand set-piece.  Changes was full of stupid on both sides.


4.  Taking your daughter doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want, asshole.

I give credit to Butcher for rubbing this in Harry's face next book.  

[Murgos]

I agree with most of what you said except for the 'love' interest parts.  First of all, of the four women you name there has only been a 'relationship' with two of them.  Over a 10+ year period. Uh, big deal.

Next, Molly.  Molly, has issues. Being blindly infatuated with Harry (her mentor, ultimate authority, surrogate father, moral guide, life saver and a arguably ultimate apex male in North America) is pretty normal all things considered.

Murphy has aligned her self with Dresden so far that she has gone so deep down the rabbit hole that her entire psyche is built around a Harry myth.  She has to take most of what Harry has to tell her for granted.  He basically tells her whats true and what's not.  If Harry is wrong ever, about anything, her world falls apart.  I'm telling you she is cracking/has cracked.

Susan is/was actually a fairly normal relationship.  Baby momma drama and regrets.  Big deal.

Luccio, again, was under mental duress.  Why she even counts is beyond me.  That she doesn't loathe him isn't twew wuv.

[Johny Cee]

Just to be less nerdy:

I liked All the Pretty Horses, by Cormac McCarthy.  A one sitting read, you just kind of breeze through it.  I kind of wish I had read it before I read No Country, as I think Horses kind of informs the characters in Country.

Also tracked down the last two Chandler novels I hadn't read.  I quite liked Little Sister.  Lady in the Lake was fine, but not anything amazing.


A great entertainment read is Chris Wooding's Retribution Falls and Blacklung Captain.  Basically a mashup of pirate movie and steampunk, but with flying ships in an early Industrializtion.  Mostly pretty light-hearted in tone, but everyone is a bastard in this world.  By and large, they're sympathetic bastards...  but they're still bastards.

[Johny Cee]

I agree with most of what you said except for the 'love' interest parts.  First of all, of the four women you name there has only been a 'relationship' with two of them.  Over a 10+ year period. Uh, big deal.

Let me restate a bit:

It would be great if Harry had an actual dating life in the tenish years of the books, with any or all of those characters.  Let him have a couple happy or messy relationships that don't work out....  the guy has had like one actual relationship in his life, if we don't count screwing around with Elaine.


My problem is that in Changes, we had pre-breakdown-Murphy carrying a torch, we had Molly in love with Harry, we had Susan (despite years of separation) obviously still very much interested in Harry, and we had Luccio backing and comforting Harry in front of the White Council after he was an ass.  Agreed, Lucio may be stretching it a bit.

It's a really bad sign in a book when all of your significant opposite sex characters have romantic notions towards your lead character, and your book isn't a romance.  It's not a series problem, and may not be, but it is a problem with this book.

Bring back Susan and have her be over her one year of dating Harry, or have Luccio be very standoffish because of the whole mind rape thing, or have Molly carrying on with the virgin Rameriz.  (That last, by the way, has potential.  Molly was a wild child, have her go to Harry for advice on her prudish boyfriend.  Embarrassment and hilarity to follow!)

I didn't include Mab, because that was just her screwing Harry to fuck with him.

Next, Molly.  Molly, has issues. Being blindly infatuated with Harry (her mentor, ultimate authority, surrogate father, moral guide, life saver and a arguably ultimate apex male in North America) is pretty normal all things considered.

I have a problem with the Molly angle, despite the fact pairing her with Harry makes the most sense, because it invalidates her character development over the last few books.  Yeah, she has issues... but she's been dealing with them.  She went from fucked up runaway to (mostly) dealing with her life, and from victim to assistant to believable action girl.

Again, in a different book this may have worked.  Sticking it in the same book that Susan shows up and tries to stir up some action and the Murphy situation was pushed forward again wasn't a good idea. 

[Khaldun]

I haven't gotten as far in the Dresden books kind of for this reason. I think it shows the difference between building a series like this around a genuine ensemble or workplace/institution and building it around a single protagonist. In the latter case, you almost can't avoid having every single other person who shows up becoming a mere satellite to the protagonist, which means no matter how much he/she tells you he's fallible, etc., he/she is by definition pretty much better than anyone else, if only because he/she survives till the next book and kind of/sort of wins. You can avoid this a bit if you've got a character on a quest or journey, but that is something that has only been introduced gradually in the Dresden books. I enjoyed what I read fairly well but it just got old. Even with moving it forward it got old because Harry as a character got old, his situation got old, etc. The narrative furniture started to smell bad no matter how comfortable it was to sit in for a while.

[Evildrider]

Murphy never gave into any of her feeling towards Dresden til almost the end of Changes, and that was supposed to be their first real date.  As a matter of fact there's always been a little something there but she always pushed it aside because of their working relationship.

Susan was always the real love of Harry's life til she got fucked over, plus she was the mother of his child.  Elaine might have been Harry's first but they were set up to become an item by DuMorne.

Molly was going to give herself to Dresden on the first night that he became her teacher.  It was stated that her crush started even before he became her teacher and started noticing her magic abilities.  Molly and Ramirez was all talk they were never even dating.  Also Molly realizes that most of the other guys out there won't work out, and if she's going to have someone it's going to have to be a wizard or at least someone with a longer than normal lifespan.

Also with Molly, Harry has stated that her abilities with magic make her more open to emotional damage.

Luccio was really only involved cuz she was mindfucked by the Black Council.  She has stated that she likes Dresden but she has made herself emotionally unavailable for years, which is why she was surprised that Morgan still held a torch for her.

[Murgos]

I have a problem with the Molly angle, despite the fact pairing her with Harry makes the most sense, because it invalidates her character development over the last few books.  Yeah, she has issues... but she's been dealing with them.  She went from fucked up runaway to (mostly) dealing with her life, and from victim to assistant to believable action girl.

Again, in a different book this may have worked.  Sticking it in the same book that Susan shows up and tries to stir up some action and the Murphy situation was pushed forward again wasn't a good idea. 

But Molly's crush has been a background theme for 4 or 5 books now, ignoring it when 'the other woman' shows up would have been disingenuous.  I don't think Molly and Dresden will ever hook up, your concerns here just seem invalid.

As for Susan, you keep talking like she's relevant for some future intrigue.  Did you not finish Changes yet?

[Rasix]

Is reading Side Jobs generally recommended before picking up Ghost Story? Sorry, if this has already been addressed, but I'm trying to not read what you guys are currently writing as to avoid spoilers.