f13.net forums - EQ1 Progression server launches June 28

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 18, 2025, 09:50:24 PM

we're back, baby

It's not about a bar, it's about *something*.

Seriously. If you're not a raider, and not interested in PUGs to raid 5 and 10-man groups but don't mind doing them with mates when they're on, what does WoW leave you left with to do?

Faction/Rep grinding. Grinding to farm cash.

Shitty Battlegrounds. Or Queues, anyway. Which is just another form of rep grinding.

Where's the advancement outside of running the same instances to death, or raiding? It's not about making the bar go across, it's about "can I actually improve my character without raiding?"

There's nothing there for the often-solo casual who doesn't enjoy rep grinding. I just looked up what you need to do to get one of those weapons from Sithilis. Grind about 30,000 rep points. Who's idea of casual-friendly or fun was that? Fuck that, let me do missions to get points to buy new gear LDoN style. Let me gain something worthwhile from all these fucking mobs I have to kill to get my shitty rep up.

What's wrong with just being done with the game if you don't want to partake in any of those other activities?

AA improvements never, EVER helped more than gear. In the long run, as ElGallo pointed out, they hurt the game far more than help it because of the long grind to get to 'acceptable' status even after the cap. They are a broken form of advancement for folks who just won't move on since they're done with the game, and cock blocks for those who join and want to catch-up. They are a lousy system.

LDoN points are the same thing as rep farming except they don't take place in some soulless, modular shitfest LDoN dungeon. I have no problem with either of them, since they result in gear, and therefore aren't cumulative or required for basic gameplay functions like AAs are. If the rep gains take too long, shorten them. Add more reps to all the good instances and high level mobs. Every time you kill one, your rep bar moves closer to filling out the next rep level which means a new shiney.

AA are the epitome of the worst of grinding. You have to work 20-50% as hard as getting a full level yet you only get 1% of the benefit. This is on top of th cumulative problem already mentioned. At least in EQ2 they are best achieved through quest completions which makes them more tolerable since the game is build around questing already and you don;t have to turn off levelling exp to get AA exp.

Quote from: Koyasha on July 13, 2006, 01:29:18 AM

which also reminds me that I still haven't heard anything about how Legacy of Ykesha or Lost Dungeons of Norrath is going to fit into the release scheme. Since they don't raise the bar, it makes little sense that defeating Quarm would be the key to opening either of them.

This shows how they are going to do it:
http://eqprogression.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=13&Itemid=69

To invert the question: What's wrong with being unsatisfied witht he shitty options on offer? I'm done with the game when I can't be arsed with it anymore. FFS if I could stop playing EQ1, I can certainly stop bothering with WoW when I'm "done" with it. And I've done so twice.

And FWIW, I've said that I'd be happy with either the LDoN or the AA option. A lot of you don't like them, and that's fine, but I still find them a lot more worthwhile than the empty rep farming that is all that WoW offers right now. We'll just have to call it a difference of opinion on that one, lads.

Gallo, you can take the cheap shot at LDoN being shitty modular dungeons, and in a lot of ways they were. But by the same token they were also the best fun I ever had in EQ, being able to get a group of friends together and just plow through a few dungeons without camp checks and respawns and the like. If they were beautiful handcrafted locations like many of WoW's instances it would have been that much better, but that's what we had.

And it was different to WoW's rep grinding in a lot of ways. Being able to get a new decent item of gear after just a few missions, a large variety of items, being able to trade your points back in. Augments (aka socketed items). The whole idea was again overhauled in DoN as well, but both versions are far superior to WoW's rep grinds.

Really though, while I'd personally prefer both AAs and a LDoN/DoD ability to earn gear with points/crystals/tokens for misisons and the like, I'd be happy with one or the other. Because the current option of STFU and grind 30,000 points of rep is just pure shit.

Quote from: Azazel on July 13, 2006, 07:17:09 AM

It's not about a bar, it's about *something*.

I don't get that. Why on earth do you want this *something*? MMOG devs seem convinced it's what most people want, when in fact it's what makes people like me leave MMOGs. And there are others like me.

I can't stand grinding through barriers. In EQ I had a bitter struggle with the levelling part, but I loved the raiding so much that I kept up, until AA and level 65 raised the levelling bar beyond my tolerance, so I dropped out of the game. I almost didn't make it to 60 in WoW, but the opportunity to raid again drove me and I've had fun again with it. Your *something* is pure inconvenience to me. All I want is risky spaces to explore and challenges to overcome. I don't want to have to qualify for the opportunity :P

Quote

Seriously. If you're not a raider, and not interested in PUGs to raid 5 and 10-man groups but don't mind doing them with mates when they're on, what does WoW leave you left with to do?

