Return of the Book Thread

[Johny Cee]

I don't really know where to post this, but I am looking for recommendations for super hero fiction with a more realistic spin, hopefully written with more quality than the stuff floating around tumbler.

Well, they might be kind of dated now, but maybe see if you can find the Aces Wild series that was edited by GRRM.  Stories by multiple authors about people gaining powers after an event (it's been a while, I should reread myself) and it's not always "good" powers either. 

It's "Wild Cards".  There are a large number of them, but the general consensus is the first few are better.

Invasion by Mercedes Lackey. It's essentially fan fiction for her guild in some superhero MMO, but because she's an established author, they published it. Her communist superheroes are awesome.

"Fan fiction" is constantly used wrong, and usually to indicate a negative opinion.  So she played an MMO, and her experience playing gave her ideas for a novel?  Cool.  That isn't fucking fan fiction.  I mean, you know how often novels start as something completely different?  The Hobbit was originally bedtime stories for Tolkien's kids.  The Dark Tower was because King liked the idea of mashing Eastwood Spaghetti Westerns and the depth of Tolkien, etc.

You actually have to, unpaid and unauthorized, borrow someone else's world, story, and characters, and usually it's implied that there is either a self-insert (the famous original Mary Sue Star Trek story) or you re-write the story to come out how it "should have" with Harry and Hermione riding off into the sunset.  Borrowing characters/story/world to critique an author's work also doesn't count.....  Gaiman's "The Trouble with Susan" or Grossman's Magicians both critique Narnia, or Scalzi's Redshirts plays around with the expectations of televised Space Opera ala Star Trek.


Sorry, but calling something "fan fiction" just tees me off.  It's used as a general, dismissive pejorative.  A few years ago, "YA" was thrown around alot in the same dismissive manner to describe genre books that weren't gritty enough.

[dd0029]

"Fan fiction" is constantly used wrong, and usually to indicate a negative opinion.  So she played an MMO, and her experience playing gave her ideas for a novel?  Cool.  That isn't fucking fan fiction.  I mean, you know how often novels start as something completely different?  The Hobbit was originally bedtime stories for Tolkien's kids.  The Dark Tower was because King liked the idea of mashing Eastwood Spaghetti Westerns and the depth of Tolkien, etc.

You actually have to, unpaid and unauthorized, borrow someone else's world, story, and characters, and usually it's implied that there is either a self-insert (the famous original Mary Sue Star Trek story) or you re-write the story to come out how it "should have" with Harry and Hermione riding off into the sunset.  Borrowing characters/story/world to critique an author's work also doesn't count.....  Gaiman's "The Trouble with Susan" or Grossman's Magicians both critique Narnia, or Scalzi's Redshirts plays around with the expectations of televised Space Opera ala Star Trek.


Sorry, but calling something "fan fiction" just tees me off.  It's used as a general, dismissive pejorative.  A few years ago, "YA" was thrown around alot in the same dismissive manner to describe genre books that weren't gritty enough.

Whoa there Sparky, calm down. First, this started as straight up fan fiction as per this interview. They subsequently gave it the 50 Shades treatment to strip out the fan fiction trappings, but that's what it started as. I frankly just think it's a mildly amusing factoid and it was the only notable thing beyond the author and the Communist superheroes I remembered about it.

[Viin]

I have need of a new set of books to read and I'd like something with an interesting "universe". Does anyone know of a good series that is multiple books in the same universe? (The Culture books are the best example of this I can think of, though I'm not specifically looking for Sci-Fi).

[lamaros]

Read Max Gladstone?

[Khaldun]

I'd second that. Gladstone has done some really interesting world-building.

[Viin]

Haven't read him, I'll check it out, thanks!

[dd0029]

That's a tough question. Are you looking for series with the shared world/universe being the connecting factor? Not many people are doing that anymore. Gladstone is about the only one I can think of at the moment who's currently writing.

Maybe Kage Baker's Company series? There's eight of those and while they nominally follow a couple of characters, about half of them have a different "main" protagonist/POV character.

Everything Mike Resnic writes is connected, but the quality ranges from adequate to pretty terrible.

If you haven't read them, Bujold's Vokosogian series might qualify. While most follow the main story and have Miles as the main character, about a quarter of them are completely or at least semi one offs.

