Card Games Online

[schild]

So it seems, after some research, the problem with Magic: The Gathering online is the ridiculous costs. Well, that comes par with Magic - I used to play competitively, like nationally ranked (not of great notice, I was young, school was more important). But I was very good. I'm looking for another game to play, and the only one of note seems to be Starchamber. If you're wondering what I'm talking about:

Linkie

I've played through the tutorial (about a month ago, so I'll probably do it again). But I'm wondering if anyone here plays both/either of those games. Single player games just aren't cutting the mustard for me anymore.

[Morfiend]

I used to play competitively

*Snicker*

[Arthur_Parker]

I play MTGO, not bought any cards for ages and probably going to sell my collection pretty soon.  It's something to do that I find relaxing putting together unusual decks etc but the cost is way way over the top.

Will have to check this Starchamber out.

[schild]

Well. After playing 15 games - Wizards of the Coast has completely given up on Magic. Apparently, in the latest block release (expansion) - Mirrodin - Wizards decided to add a new effect called Affinity. Here's how it works.

Artifact creatures can have affinity - and for each artifact they have in play, they cost 1 less colorless to put out. Affinity equipped artifact creatures are generally costly. But due to the overwhelming amount of cheap artifact equipment (shit that give stupid crazy bonus' like +3/+3 and the +1 life for each 1 damage dealt for 2 mana), people generally have 5 or so artifacts out by the third turn. Oh, and there are artifact lands. They count as artifacts too. Here's how a game generally goes.

Turn 1:
Player 1: artifact land (tap), artifact (orb of some type usually)
Player 2: Mountain

Turn 2:
Player 1: artifact land (tap both), 2 more artifacts (count em, this is now 5 artifacts)
Player 2: Mountain (tap both), goblin raider

Turn 3:
Player 1: artifact land, tap ONE, cast Myr Cumguzzler (4/4, trample, affinity, +2/+2 for each artifact equipped), tap another land, equip Loxogons Buttcleaver (+3/+3).  

Now stop. Ok, so this guy, on the third turn, has a creature out that costs ONE mana to cast, 2 to equip (all colorless, mind you) and ends up being 9/9 trample. Tonight, I actually played against someone, who on the 5th turn had a 19/7 creature. omfgkkthxdrvthrubbq.

In the 7 years I played this fucking game, I have NEVER and I mean, NEVER seen a deck dominate like this. And they are fucking consistant! Of the 15 games I played, 5 of them were against Affinity decks (in the newbie room, puhleeze). I beat ONE of them (on the 4th turn, my deck dropped like an anchor in the ocean, was great).

This type of deck has absolutely CRIPPLED Magic: The Gathering Online. hell, it's crippled MtG.

Back in the day, when a card like Black Vise (1 damage for each card above 4 drawn, I believe) got banned or when Regrowth (remove one card from graveyard - bring it into play) got restricted there was an uproar (these were NOT overly powerful cards - comparatively). Wizard of the Coast's reponse now?

These decks will run their course.

/facedesk

Yea, well. While they're running their course (which will take a year), I'll be over here, playing Starchamber.

[Tebonas]

Well, my MtG wisdom is as old as that expansion with Shadow ability (don't even know how this expanion was called anymore), but wouldn't a simple Shatterstorm kill that particular deck, as would a white deck with stratetically played Disenchants and Divine Offerings. Black Cards that bury cratures, Blue Counterspells, etc. All that leaves your super deck with are artifact lands and useless cheap orbs on the board and enchantments without valid targets in your hand.

Each one trick pony in MtG is destined to fall hard once somebody sets his mind (and the resources of his deck) to it.

[schild]

Teb, shatterstorm decks are gone. Disenchants got moved to green. Divine Offerings have been gone for 4 sets or so. Blue has like no counterspells anymore and black just sucks some big ass. Seriously, Affinity is DOMINATING. Oh, and those useless cheap orbs, 1 colorless, tap: do 5 damage to target creature or player. Yea, that's NOT useless.


As for people interested in Starchamber. I'm going to start playing this pretty seriously. Right now it's in Beta for the upcoming expansion. You get 20 packs of the expansion and 20 packs of the original. So at the moment you can learn to play with a lot of cards for spending...oh...$0. So if there was ever a time to play, it's right now.

As for magic, the Mirrodin stuff will be gone in 8 months.

[Tebonas]

Fuck, they really raped Magic. I concede this point to you, didn't know the depths they have gone to.

The interesting thing was the metagame, if its gone - screw them!