Faction/Rep grinding. Grinding to farm cash.

I'm a raider who goes fishing/mining once a week in Azshara for repair money, then never logs into WoW for anything else except raids. I try to keep my bank at around ~100 gold. I did the instances a few times months ago, and never again. The only rep I ever ground was Timbermaw to neutral to avoid being KOS. All other factions rose accidentally, and none are very high. I only play one character (a 60 druid), no alts.

Quote

Shitty Battlegrounds. Or Queues, anyway. Which is just another form of rep grinding.

I've never set foot in a battleground or queued for one. I once killed three people in Darnassus as my entire PvP experience in retail. I played on the PvP server in beta, but decided to be a carebear in WoW. My last serious game was SWG in 2004, where I was a hardcore city-vs-city PvP raider.

Quote

Where's the advancement outside of running the same instances to death, or raiding? It's not about making the bar go across, it's about "can I actually improve my character without raiding?"

Ah, now I see where you're coming from: a completely different approach to WoW from me. The advancement I'm getting from WoW raiding as a healer is in keeping fellow raiders alive more reliably and efficiently, while keeping myself alive longer to keep them alive longer. I'm always getting better at it (instincts, reflexes, situational knowhow). Loot has helped, but I haven't lived for loot: it has come along because of group effort and the number of times I've turned up to heal.

That's how I felt about EQ also: I was a mid-geared tank and I got better and better at preventing a wipe by jumping in and tagging the right mob at the right time, using the right discipline or weapon at the right time, etc. WoW tanks do that too. That's why I say I only need new spaces and challenges, not levels: I just want to take those skills and put them up against something more difficult. It hasn't bothered me that WoW has stayed at level 60, because they have kept adding enough raid content for my guild to be unable to finish it.

It's also how I felt about SWG: I was the first to reach Master Doctor when my server opened, and I never respecced, never rerolled. I just set about enjoying being a Master Doctor, finding better and better resources to craft stronger buffs, heals and cures, and used them on PvP raids to greater and greater effect until I had a great reputation with allies. But instead of letting me keep building that gap between me and other doctors, SOE introduced the *something* for people like you: an XP grind. And we know how that went.

Fuck you guys. Never invite some fucktard who thinks he is a pvp'er to f13 and have him post only in a EQ1 thread. You know I dont read those. Fuck Combine, if you got pwned by CoS then you suck ass. I spit on the fucking nub you call an epeen bitch.

Yep, that's the problem, "I want Items!" or "I want to improve my character!" For what? You said you're not interested in raiding, PvP, or anything else they're offering as an 'endgame' attraction.. so you'd be done with that character after you hit 60.

The base idea behind raiding isn't rewarding the items, or improving characters. It's the cooperative challenge and overcoming obstacles with a large group. The items just allow you to overcome that challenge and then the next one with greater ease. That's why there's even a progression in the first place, else everyone would just skip the suckhole of MC. Uberitems do jack squat for you besides make lower instances and encounters boring as hell.

LDONs would be a nice addition, I agree. In the end, though, how is it different from just running Strath/ Scholo/ BRS again and again and again? The biggest change with such a system is you get to pick your own loot via reward points instead of "damnit this is the 40th Baron run and I still don't have pants." Yeah it'd be nice if they'd implement such a system for the dungeons, but you'd still have the same complaint later; that you were bored of running the same stuff everyday.

Quote from: Hoax on July 13, 2006, 09:57:24 AM

Living up to your grief title, I see? :-D

Az, I hear you. I think it'd be a good idea to add factions to scholomance, brs, dm, etc with rewards that are more quickly attained than currect faction rewards, and maybe some extremely good rewards that are even more. Or give LDoN-style "reward points" that are functionally identical to faction. And to cut the time, or add intermediate tiers of, current faction rewards. That's all A-OK with me. And, of course, those bastards should be giving me a new DM-quality dungeon every month, but that's another thread.

I just do not want any rewards that give you anything except gear that will eventually be replaced for the reasons I laid out.

Goddammit, I want a grief title.

Quote from: Tale on July 13, 2006, 08:56:14 AM

See, in EQ, I've been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I'm still semi-active in EQ, so if I want to raid I can jump on there with my old online mates, raid to my heart's content, and so on and so forth. However, my real-life mates are playing WoW these days, and honestly, I enjoy WoW from 1-60 more than EQ1 in any of it's forms. I'd like the *something* to be an option to do something achievable in terms of character progression besides soul-destroying rep grinding if I can't be bothered raiding.

Because, to put it bluntly, I enjoy EQ1's raids far more than WoW's ones. Better guild, better people, much, MUCH more variety in content and so on.

