Return of the Book Thread

[Morat20]

https://parahumans.wordpress.com/2011/06/11/1-1/ If you have like a month free, its a massive read.

That's Worm? I've heard decent things.

[Ironwood]

You can probably scratch 'Proxima' and 'Ultima' off your list as well.  Baxter can be good ;  here, not so much.  What a waste of time.

[dd0029]

I thought Proxima started interestingly enough, until he got to the great twist halfway through and things went to hell in a boring handbasket.

[Ironwood]

Yes, it did and if it had followed that idea, rather than what it did, it would have proved to be a LOT more interesting to me.  I kinda assumed that it would somehow loop around to it again, but Alas, NO.

Avoid.

[Rishathra]

Also, not a fan of ending a story on a cliffhanger.  Fine for the first book, but not the last.

[Khaldun]

Just finished Station Eleven. A good post-apocalypse story--more literary and meditative than some, but not quite as bleak as The Road, etc.

Surprised at how much I liked Naomi Novik's Uprooted, as I felt her Napoleonic dragon fantasy series had really gone downhill steadily--I think the switch to a new setting and characters recharged her.

[dd0029]

Just finished Station Eleven. A good post-apocalypse story--more literary and meditative than some, but not quite as bleak as The Road, etc.

You might enjoy Peter Heller's Dog Stars.

[Ceryse]

https://parahumans.wordpress.com/2011/06/11/1-1/ If you have like a month free, its a massive read.

Just finished reading it. Thoroughly enjoyed it (though it wasn't without issues, especially in the second half). Definitely worth a read.

[Quinton]

Surprised at how much I liked Naomi Novik's Uprooted, as I felt her Napoleonic dragon fantasy series had really gone downhill steadily--I think the switch to a new setting and characters recharged her.

I read Uprooted first, enjoyed it, then started reading the dragon series which started off pretty promising but really fell off quickly after the 2nd or 3rd book.

[Khaldun]

The dragon series had such promise--I honestly thought she was going to do a kind of "The Scottish Enlightenment, only with dragons" but instead it turned into a really dumb tour of the world that became more and more tooth-grindingly "sensitive" in weakly-thought-out ways as time went on. Basically if you're going to be that speculative and out-there in a counterfactual historical fantasy, you have to have a game plan, you can't just blunder into China, Africa, Ottoman, Inca the way she did. She makes things so different because of dragons that the Napoleonic beginnings no longer make any sense to anyone who is even slightly aware of post-1400 world history.

[KallDrexx]

I was flailing around looking for a new book to read and saw an advertisement for the Man in the high castle show.  I thought the premise sounded interesting so I read the book.

I just finished it and I have no idea wtf I just read.  That was the most convoluted thing I have ever read.

[Endie]

I was flailing around looking for a new book to read and saw an advertisement for the Man in the high castle show.  I thought the premise sounded interesting so I read the book.

I just finished it and I have no idea wtf I just read.  That was the most convoluted thing I have ever read.

The Man in the High Castle was seriously the most convoluted thing you have ever read?!?

God bless you, in that case, if you ever try to read 100 Years of Solitude, The Magic Mountain or even just Foucault's Pendulum.

[satael]

I always thought that Man in the High Castle is pretty easy for a book written by PKD.  

edit: compared to something like UBIK or VALIS

[KallDrexx]

Maybe convoluted was the wrong term.  I feel like the book went off into so many irrelevant tangents that were setup to be crucial to the story but ended up extremely flat.  I read Les Miserables, and sure it had lots of irrelevant tangents too but it still had a very coherent story arc.   


It was an unsatisfying read on so many levels.

[Endie]

[snip] No one questions what it means, no one questions if it's saying their existence is a lie, etc....

It was an unsatisfying read on so many levels.

You kinda missed the point there, since Juliana does work out that the inner truth is that the I-Ching (which Abendsen used to write the book) was revealing the fact that this was just a work of fiction, and that Germany actually lost WWII.  That existentialist element is dealt with.

[Khaldun]

I actually don't find One Hundred Years of Solitude convoluted.

Magic Mountain is, though.

[KallDrexx]

[snip] No one questions what it means, no one questions if it's saying their existence is a lie, etc....

It was an unsatisfying read on so many levels.

You kinda missed the point there, since Juliana does work out that the inner truth is that the I-Ching (which Abendsen used to write the book) was revealing the fact that this was just a work of fiction, and that Germany actually lost WWII.  That existentialist element is dealt with.

