Return of the Book Thread

[Quinton]

Apparently these brilliant people point to the original Star Trek as true science fiction adventures about manly men and not tainted by "messages" or "social justice".

They clearly watched a different Star Trek than I did.  Apparently David Gerrold attempted to correct them and was shouted down as being "wrong".

[MahrinSkel]

What is being left out of this narrative is that the Hugo awards were already being gamed, by a block of fans and authors that felt the Hugo awards should be based on certain values or properties of the authors, rather than the quality or popularity of the work. Don't believe me? This was the winning Short Story a couple of years back.

IOW, there is no 'false' equivalence, the two sides are in fact equally guilty, and the side that lost is screaming because the other side cheated better on this round. Their suggested solution is to cheat even *harder*, in the short term sign up 'progressives' that know little or nothing about SciFi to vote for "No Award" (at $40 a pop), in the long term to put some sort of committee in charge of 'vetting' the nominations, so that the wrong things don't get nominated just because more people voted for them.

That being said, some of the players on the currently winning side are real assholes, especially Vox Day. Like broken clocks, assholes are sometimes right by accident.

--Dave

[Khaldun]

Congratulations on shitting this up thoroughly. As the io9 thread points out, the Hugos are fan-voted awards and so have always been subject both to "politics" broadly speaking and to varying degrees of covert/overt manipulation by individual authors and their fans. Gaming a voting award has also become both easier to do in general in the Internet age and has become one of the favorite targets of troll communities who just enjoy fucking around with something.

That said, this year's slate is qualitatively different than anything that's come before it in the intensity of the gaming, the intention of the gaming, and in the fucked-upness in quality terms of the outcome. "But-but-but there is one short story in the past that was picked for political reasons, that's exactly the same" is precisely the dumb tendentious move intended to distract from the degree to which this year is different and effectively make excuses for what's happening without having to do the really icky thing of appearing to like Vox Day or whatever. It amounts to the same thing.

As seems to be the thing here now, if anything remotely having to do with the politics of geek culture comes up outside of Politics, there are folks who are determined to make sure it gets sent to Politics pretty damn quick. Which is the larger structure of this whole swirling shitshow across the Internet: a guarantee that anything that can be dragged into that kind of discursive space will be dragged into it. So there's the news, folks: want to talk about books here? Make sure there's nothing controversial about the book or the way the book is being discussed, or make sure that every corner of geekdom feels more or less the same about the controversy.

[MahrinSkel]

I know, the nerve of some people. Here you were, having a totally on-topic and not political at all conversation about how awful the boogieman of the month in geek culture was, and somebody had to come and shit it up by pointing out a few pesky facts that don't fit the narrative. It's totally their fault that the conversation turned political and hostile, if they had just let you get a few more points in for the Five Minute Hate, you could have gotten back to talking about books already. So it's really important to establish that when the discussion dies a horrible flaming death of insults and fingerpointing, it was all their fault.

Now, just a couple more points about how awful the boogieman of the month is, and how they are totally not just doing the same thing that was already happening, but doing it better and for the wrong side. Then I will pretend to wash my hands of the entire conversation, until I am reluctantly dragged back in by their refusal to stop being terrible people that don't agree with everything I say.

IOW; I see what you did there.

--Dave

[Morat20]

Offhand, I believe the Hugo nominees are selected by..anyone who went to WorldCon (or bought a pass) and bothered to fill in a ballot.

Response rates were never high, but a lot more people voted for the final results than did for nominations.

Gaming in the past has been entirely "Nominate my book!" by authors. At least, that's what's been actually seen

The various puppies claim some shadowy cabal, but don't have any evidence beyond not liking previous nominees...and are certainly the first to openly collude to pick a slate and shape the entire field, rather than pimping your own book.

Given that I've seen years were I disliked everything on the nominee list, and yet did not invent a shadowy conspiracy AND their own explanation of their motives indicates a..sophomoric..understanding of the genre, I'm pretty okay laughing at their claims of fighting back against some enemy.

Seriously, I can't think of any time in the last forty years..in fact ever...where sci-fi, much less the Hugos, worked the way they think.

Sci-fi has always used spaceships, as it were, to explore concepts, ideas, ideologies, and controversies -- going back to the golden age. Same with fantasy.

It's the forgettable pulp that didn't. Dune, Star Trek, Tolkien...if you read or watched that and didn't see ideology or controversy or exploration of issues and concepts, you...really missed the entire reason those things are remembered.