[Arthur_Parker]

Just playing casual I have a lot of success against most decks with black/white. Lots of instant kills like chastise, second thoughts, wing shards, mixed with barter in blood and bane of the living. Very few creatures, worth playing against affinity decks for when you slap a purify down and watch most of all their artefacts disappear with most of their lands.

If I survive long enough have a desolation angel to take all lands out anyway.

This is just casual though, the serious decks are cheesy beyond belief. E.g. Skullclamp a +1/-1 artefact card that costs about one to equip and when the creature hits a graveyard they draw 2 cards. Some cards I just won't use way too overpowered like that scepture, had someone use that against me with a "take another turn and lose the game at the end of the turn", in combination with a plat angel with the "you cannot lose the game ability".   So lets see he taps his scepture, takes another turn etc etc etc

The possibilities for combinations are very large but a lot of them are so so broken. It's funny though when you do beat someone who is using a real broken deck, they sometimes flip out as they are not used to losing.

Some players get real upset when you conceed to them, I just say a simple "gg" and quit if it's a fast game and I'm outclassed with the deck I'm using (if it's a close or long game I stay and let them get the kill shot, only polite).  Some people take real exception to this and expect you to stay in till they get the kill, even if it's a real boring game.  

One guy was using mists of stagnation on me along with remove from gravyard cards, he didn't appear to have any creatures and was shuffling his cards back into his library.  So ok I'm going to run out of cards in about 30 turns and nothing I can do about it, so I say "gg" and quit.  He then follows to me to other games calling me a retard, I mean wtf?  You won congrats, have a cookie.

[Arcadian Del Sol]

I made it to the first elimination round on the first professional tour. I got beat by landmines and a kid with a laywer for a divorced father who handed his son fatherly love in cardboard boxes full of magic cards.

I had hoped that the online version would 'balance the haves vs have-nots' but its still the same old deal.


I downloaded the client and I understand that when you register you get starter decks. I think I'm at the point in my life where I'm content with that, so if anyone wants to play me and get an easy win, look me up. you know the name.

[Luke]

I'm looking for another game to play, and the only one of note seems to be Starchamber.

There are a couple of other online CCGs:

The Lord of the Rings Online TCG (Disclaimer: While I'm not with the company any more, I was during the development and launch of this title)

Chron X

There's also Battle Trolls and CCG Workshop has several ports of paper games, but they're more of a hobby outfit.

None are as expensive as MTGO, though most follow the buy-cards-and-play-for-free model, and at least a couple are arguably more balanced these days, though that's always a moveable feast.


Luke

[SirBruce]

I've read a couple of reviews of Starchamber that were very positive.

I actually beta-tested Chron X and was an early player when it first came out, but I quite after the first expansion because I didn't like the direction they were taking the game.  I think CCGs should be designed so that with a given set of cards, there's one or more "optimal" decks that have a better than average chance of beating all other decks.  Then the fun and strategy comes in with determining what that combination is going to be.

Instead, the first expansion basically created a rock-scissors-paper situation where certain decks simply had no chance to defeat other kinds of decks, which in turn had no chance against a third kind... it all hinged on what deck the other guy chose to put up against yours.

Still, it was a fun game, and I don't know how strategies may have evolved over the past several years.

Bruce

[Xilren's Twin]

The cost as well as not being able to devote enought time to keep up with the new expansions is the reason I only play MTGO in leagues with a card pool I know.

My last few I went strictly 8th edition basic set, which has enough variety to be fun, keeps the deck building part of sealed and doesn't have to deal with mr suitcase types that standard does and you know you can play for 4 weeks and maybe win some packs.  It's the only cost effective way to play.

I like MTGO, I really do, but the cost is just outrageous.  Drafting, which was by far the most fun during the beta test, is way way way too expensive to do for real.  Had they done something intelligent like provide $1 drafts where you dont keep the cards at the end, I'd be all over it.  Full price per pack?  Um, hell no.

Xilren

[HaemishM]

Fuck MTGO, Fuck Magic, and Fuck Wizards of the Coast, in any order you wish. IN THEIR STUPID ASSES.

I played MtG in early days, right after Arabian Nights came out, all the way until that shitty expansion Fallen Ages or some shit. I loved the game, until it started to become nothing but a tournament game. The group of friends that I played with didn't play standard 2-player Magic. We played huge multiplayer games, which is where the fun was at. I mean we'd end up having 100-150 card decks, just these massive things and it was a blast. Then the fucking tournaments got started and it all went to hell.