For some old school 80s fantasy, there's Lawerence Watt-Evans' Ethshar series. These are all 80s pulp, but he is still writing them occasionally.

[Khaldun]

I like the Kage Baker books.

Garth Nix's Abhorsen books are all sort of interconnected but they do have different protagonists.

[NowhereMan]

Long build up but if you read most of Brian Sanderson's serieses: Mistborn, Way of Kings, Elantris or Warbreaker (and some others I think) they are actually set in the same universe (called the Cosmere). This is pretty hard to spot without knowing it though but he's planning on having more convergence in parts of the novels so in 10-15 years it should be coming together 

China Mielville's Bas-Lag stories do the same thing, although definitely on the postmodernist wordy side of Fantasy but they change characters from book to book and the setting is really, really interesting.

[MahrinSkel]

A lot of authors go through a pastiche stage, wear they write in the style (or even using the setting and characters) of authors they like. Some of them even incorporate it into their later work deliberately (see Charles Stross and the Laundry, each story is essentially a "tribute" to an author Stross likes, this is usually directly referenced in the story with lantern-hanging references to the original author's work). For that matter, a lot of the 70's "Hard SF" was little more than fan-fiction of scientists.

I'd say the biggest problem with fanfic culture is that there's very little useful criticism, so the writers often don't evolve their technique and style.

Dave (for my sins, I did write some Heinlein pastiche in my teens.  Fortunately, this was pre-internet and all copies have been lost)

[NowhereMan]

Speaking of fanfic I've just picked up Jim Butcher's Codex Alera, the first two books at least. The first novel was written on a bet and is a fanfic. Guess what the basis is.


It was an argument about whether there was such a thing as a bad idea or if it's always down to a bad writer.

[Ironwood]

And is it good ?  Because I could see that being good.

[NowhereMan]

Give me a couple of days and I'll let you know.

[Ironwood]

Sorry, I misread ;  thought you were on book two.   

[dd0029]

And is it good ?  Because I could see that being good.

It's Jim Butcher, so it's wildly uneven. There are some really neat ideas explored other neat ideas floated and then completely discarded. He did wisely offload his creepy tendencies from the main character to secondary characters for this series. I don't know much about the spoiler beyond the idea, but it does err more heavily on the Rome side of things. Outside of his exploring a mix of his creepy with Roman creepy, I liked this series a fair bit.

[Viin]

Thanks for the suggestions, will poke at those author's books and see what falls out.

Just finished the latest Peter Grant book, which was very good. Highly recommended if you like urban fantasy. It's similar in vein to Butcher's Dresden books but they haven't spun out of control yet. I think they are better written too, especially this last one. (For what it's worth, I do like the Codex Alera books too).

While waiting for some recommendations here, I picked up Red Rising, a book about a revolution on Mars after it's been terraformed. Pretty good so far, pretty well written, but with some unsurprising turn of events so far. (homegrown boy minding his business, tragedy strikes, wants revenge against the overlords who caused it)

[NowhereMan]

And is it good ?  Because I could see that being good.

Well now half way through book 2, it's not bad, definitely pulp fantasy. The basic premise is we've got a fantasy analogue-Rome surrounded by Barbarians in a world where pagan Roman animist ideas of spirits residing in all things is true and certain people are able to control these spirits to varying degrees. As in nearly all magic systems there's a blend of power and skill to doing so, some of these spirits seem to have their own identities hence the Pokemon theme.

I'll just say that I really like the Dresden books, I don't think they've (if that's what Viin meant) spun out of control so much as he's deliberately writing the series up to an apocalyptic event. I really think the writing quality of those books has increased quite a bit and I'm hoping the early Codex books are written somewhat early because the plotting isn't up to what I'd expect of Butcher.  It's actually a bit of a pity (though I think might still win Butcher's argument) as he's adapted the basic idea really well, it's the plotting where things fall through (for me at least). Which is a real pity because I think that's Butcher's strong point in the Dresden series since his writing sometimes come off as a bit... immature I guess. There were two 'plot twists' in the first book that you could see coming from miles away, both were reveals about a character that you could see pretty much as soon as they were introduced, in one case you can see one of the big moments in the final battle coming pretty much from the 2nd or 3rd chapter.