[MahrinSkel]

Now I will present a simplified explanation of how the system in question works, as an introduction for explaining why my opponents are really just crazy people that totally made up their complaints.

Of course, they made it up because they needed an excuse to be terrible crazy people, as I will explain with this strawman, narrative-advancing version of their complaint. As you can see, this straw man is very flammable, so I will put a match to it and distract you with the flames. See, the straw man burns, so obviously this can not be their real motivation.

Now I will tell you that the real reason they are doing this is because they are actually doodoo head poopie pants, who don't understand what is actually good about the stuff they like for different reasons than the smart people like me, because their reasons are stupid and mine, like yours, are much more refined. So don't be a doodoo head poopie pants, show how smart you are by agreeing with me about everything.

--Dave

[Abagadro]

Jesus Christ. Sorry I even mentioned it.

[Johny Cee]

Scalzi on the topic (he's one of their main targets):

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2015/04/07/human-shields-cabals-and-poster-boys/

The Matt Foster quote from that link:

"Eugie and I were acquainted with, or friends with most of the people the Puppies point out as leftist leaders. We were both directors at Dragon Con, just about the biggest genre convention around, and know the organizers of many other conventions. Eugie was a Nebula winner, female, and Asian American. Trust me Puppies, if there was an organized society or just a clique working against you, we’d have been in it."


The whining about Lefty cabals is paranoid.  The quote pretty much lays out the non-fruit bat problem with the Hugos:  it's a giant in-group, wihich exchange the same ideas and tastes, that then get broadcast out through certain player's substantial internet presence.  Outside of that in-group you can get left out in the cold.  

And yes, the Hugos are in general famously bad.  Pratchett has zero nominations (he declined his sole nomination later in his career, which is good because it let...)  Banks has one since Pratchett declined that year.  Certain authors get nominated no matter how slight the work (for Scalzi, who I do enjoy, did Zoe's Tale and Redshirts deserve a nom?)  Bujold gets nominated for everything except the romance stuff (I also really like Bujold, but those last two Vorkosigan books got nominated how exactly?)

Certain sub-genres are represented exceedingly poorly.  Paranormal Romance/Contemporary Fantasy/Urban Fantasy barely ever.  Fantasy in general usually got the short end of the stick over mediocre SF (http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2009/03/2009-hugo-award-nominations.html as an example...  Wert is fairly well known blogger).

[Tmon]

Added nothing really.

[HaemishM]

WHAT... THE... FUCK?

[Ard]

Please for the love of everything stop shitting up the book thread.

edit:  and on topic, I finally finished two thousand page behemoths, dance of dragons, where I agree with what everyone is saying in the game of thrones show thread with it being terrible, and the Words of Radiance, which just makes me wish Sanderson would stay on track with one series at a time already dammit.

oops:  words of radiance, not way of kings

[Rendakor]

This thread went full retard.

[Rasix]

If I get really bored at work, I'll de-shitify it.  For fuck sake's guys, learn to control your goddamn impulses.  Don't be a twat outside of politics. 

Nearly done with my re-read of the Dark Tower series.  It's better than I remember, but at the same time King's self indulgence gets to me more.  I really wish he didn't insert himself into the story.  I know the multi-verse concept hinges on his multi-verse, but they could have kept him out of it with little effort.  It feels like a massive amount of back patting where it just isn't necessary. 

[Teleku]

Hey, I wasn't aware there was any controversy, so that's good.  Not like its worth it's own thread.   

[Morat20]

If I get really bored at work, I'll de-shitify it.  For fuck sake's guys, learn to control your goddamn impulses.  Don't be a twat outside of politics. 

Nearly done with my re-read of the Dark Tower series.  It's better than I remember, but at the same time King's self indulgence gets to me more.  I really wish he didn't insert himself into the story.  I know the multi-verse concept hinges on his multi-verse, but they could have kept him out of it with little effort.  It feels like a massive amount of back patting where it just isn't necessary. 

Speaking of King,  would you say his tone shifted markedly after the first book? More a stylistic thing, has he'd clearly has more books under his belt and more development as an author between the gunslinger and the drawing of the three.

Friend of mine was asking if she should stick with it after the first book, and her objections were mostly on style. It's been so long since I read then that I can't remember if it's a big change or not

[Rasix]

Depending on the version date, I think he went back and touched up The Gunslinger.  It wasn't a real jarring transition for me, but then again, I remembered where it was going.  Drawing of the Three was a much, much better than I remember it being. 