Tournaments are all about the smallest decks possible, the fastest decks possible. It's all draw, tap, burn decks and nothing in between. Anything that isn't efficient is tossed out. Anything that delays that draw, tap, burn cycle is thrown out. To me, all the good strategy got thrown out with it. We "trained" hard for a local tourney, where the 4 of us friends who entered finished the top 4 spots in the area, then we ran a tourney of our own a few months later. After that it just got stupid, and I got out, selling most of my collection for a decent price. I've dabbled a few times with a deck or two, just buying a starter and two boosters and playing with friends, but it was so much worse of a game by then (Ice Age). I couldn't imagine trying to play, especially competitive now, with all those goddamn cards.

MtG Online needs to burn simply for putting such a retarded pricing scheme and EULA on the game.

[AOFanboi]

Playing MtGO is fun if you stick with casual and the special rules like Tribal Wars (only one type of creature in the deck) or Prismatic (at least 250 cards, using all colors) - at least until that Equipment-introducing expansion came out).

The problem is that the game has grown so impossibly huge in terms of cards and card sets. They feel they have to introduce a new mechanic with every set (which led to weird things like flanking), which totally shifts the balance. Ever since Inquest came out, for instance, it has had "killer combos" in it, sets of two or three Magfic cards that combine to do something WoTC probably didn't intend. As anyone who have met the sharp end of a well-built Squirrel deck can attest to.

Speaking of other online card games, I tried Chron X and a couple of the other games from the same company, but I don't think they are capable of balancing their games, e.g. Star Trek ConQuest (the collectible online miniatures game).

Star Chamber looks far better, but what I'd really like to see was an online version of Galactic Empires, one of the first post-MtG trading card games published. Crappy art, unreadable text - but a good game nevertheless.

Either that or On the Edge. That would also rock.

[schild]

I've been playing Star Chamber for the last couple hours. This game is very good. I'm not going to make a paying account until the beta is over, but woo wee, fun fun fun.

[WayAbvPar]

I took the plunge into online Magic a year or so ago. I quickly discovered that unless you have a comprehensive knowledge of all the cards (and how to best use them synergistically), it isn't really worth playing. I still have about $100 worth of online cards to play with- I wouldn't mind some n00b v n00b action if anyone plays.

RKDN- I will look ya up if I decide to play. Your starter decks probably aren't much worse than my feeble attempts at deckbuilding.

[Hanzii]

Haemish expresses my feelings on the matter very well... possibly with a few more FUCK THEM IN THEIR ASSES, than I would have used.

I stuck with MtG a bit longer (and partly financed a trip to Australia when I sold my cards), but ultimately quit the game for the same reason. casual play was almost impossible to come by. My last years of involvement was just organizing tournaments for otheres and being paid for it.
I quit MtGO beta when they announced the pricing, but seeing how many here hates the pricing but still play, it looks like their decision was right from a business point of view - allthough I believe a well thought through monthly pricin scheme completely removed from the offline price, would have attracted more players and ultimately greater revenue. But WoTC fear cannibalisng the real MtG.

I can see why Xilren's Twin plays and sometimes feel like joining for a bit of sealed deck... but they shouldn't be awarded for their godawful pricing.

[Margalis]

My thoughts on Magic. I played a lot in 94-95, around the time of Legends/Revised, The Dark and Fallen Empires. I play rarely but ocasionally now, but I do follow it.

Affinity in Mirrodin is messed up, but they very recently banned a card that made those decks good. (Skullclamp)

IMO, Magic in the "limited" format and casual is far far better than what they call "constructed."

The thing about Magic is, the main skill is making a deck, not playing one. And once you make one, everyone can copy it INSTANTLY WITH ZERO SKILL. They even print out the exact decks all the winners use in tournaments.

This leads to a ton of copycatting, where there are maybe 3 deck builds that make up 90% of tournament decks. It gets stale fast. Creating a deck takes a lot of skill, but copying one and tweaking it takes very little.

In limited, you have to draft cards - you can never have the same deck in consecutive tourneys. You have to make the best of what you have, pick cards that go well together, etc.
---

The other problem with Magic is the need to sell cards. All the basic cards are used up. So they have to recycle cards, add strange new mechanics, create off the wall things, etc. They keep rotating sets and the rules for tournaments force you to play with new cards.

--

And interesting question is, how do they keep making money without collapsing under their own weight?

[schild]

Alright, so today is the 2nd Anniversary of Magic Online. There are tournaments all day and they don't require a ticket to get into. So I'm going to play in a 8th Edition Sealed Deck tourney. 5 8th Edition Boosters to enter ($18.75). But I excelled at this shit back in the day, hopefully I'll do well enough to prize out. Starts in 53 minutes, if anyone wants to join up, or spectate, I'll be playing (name online is Schild).


