No I got that, but I think you are missing my point.  She figures that out then leaves the apartment and the book ends without any further explanation.  If you believe that I-Ching is prophetic and true to the world, and it says that what you see outside isn't real, no one in their right mind is going to go "Ahhhh interesting" then walk off into the world your prophecies JUST TOLD YOU WAS A LIE and accept it at face value.  It's just not a believable circumstance and thus loses that point to me.  At that moment you are faced with two truths, the reality outside that the Germans won WWII or your whole belief system telling you that the reality outside that you've grown up with was a lie.  Juliana just goes 'oh that makes sense" and goes on her way when any human being with any resemblance of rational thought (which Juliana does convey up to that moment) would be having massive conversations with themselves about what the fuck it means, what to believe, and what is really true.  She experienced none of that.

And even if we, as the reader, are to take it at face value that the Grasshopper Lies Heavy is the truth, which really could have been a good premise, I am now left wondering wtf because of the non-chalant way the book ended.  I have no idea if the book was actually true (and if so what caused the whole context of the events in the book since it's all untrue according to the book) or if the book isn't true (germany didn't win WWII) and now i'm left unsatisfied with the response.

[Endie]

I actually don't find One Hundred Years of Solitude convoluted.

Magic Mountain is, though.

It might not be convoluted if it wasn't seven generations of characters all called Arcadio or Aureliano, but that did have me leafing back a lot to find out if Petra is having an affair with the Jose Arcadio who was supposed to be the pope but was previously murdered (not impossible for Marquez), or if this is the one who dallied with sizzling gypsies, or if I am confusing Jose Arcadio with Aureliano Jose.  And these are just some of the Arcadios and Aurelianos from a later couple of generations that I can relatively confidently recall.  Although now I think that the murdered one might be from generation five and I am thinking of the one who pointedly did not get massacred in an immense, fruit-based kerfuffle.

Which isn't to say that I didn't enjoy it: I did, immensely (although the fact that I preferred Of Love and Other Demons probably suggests that my taste is dubious at best).  I just wish that Marquez hadn't said "that's enough of the 'magical', let's have some of the 'realism' now" and use the realistic aspect of peasant family life that they are all called after their dads.

[Endie]

...And even if we, as the reader, are to take it at face value that the Grasshopper Lies Heavy is the truth, which really could have been a good premise, I am now left wondering wtf because of the non-chalant way the book ended.  I have no idea if the book was actually true...

It's not S.M.Sterling.  You're not really supposed to come away from it knowing exactly what to think with clear explanations laid out in a nice, safe, clear-cut, genre-fiction denouement.  That ambiguity is part of why many people (well ok, me) think it is so good.  "Well, thank goodness it turned out that it was all imaginary and that sort of thing could never happen in my, safe, real world!"

I mean, if nothing else, it was written in the early 1960s under the influence of amphetamines and using the I-Ching for story development by a man who experimented with hallucinogens and who later believed that coloured beams of light spoke to him and that he was living two distinct lives at once.  If he can't even experience reality in a linear fashion you're unlikely to find him sitting down and planning a novel with a beginning, a middle and an end.

[lamaros]

I found The Man in the High Castle to be one of PKD's weaker books, though it's been a while so I can't remember if it felt convoluted.

Foucault's Pendulum isn't convoluted, it's just unforgiving.

[Abagadro]

So my friend just published a book about a regiment in the Civil War that he has been working on for years. Seems to have been well received within the Civil War history community. You can read a bit about it on Amazon.

I bought an extra copy and had it signed by him if anyone is interested. I'll even pay the shipping to you.  Let me know in this thread or shoot me a PM and its yours.

[Khaldun]

I cannot imagine anyone thinking that Man in the High Castle is too convoluted and yet liking and understanding the rest of Dick's work.

[Hoax]

Guys, I tried to read GRRM again (last time I made it to that big event halfway into book 2 and dropped it) and I just can't do it and I need something else to scratch that itch.

I love the houses and the knights. The political warfare etc. All exactly what I like and don't get enough of.

I don't care for the apocalyptic white walker bs and all the damn prophecies and magic. In fact I could basically skip most of Dany and Jon's nonsense in both the books and shows and my enjoyment would be greater. But I love the seven kingdoms and all of that.

As a general rule I'm sick of end of the world prophecy shit and magic in general.

tl;dr are there any other medieval Dune style book/series that are any good? I'm in the mood for knights but every series I see rec'd is all magic and a stableboy who is secretly the chosen one or the king. Or even worse they are about the most daring thief/assassin/mercenary blahblah.

Basically I want to read a CK2 playthrough with maybe a touch less realism and some extra joy.

GRRM's "grimdark" or whatever you call the fact that he believes that conspiracies are the easiest thing to pull of ever as a way to surprise murder xyz character unfairly at any moment...  I could really do without that. Otherwise I'd actually just enjoy his books and not be posting.