[Khaldun]

For me, Dark Tower became kind of unbearable with the insertion into the story. Every once in a while I find that move kind of fun, amusing or even interesting but it seemed in this case really jarring and unpleasant. A bit like when late Heinlein started trying to knit together everything he'd ever written, only worse. I really enjoyed the earlier books in the series, though.

[Ard]

I would tell her to at least read the second book.  The third one was where he started losing me, and where I kinda felt like the story started going off a cliff.  This is subjective though, and I'm one of the ones that hated the last book so my opinion is tainted by that.

[HaemishM]

I think the first Dark Tower book was so different in tone because it was written as short stories, not as a cohesive novel. Even going back and editing it couldn't change that. I stopped reading the series after the 3rd book - you know the one that just fucking ended without any sort of resolution, like the second half of the book had just fallen out of the binding.

[Rasix]

Wizard and Glass (book 4) is haunting.  It's a book that bothers me for days after finishing it.  It didn't have to end in the way that it did, but it does and it bugs you.  It as if King enjoys torturing Roland through some inconsistent character flaws and nonsensical coincidental encounters.

5-7 are enjoyable but ultimately forgettable and it's where King starts heavily inserting himself in the series.  Also, Mordred was a complete waste.  As was the resolution with Flagg.  It's King's inability to gracefully end a story dragged out over 3 books.  Wolves was a lot better than I remember it being and parts of Song of Susannah are great, but it's just parts after that.  Anything in "Keystone Earth" feels like a waste of time.

[Johny Cee]

The Wind through the Keyhole is really good, by the way.  That's the book he just wrote that is inserted some time between Books 4 and 5...  basically they have to hole up and wait out a storm, so Roland tells them a story from when he first became a Gunslinger, when he told a fairy tale to a kid he met while doing that job.

[Khaldun]

I think it's not just King's own presence that weighs a bit heavily--it's that when you start making someone like Flagg (or any of the characters) have to carry the weight of metaversal storytelling with all that crazy-quilt of background, and especially when they weren't designed that way in their earliest appearances, it just ends up creating muddy, abstract characters.

[Morat20]

I think it's not just King's own presence that weighs a bit heavily--it's that when you start making someone like Flagg (or any of the characters) have to carry the weight of metaversal storytelling with all that crazy-quilt of background, and especially when they weren't designed that way in their earliest appearances, it just ends up creating muddy, abstract characters.

There was a...rushed...feeling at the end. Which is what you get when you take a 14 year break in the middle of a huge ass series. And then finally get off your ass to get it done, and you and your fans want it finished...well, sometime 10 years or so back.

So the stuff with Modred and Flagg and all...it just seemed dismissed. There's a time and a place in stories to off a major villain with contemptuous ease, but the next Big Bad wasn't set up right for that. At least if I'm remembering the story right.

There was some solid stuff in even the last books, really worth slogging through the entire series to get to. I just think, in the end, you're left thinking "Damn, if he'd actually planned this more from the start and hadn't set it aside for a decade or two so he had time to work it through right, this would be considerably better."

I guess I came out of it glad I'd finished it, glad the story was finished, but sort of feeling that what I got was the bare bones -- despite how hefty the whole series was.

[NowhereMan]

edit:  and on topic, I finally finished two thousand page behemoths, dance of dragons, where I agree with what everyone is saying in the game of thrones show thread with it being terrible, and the Words of Radiance, which just makes me wish Sanderson would stay on track with one series at a time already dammit.

oops:  words of radiance, not way of kings

On the one hand I agree with you but on the other hand that would mean not getting more Mistborn novels and that is unacceptable. The man's a bit of a writing machine and it's tempting me to read more of his series because I quite enjoy his magic system building schtick. It makes most RPGs look pretty bare bones in terms of magic mechanics.

I'm taking a vacation next week and my tablet battery just died (more precisely is stuck on trickle charge or something so won't actually add extra charge) so it looks like I'm going to try tackling Tom Holland's Rubicon. More Roman history epics! I'm tempted to try and get a copy of ADB's Night Lord's trilogy WH40K stuff. I read the first one and it was really good and some well written sci-fi might make a nice contrast. It's either that or try drinking myself to death on a Thai beach...