Odds are I'll get mana fucked.

[Nebu]

I think that sealed deck tourneys are the best way to preserve the strategic elements in this game. Granted, some of the new card additions described above sound like they are even making it more of a stretch.  

I played in the early 90's as well and gave the game up when it became a financial sink.  The original game concept was a good one, but I think just as in the mmog world, WoC diluted the game to have more mass-market appeal (aka appeal to the lowest common denominator).  Funny how that happens.

EDIT: Don't make too many 13 year olds cry Schild.

[schild]

I think by limiting myself only to sealed deck and games against people I know, I can preserve the fun of this game. Otherwise I'd just be a big pile of hate.


...Anything to avoid playing Affinity decks.

[Jain Zar]

I played in beta.  No way I would play the live game.
Heck, some guy posted on WOTC's forums on how he spent 1500 bucks on the first day!  I like to play casual, and Magic has become a tournament game.  I lose.

[schild]

I won my first tournament round. I rocked the other guy in the first game. Second game he had me down to 3 when he was at 17. I brought out a thorn elemental and a stream of life, bringing myself back to 8. That was the end of that.

I have an amazing sealed deck...deck. 5 packs of 8th edition, my deck is 2 colors, 17 creatures (green/white), and they all cost less then 3 to cast, cept for 1 (thorn elemental). And I got a verdent something or rather, so all my forests count as 2. I've NEVER gotten such a solid deck out of 5 packs.

Thank the stars.

Prizes for tournaments today are doubled, so feasibly, I could win a full box of 8th edition and some moneyz. Kekela. ^_^

[Morfiend]

When I thinkg of Magic: TG all I can see in my head is that overweight 24 year old guy, sitting at a table in the mall, wearing his super dooper bright blue patterned shirt with a huge spiderman on it. Really bad skin, acting like they are really badass because they are the top of the food chain in their group of 13 and 14 year olds.

It makes me shudder to see "Magic Guy" as my friend and I call them. In the dork hierarchy "Magic Guy" ranks about the lowest, a bit under "DnD Guy" who is lower than "Computer Guy".

Now Im not shittalking ALL people who play Magic: TG, but I cant get over my mential picture of "Magic Guy" camping out in the mall every time I drop by EB Games to pick some thing up.

[schild]

I'm a guy playing MtGOnline wearing a VNV Nation shirt, a cigarette in each hand, and playing gamecube inbetween rounds. Does that sound right?


oh...wait, I'm in a magic tournament. Fuck.

[schild]

Got my ass handed to me in the second round. Can we say I pulled NO FUCKING PLAINS. Goddamn online shuffling bulsuasdfuioashdfosuihdfa.

[Fabricated]

I've been messing with this program for a while. Not bad for something written in VB (at least I think it is).

http://www.mtgplay.com/

I can't play MtG anymore because 90% of my fucking cards aren't in any of the blocks minus classic (which is dominated by everyone who started playing before me. You know, the fuckers with the stacks of moxes), or are flat out banned.

I mean, the bolt is banned I think. The fucking bolt, my favorite card. Wah!

[schild]

Holy sweet dropkicking. I just played against a guy who had 8 fliers out (from a sealed deck no less). I lost. Bad.

Somehow, in 5 packs he got:
Western Paladin
Serra Angel
and 2 of the new dual lands

That was ugly.

EDIT: In the 4th round I absolutely beat the shit out of the guy. Very badly made deck.

[Aslan]

I play MTG, I used to play during the revised - ice age period, then picked it back up with the Mirrodin expansion.  I tend to like affinity, because they did give pretty good counters to it.  For example, Oxidze, one green mana and that artifact is destroyed, and unable to be regened.  Not too bad.  I don't play competitively, frankly because I suck turgid monkey balls, but I do have fun.  As to Magic online, I have a hard enough time justifying spending 60 bucks for a box of cardboard, but I draw the line at spending the same for VIRTUAL cards.  But that's just me, most likely.

[Sky]

I got out of Magic during the Ice Age.

They simply started to add too many new rules, and, of course, you need to buy new cards that have these rules so you didn't get abused by the newer cards. By that point I had enough cards to make several good decks, so I called it quits.

I still occasionally play with the folks I played with back then who all came to the decision at the same time: WotC are more interested in making money than making games.