[NowhereMan]

Some suggestions from personal experience:

Scott Bakker's Second Apocalypse Trilogies might be interesting for you, definitely quite a bit of world building. Caveat that he goes in for more 'grimdark' or horrific violence than GRRM and women in particular get nasty treatment (in a dubiously handled attempt to highlight how badly women can get treated by treating them really horribly in his fantasy setting). If you thought the Red wedding was fine it shouldn't bother you, though he does pretty much just use the 3rd Crusade as a model for the narrative arc of one of his trilogies. His take on magic is really interesting and I personally enjoy his ability to explore philosophical and ethical ideas through a story rather than just having characters deliver lectures.
Bigger Caveat: His initial writing pace has totally imploded due to depression. We're only just looking at the final book of his second trilogy getting released after quite a while.

Joe Abercrombie's First Law Trilogy would probably be a good fit for you. It's way more character focused than GRRM and really falls into many of the traditional fantasy tropes. If you haven't read it though you owe it to yourself to read it I think, and I mean the whole trilogy as it's a series that ends very differently to how it begins Vague possible spoiler  He's got a few others out set in the same universe but there isn't deliberate grand world building. A lot of stuff is hinted at or mentioned by characters in normal dialogue, so no exposition and you're left with awareness of a wider world but no great explanations.

Brandon Sanderson probably fails on both the too much magic and the traditional 'secret king' parts but his Mistborn novels I think are great. The original trilogy suffers most from the fact that the first book works so well as a self-contained novel that the second book just doesn't work that well. The original plan for this was a trilogy of trilogies following the same world at different time points, medieval/fantasy > modern day/urban fantasy > Future/Sci-Fi but the short steampunk novel he wrote on a plane journey turned out so popular and he enjoyed writing so much he's currently doing an intermission trilogy between the first and second.
He also has the Way of Kings series but that definitely sounds like it would be too cliched for your tastes. His novella the Emperor's Soul is worth reading as nice, self-contained piece of really good writing (don't go from that to the others though, in terms of writing quality it's head and shoulders above his other works).

[K9]

I just finished the second Mistborn novel last night. They're fine as books go, they're not hard reads so if you just want to blow off steam you can definitely power through them quickly. They're fun and frivolous and chock-full of wall to wall tropes, but you could do a lot worse imho. I'd agree that the first book (The Final Empire) works as a standalone book. I think on reflection I enjoyed the Stormlight books more, but all of Sanderson's stuff has an awful lot of content that's invention purely for the sake of invention. So if you get irritated by books about the Prince of Thraak coming with his legions of Egwor the the land of Nun where they observe a six day week and all the women wear veils because the COnventicle of Throon'Oop decreed that the BLAH BLAH BLAH; then these books definitely aren't for you.

On an entirely different note I'm getting through Atul Gawande's 'Complications'; it's a memoir of sorts about his time as a junior surgeon and it's really well written. Would recommend.

[lamaros]

That spanish (?) author who writes long fantasy rewirites of medieval history might be the go. I can't for the life of me remember his name at the moment.

[Hoax]

Mistborn

I've read the first set of Mistborn novels and enjoyed them but I certainly agree that his whole kick was designing complex world-systems for the sake of them to an extent. Not that a lot of it wasn't clever and cool.

For sure they don't scratch that high intrigue, larger scale conflict, great houses stuff, which I really love about GoT just sadly he's a bit of a fuck and the no one is safe schtick gets old when he uses the same trick (risk-free treachery!) to kill every single character off.

Thx for the ideas though guys, appreciate it.

[Chimpy]

The gets a lot more into the intrigue thing in the Stormlight Archive books. There really isn't a lot of medieval fantasy stuff that has the political intrigue thing that you are looking for.

[Abagadro]

That spanish (?) author who writes long fantasy rewirites of medieval history might be the go. I can't for the life of me remember his name at the moment.

Doesn't exactly meet that criteria, but are you talking about Umberto Eco?

[lamaros]

That spanish (?) author who writes long fantasy rewirites of medieval history might be the go. I can't for the life of me remember his name at the moment.

Doesn't exactly meet that criteria, but are you talking about Umberto Eco?

No no, Umberto is a favourite, but I wouldn't call his works fantasy, even Baudolino. I wish I could remember the guy's name. I think he won some award, maybe a scan of the lists there will help.

Bingo: Guy Gavriel Kay. I think I only read A Song for Arbonne.