[Khaldun]

I was surprised at how much I liked Sanderson's Words of Radiance after having not liked the first one that much. But the pacing in both is kind of odd--it feels like nothing is happening, nothing is happening, nothing is happening and then happens happens happens. Especially Words of Radiance.

[NowhereMan]

That's called the Sanderson avalanche. Actually the Way of Kings books suffers less from it than his earlier novels, especially Warbreaker (his first real novel) which at the 3/4 mark feels like being 1/3 into a massive book or the start of a series and then suddenly explodes. The first Mistborn novel is similar but he has enough happening throughout that it doesn't feel like nothing is happening, just that the plot is moving a lot slower than you'd expect. The ending of the first Mistborn is a crazy ride, I'd thorougly recommend it if you enjoy his stuff.

[Paelos]

Wizard and Glass (book 4) is haunting.  It's a book that bothers me for days after finishing it.  It didn't have to end in the way that it did, but it does and it bugs you.  It as if King enjoys torturing Roland through some inconsistent character flaws and nonsensical coincidental encounters.

5-7 are enjoyable but ultimately forgettable and it's where King starts heavily inserting himself in the series.  Also, Mordred was a complete waste.  As was the resolution with Flagg.  It's King's inability to gracefully end a story dragged out over 3 books.  Wolves was a lot better than I remember it being and parts of Song of Susannah are great, but it's just parts after that.  Anything in "Keystone Earth" feels like a waste of time.

Wizard and Glass is my favorite book of the series. By far. It's one of the few times where I writer penned a love story that I thought actually held together in a way that didn't seem trite or sappy for someone supposedly of that age. It hit the emotional threads perfectly with the characters. And the tragedy fits the epic theme as well.

As for the last 3 books, I thought Wolves of Calla was weird but fine. Song of Susannah was awful. I hated that book the most out of any of them, mostly because I really dislike Susannah/Detta as a character. The way her dialogue was written drove me absolutely batshit.

[Quinton]

Count me in as somebody who thought the ending was completely appropriate.  I did find much of the back half of the series frustrating though.

[Cyrrex]

Yep, ending was perfect.  People raged about it because they are stupid, and thought it should all be Happily Ever After, despite all the evidence that Roland had still failed to learn his lessons.  Any other ending would have been wrong, IMO.

Also, Wizard and Glass was not only my favorite book in the series, but possibly my favorite book period.

[Ard]

Yeah, the ending was not my problem with the last book.  I pretty much saw that coming.  It was pretty much everything else in the last book that pissed me off.

[Quinton]

The epilogue left a glimmer of hope that maybe, maaaaybe the next time around things could go differently, which was really about as happy-ending as anyone reasonable could ask for.

[Morat20]

Yeah, the ending was not my problem with the last book.  I pretty much saw that coming.  It was pretty much everything else in the last book that pissed me off.

Normally a book is great then the ending kills it. King managed to tack on an ending that truly was great -- and the leadup to it was...not so great. (The people pissed about the 'true ending' are, well, wrong. That literally was the only way it could end. It's to King's credit that he knew it and wrote it, rather than copped out.)

[Cyrrex]

And you know what?  If King decided to write "Dark Tower: The Next Attempt" going through the whole story again and altering Roland's choices subtly as things went on...well, okay, a lot of people would hate that.  I would not be one of them.

[Wasted]

At least they could have nominated a Caitlin Kiernen novel, who is a great writer, and also ticks off the transgender and queer boxes.  Or held their noses and stooped to nominated one of the many female Contemporary Fantasy/Paranormal Romance/Urban Fantasy authors.  But the Hugos don't like that sub-genre.

I've been looking for new writers and tried Threshold after reading this, really glad I did.  I'm loving her writing and she creates great atmosphere and setting, with an eye for the mundane as well that really makes her characters feel real.  I wish her characters wouldn't be quite so argumentative or so willfully mysterious sometimes but overall some really good books so far.  I would have overlooked them with her horrible covers and characters with names like Chance and Narcissa they look like the worst YA supernatural crap.

[HaemishM]

I finished The Color of Magic a few weeks ago, and I'm glad I didn't take some of the advice in this thread about skipping around in the Discworld series. I had only read Good Omens by Pratchett before and loved it. The Color of Magic was really good and not entirely as silly as I thought it was going to be. I definitely am going to read more of the series but I'll do what I usually do with series - read them in order.