We still use the 'Fallen Empire' era rules, no banned classics like Black Lotus or anything. Surprisingly, nobody is ever a dominant player, since we all have about the same ability and card selections, the game is in many ways more fun that way, nobody pulling out an Ace of Clovers in a game of poker kinda thing...

[Margalis]

How do you make money in their position?

It's easy to say they are money grubbers, but they ARE a company. How would you keep up a revenue stream?

[AOFanboi]

How would you keep up a revenue stream?

Obviously by making the game so unbalanced (as others have pointed out) that preconstructed tournaments are boring and predictable. This leads to tournaments with variants of "sealed deck" games, where the players buy new cards instead of using the ones they already own.

There is no doubt M:tG remains a license to print money for them. Too bad they let die the far more interesting games like Netrunner, Jyhad (now Vampire: the Eternal Struggle published by White Wolf) and the Battletech CCG.

[Alluvian]

I don't get the hatred for MTG at all.  I understand it far more for the online game.  I think virtual cards should be at LEAST half the price of regular cards or there should be a 1 for 1 trade in option with only paying shipping and handling.  None of this full set only tradein.

Hating the game because of how the tournaments went toward 100% efficiency does not make an ounce of sense to me.  If you were having fun with huge 150 card decks in a group then stick with that.  In college I almost exclusively played single colored decks because we would get together for rainbow games at least 3 times a week.  I loved that.

We had our EQ guild get together a few months back (we don't play EQ anymore but are still good friends and keep the yearly get together going) and we felt like playing magic but didn't have any cards.  So we took a trip to the local card shop and each bought some cards (most grabbed two premade decks of complimentary color and mixed and matched).  We had a great time playing over the next few days.  The premade decks were pretty functional and fun, I was surprised.  They used to suck.

Another thing we used to have a lot of fun with was taking a huge pile of mana, and mixing our extra's piles together (extras were usually any cards we had more than 4-6 of and didn't keep in folders) into one huge towering pile in the middle of the table.  Everyone would draw from the same pile.  It was fun to use all those cards that were usually not good enough to make it into a deck.

I don't collect the cards anymore, but I will go through and look at the new cards to see what they are like from time to time.  When I see a deck form in my head I will sometimes write it down and order the cards online individually.  It comes out much cheaper for me than trusting luck of the draw.  I usually make themes I find fun more than trying to make a killer deck.  I have made enough killer decks in my life.  And my wife refuses to play against any of them so they are no longer any fun.  I will now make things like the all dwarven land destruction deck.  Nothing but dwarves and walls and misc land destruction.  Far from killer, but it is fun.

[HaemishM]

The hatred for tournaments comes from burnout. If you decide you want to play an MTG tourney and have fun, you cannot go in without that killer mentality. You will get absolutely RAPED by the munchkins drawn to Magic like moths to flame. And getting raped isn't fun for the victim. So you have to turn on the killer instinct, and turning that off proved to be not only hard, but changed our games completely. In the end, the endless plethora of expansions that constantly recycled cards killed any hope of trying to stay in the Magic game.

[Xilren's Twin]

The hatred for tournaments comes from burnout. If you decide you want to play an MTG tourney and have fun, you cannot go in without that killer mentality. You will get absolutely RAPED by the munchkins drawn to Magic like moths to flame. And getting raped isn't fun for the victim. So you have to turn on the killer instinct, and turning that off proved to be not only hard, but changed our games completely. In the end, the endless plethora of expansions that constantly recycled cards killed any hope of trying to stay in the Magic game.

Well, yes and no.  No doubt, the establishment of the "pro tour" and big cash prizes for winners brings out the ultra-competitive hidden asshole in many players, but, I had a lot of fun in the smaller side events most qualifiers and big tourneys usually have.  Like 8 person booster drafts, or multiplayer games.  Many moons ago I knew people who would go to PTQ's and state championships purely for the side events.

One side note, when I saw schild's posts on MTO I logged in Friday night just to see what was up.  Saw Schild and Arc online and learned something I had never really pursued: Trading can be decent.

Sure the room & message board part sucks and the interface limits you to 32 cards a shot, but it may be the most cost effiecent way to get cards yet.  The going rates seem to be around 32 commons for 1 event ticket ($1), or 14 uncommons, or 1 rare.  So for a little less than the price of 1 pack, you could get ~47 cards that you pick.  Hell I think I saw someone offering 96 commons for 1 ticket but he didn't responde when i messaged him.

Considering how many expansions out of current I am, I may see what I can throw together for 6 bucks or so.

Schild also mentioned something about starting a Bat Country clan... :)

Xilren
PS This is known in addictive terms as "having a relapse"
Xilren