The creepiness is, I'm guessing, referring largely to the whole 'Rargh, I am strong and good man. Must defend weak woman from bad men. Mi'lady I know you desperately want to sleep with me after I saved your life but 'twood be unfair of me to take advantage of your fragile state. Oh you want to jump me anyway well then let's fuck! Chivalry!' It's definitely a character trope he seems to like to use on his male heroes. In his defence I think it's something he's very much aware of, it's not simply that he's naively using that world view. It's also something that only comes across from that character's view point. Dresden has it and it's something other characters comment about. It's also something that's been decreasing as the series has moved on and Harry Dresden has matured and gained life experience. In Alera it's explicitly part of their society and not something anyone else shares and most of them happily talk about it being ridiculous. Still he does use it for his good guy characters and to make matters worse he isn't great at writing female characters most of the time. So I'd put him down as an author who is trying to use and possibly subvert some of those tropes but might not have the skill to pull it off without some favourable reading.

Not quite on the level of someone like Bakker who tries to subvert misogynist ideas by hammering them into your face when you read his books with horribly described rape as an effective interrogation technique scenes or every female character being a whore or a victim. Butcher definitely tries a much gentler approach but I can definitely see it still rubbing people the wrong way or being read otherwise.

[Morat20]

I think the third book (Cursor's Fury) is where he more or less sorts it out. It also corresponds, I think, to the same point in time where his Dresden Files writing improved.

The "I'm man, must protect women" thing gets inverted several times throughout the series, I believe.

[Ceryse]

I enjoyed his Alera books, but felt books 1 & 2 were definitely the weakest, and the second half of book six was just bad. On the whole enjoyable and would recommend them to anyone who enjoys pulp fantasy.

[HaemishM]

Based on you guys repeated recommendations, I've started reading the Culture books with Consider Phlebas. I like it so far (in the middle of the escape from Vavatch section now) but the section with the Eaters... really fucked up. It also kind of came out of nowhere and seemed extremely awkwardly placed like he had that scene he wanted to write and then just shoehorned it in here. Maybe it makes more sense later but it was really jarring.

[Morat20]

Based on you guys repeated recommendations, I've started reading the Culture books with Consider Phlebas. I like it so far (in the middle of the escape from Vavatch section now)

I believe I read Banks once said he'd happily allow, even knowing it would suck, Consider Phlebas to be made a movie entirely for a scene right around where you are, involving the Clear Air Turbulence.

One specific scene of it, in fact. (I won't elaborate, since you're in the middle of it).

[Quinton]

Consider Phlebas is a bit uneven and a lot of people don't enjoy it as much as later Culture books, but I think it's a solid introduction to the series from the eyes of someone who absolutely loathes the Culture.  Also, the Idiran-Culture War is an event that has ripple effects that are visible through many of the later books.  And, as Morat alludes to, it has some fantastic Space Operatic bits that are entirely too much fun.

It would have helped if the Culture had used some sort of emblem or logo; but, pointlessly unhelpful and unrealistic to the last, the Culture refused to put its trust in symbols.  It maintained that it was what it was and had no need for such outward representation.  The Culture was every single human and machine in it, not one thing.  Just as it could not imprison itself within laws, impoverish itself with money or misguide itself with leaders, so it would not misrepresent itself with signs.

[HaemishM]

Based on you guys repeated recommendations, I've started reading the Culture books with Consider Phlebas. I like it so far (in the middle of the escape from Vavatch section now)

I believe I read Banks once said he'd happily allow, even knowing it would suck, Consider Phlebas to be made a movie entirely for a scene right around where you are, involving the Clear Air Turbulence.

One specific scene of it, in fact. (I won't elaborate, since you're in the middle of it).

Yes, the escape from the GSV would be a fantastic cinematic experience.

[murdoc]

I just finished The Incorruptibles and really liked it. A mix of fantasy and western with a dash of ancient Rome thrown in for good measure. I have no idea where I came across it, but it was sitting on my Kindle and I needed something to read on a flight - went through it pretty quickly and loved it. Really like the world building.

Just started The Martian and even though I have no idea how realistic the science is in it - the main character is really entertaining and I'm immediately rooting for him. I had been putting it off because I haven't been in a sci-fi mood but can't seem to put it down now that I have started.

[Viin]

The Martian is a pretty good book, I enjoyed it.