Tigana (1990), set in a period inspired by renaissance Italy

A Song for Arbonne (1992), a modification of the Albigensian Crusade in a medieval Provence, winner of the 1993 Prix Aurora Award

The Lions of Al-Rassan (1995), set in an analogue of medieval Spain

The Sarantine Mosaic, inspired by the Byzantium of Justinian I, in two parts: Sailing to Sarantium (1998), Lord of Emperors (2000)

The Last Light of the Sun (2004), evoking the Viking invasions during the reign of Alfred the Great

Under Heaven (April 27, 2010), based on the 8th century Tang Dynasty and the events leading up to the An Shi Rebellion

River of Stars (April 2, 2013), set in the same timeline as Under Heaven, based on the 12th century Song Dynasty and the events around the Jin-Song Wars and the transition from Northern Song to Southern Song

Edit: This was all for Hoax, btw.

are there any other medieval Dune style book/series that are any good? I'm in the mood for knights but every series I see rec'd is all magic and a stableboy who is secretly the chosen one or the king. Or even worse they are about the most daring thief/assassin/mercenary blahblah.

Basically I want to read a CK2 playthrough with maybe a touch less realism and some extra joy

[Endie]

I found The Man in the High Castle to be one of PKD's weaker books, though it's been a while so I can't remember if it felt convoluted.

Foucault's Pendulum isn't convoluted, it's just unforgiving.

If you think Foucault's Pendulum isn't convoluted then you're reading it differently from me!

You can actually link the two: Dick had Abendsen use the I-Ching to make important decisions in writing The Grasshopper Lies Heavy (itself a metatextual reference even before you consider that Dick, in turn, was using the I-Ching in creating the text in which Abendsen does so) while Eco had Casaubon, Diotallevi and Belbo use Abulafia, a computer program, in creating The Plan.  And just as Abendsen's characters end up being confronted with the possibility that they exist within a fictional text, so Eco's characters (particularly Casaubon) begin to believe that the fictional text they have created has in fact have become "real".

[Viin]

For sure they don't scratch that high intrigue, larger scale conflict, great houses stuff, which I really love about GoT just sadly he's a bit of a fuck and the no one is safe schtick gets old when he uses the same trick (risk-free treachery!) to kill every single character off.

If you don't mind switching to sci-fi, the Red Rising series has a lot of that, but also a lot (a LOT) of violence. Not exactly exemplary writing, but certainly good. 3rd book just came out.

Edit to add:

Also just finished the Heir of Novron which finished up the Riyria Revelations series. There is some of the 'stableboy to king' schtick, but its very well done and actually surprised me at the end. Not what I was expecting. There is some magic, but only 2 (or 3?!) wielders of magic in the whole world and they play supporting roles. I went into this series with fairly low expectations (retread of a plot that seems to be everywhere) but I was pleasantly surprised at the execution.

[K9]

Mistborn

I've read the first set of Mistborn novels and enjoyed them but I certainly agree that his whole kick was designing complex world-systems for the sake of them to an extent. Not that a lot of it wasn't clever and cool.

For sure they don't scratch that high intrigue, larger scale conflict, great houses stuff, which I really love about GoT just sadly he's a bit of a fuck and the no one is safe schtick gets old when he uses the same trick (risk-free treachery!) to kill every single character off.

Thx for the ideas though guys, appreciate it.

I had another thought, if you're OK with historical fiction then Conn Iggulden's Emperor series about Julius Caesar might be exactly what you want. Politics, warfare, some decent characters and a sense of adventure; I really enjoyed them. Ive heard his Genghis Khan books are really good too.

[BobtheSomething]

Mistborn

I've read the first set of Mistborn novels and enjoyed them but I certainly agree that his whole kick was designing complex world-systems for the sake of them to an extent. Not that a lot of it wasn't clever and cool.

For sure they don't scratch that high intrigue, larger scale conflict, great houses stuff, which I really love about GoT just sadly he's a bit of a fuck and the no one is safe schtick gets old when he uses the same trick (risk-free treachery!) to kill every single character off.

Thx for the ideas though guys, appreciate it.m

Have you read Initiate Brother?  It is set in fantasy Asia rather than Fantasy Europe, but it has a lot of intrigue and great houses mustering armies, along with a looming Mongol invasion.  The whole series is only two books long, concluding in The Gatherer of Clouds, but quite good. 

[BobtheSomething]

Mistborn

I've read the first set of Mistborn novels and enjoyed them but I certainly agree that his whole kick was designing complex world-systems for the sake of them to an extent. Not that a lot of it wasn't clever and cool.

For sure they don't scratch that high intrigue, larger scale conflict, great houses stuff, which I really love about GoT just sadly he's a bit of a fuck and the no one is safe schtick gets old when he uses the same trick (risk-free treachery!) to kill every single character off.

Thx for the ideas though guys, appreciate it.

I had another thought, if you're OK with historical fiction then Conn Iggulden's Emperor series about Julius Caesar might be exactly what you want. Politics, warfare, some decent characters and a sense of adventure; I really enjoyed them. Ive heard his Genghis Khan books are really good too.

Yes, they are.  Thanks for reminding me about his Emperor series.