Just about done with Golden Son, the 2nd in the trilogy with Red Rising as the first book. Pretty well written space opera, good world building. I can't put it down - what happens next? Oh no he didn't! Are you serious?! Awesome! - Highly recommended if you like action packed sci-fi with pretty good character and world building.

Premise is that a Society was created with castes by color: Reds are the manual labor, yellows are the doctors, pinks are the pleasurerers, obsidians are the elite hired muscle, greys are the police/military, and Golds are the masters of them all. A Red is turned into a Gold in order to start a revolution against the social order, and so you follow him on his escapades of rising through the Gold ranks and getting close to the leaders, etc. (And becoming friends/lovers with Golds and finding himself treating lower colors as beneath him, moral delimmas, yadda yadda).

[NowhereMan]

Ok thanks to a few days in hospital I've read the whole of the Codex Alera series. It's good fun, the Pokemon side of things is definitely understated and there's certainly no deep attempt to do something original with the genre but it's a fun fantasy romp. The writing definitely improves from the first book and the pacing of the series is solid even if the overall events aren't particularly surprising. It's a solid series and worth a read if you're looking for some lightweight fantasy.

[Mattemeo]

Soooo.... A Crown for Cold Silver

Getting a lot of interest at the moment, though the author seems to be causing a lot of confusion - is he/she an established author jumping wholesale into genre fiction with a pen name or is this actually a debut?
Out in April. I'm waiting on a few more solid reviews but from what I've read of the teaser above, it could be pretty decent indeed. The comparisons are already heady.

[Bunk]

Nice current Humble Book Bundle up right now. https://www.humblebundle.com/books

I am a big Dan Simmons fan, so I would have grabbed this for him alone.

[Morat20]

Nice current Humble Book Bundle up right now. https://www.humblebundle.com/books

I am a big Dan Simmons fan, so I would have grabbed this for him alone.

I like the first book Dan Simmons writes of anything. Unfortunately, he then goes on to finish the story and he generally loses me. It's pretty much "This is great" followed immediately by "Now you explained it and somehow murdered the magic".

Hyperion was great. The Shrike, the pilgrimage, the stories and universe.....and then it went "Oh, and these all people are connected and this is what the Shrike is and blah-blah-blah Space Jesus and Keats".

It's not like Stephenson, whose endings just tend to suck. He just builds this great story and world and then....he starts pulling back the curtain, but not in the good way. I get we're supposed to start unraveling the mystery and understanding motivations and seeing how everything comes together. But, I dunno, he just somehow does it slightly wrong. It's always a let-down. I just feel like every duology he writes, the second book is about three notches lower in skill and plot.

[Khaldun]

I love everything Simmons did with his Hyperion books. Even the stuff that other people bitch about.

The rest of his stuff is pretty dire, though, imho. The Mars books start interesting and just go holy fuck that is bad by the end. His Song of Kali book is just like "hai dumb racist stuff HORROR SCARY i guess". Then recently he's gone total "Thanks Obama" and joined the Orson Scott Card "liberals are scary" club. It's really not even his ideology per se--it's that highly ideological SF/horror is almost intrinsically dumb because it truncates the ability to imagine human beings in complex ways, doing complex things.

[Chimpy]

I too am a fan of pretty much all of the Hyperion/Endymion stuff.

Out of his other books, I have only read Illium and Olympos and I can agree that they start out good but things start to go off the rails pretty quickly.

Oh and Simmons has always been like that politically. But of his books I have read, none of them came across as blatant vehicles for him to spout his political beliefs.

[Khaldun]

Yeah, he's just gone there in a big way with very recent writing.

[Morat20]

Yeah, he's just gone there in a big way with very recent writing.

Has he named a character (quite obviously) after a guy who wrote a bad review of his book, then made that character a loathsome child molester whose only role in the plot was to die horribly?

[bhodi]

I don't really know where to post this, but I am looking for recommendations for super hero fiction with a more realistic spin, hopefully written with more quality than the stuff floating around tumbler.

From last page, but I quite enjoyed Worm. I like the idea of web serials, and I really liked this author. I didn't care for it so much in the beginning, but I was pretty hooked by the end of the first arc.

I know authors have been experimenting with the serial format, it's something that keeps people coming back regularly; in terms of marketing, it's brilliant.

[shiznitz]

I believe I got the recommendation for Wool here. Loved it and am moving on to Hugh Howey's other stuff now.  I, Zombie seems like a great concept.