Quote from: Merusk on July 13, 2006, 09:57:51 AM

I don't know about that Merusk. I can say with pretty reasonable confidence that I've raided *at least* as long as you have in these games, I wasn't in FoH or whatnot, but I was there for Vox and Naggy, I was there for the 12-hour portal-break Fear runs. All the way through Quarm and beyond. I think I know a little about raiders and raiding. And the fact is that it's partly about overcoming great obstacles and so on, and it's just as much about the lootz. Even in a "family raiding guild" you still want to get to the next step, and to do so you need the brighter shiny. And boy do they want it, too. Like I said, I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt. In WoW, seeing as the game is so casual-friendly I want to do something else besides play through a version of EQ's raid game that's not nearly as good.

Why do *I* want to improve my level 60 toon? For the same reason I started playing these games in the first place. For the same reason I always liked sports games or any games where you could save your spot. Progress, persistance. I enjoy my rogue a lot, I very much enjoyed the game that got me to 60, and I'd like more, please. I don't need it to be levels if I can improve in some other way, be it talents/AAs/LDoN gear. See, I'm not out to "beat" the game. I just want to be able to continue progression of some kind at 60 without it being what you described about my 40th Baron run. I want to be able to work on some meaningful shit solo, and some with a group of mates.

For what? So I can move onto the next 5-man instance, so I can do this one again easier. So I can help out my friend who needs a hand on this quest or that.

So I can jump on, fuck around for 30minutes or an hour and feel I've achieved something on my level 60 to make it a better character.

Quote from: El Gallo on July 13, 2006, 12:08:39 PM

Hey, that would be good enough for me. But not just "you need honored to get this trinket" as it is now. Fuck that. More variety in the earnable-choosable items. LDoN got that right. And yes, I'd love it if they'd add some more 5-man content rather than just topping up the raid instances every time thay add content in a patch. But as you say, that's another thread.

/auc WTB Lamentation. Offering 10pp

So much as things change, they stay exactly the same....

Personally I'm with Azazel. There are some key advantages to AA's that aren't duplicated by faction, points systems, etc. I suppose I have a fundamental difference of opinion with El Gallo, because I like the idea of being able to do something to improve my character forever. Loot provides a bigger bonus, but loot is replaceable while AA's are for good. If I can get a 5% upgrade to my melee mitigation from a piece of loot, or a 0.5% upgrade from an AA, in many ways I prefer the AA. Because if I don't get *that* piece of loot, I'll get another one eventually. But the 0.5% will stay with me forever. But it's not so much the melee mitigation/avoidance/whatever AA's that people like, it's the cool ones. Dance of the Blade, Shield of Notes, Boastful Bellow, Fading Memories - as a bard these stand out to me, and most classes have other 'cool' AA's. And it should be noted that I'm speaking as someone with only 392 AA at the moment.

But AA's other advantages are in the acquisition. If I want DoN crystals, I have to go do DoN stuff. If I want LDoN points, I have to go do LDoN's. On the other hand, if I want AA's, I can kill anything in the entire game that gives me exp, and I will be furthering my goal of gaining AA. So if I want to camp a piece of equipment that drops off something that has a 1 in 2748 chance of spawning and then a 1 in 819 chance of actually dropping my item, at least I can say 'well, I'll be earning AA while camping'. In the points systems, that doesn't happen. Generally points systems are attached to mission completions. Ok, camping is kinda boring, but the point is, AA makes camping have other worthwhile rewards. After sitting there for 32 hours, when I fall asleep because I can't stay up anymore, at least I can be comforted in the knowledge that I've gained several AA points. The same applies to anything else. If I want to go help a friend with whatever, I'm getting AA. If I want to just screw around in some old zone, I'm still getting a little AA unless the stuff is completely green. If I want to go to the most uber exp zone, I'm getting AA. Whatever I do, if I'm killing things that give exp, I'm advancing myself a little.

AA's were introduced as an alternate way to continue advancing your character just like leveling, only without giving the massive power increases levels do. And they work pretty well in that regard. People can continue working on items, raids, quests, whatever, while they also continue to amass more AA. Just like it was for levels during 1-60/65/70. At level 55 you could go to Sebilis or Chardok, and camp for whatever. But you'd also be gaining exp and get 56, 57, etc, increasing your power. Even if you never saw the Froglok Bonecaster's Robe or the Lamentation drop, you'd at least have your exp. But once you got to 60, you were stuck. Your only way to get better was to win the robe or the sword. If you didn't see them drop, or if someone else won them, you wasted every second of the time at the camp. With AA's, you improved yourself, but nowhere near on the scale of improvement as you would if you'd gained a new level. Which is fine. We don't need to constantly gain entire levels, but it does make people happy to at least have done something. Instead of groaning and grudgingly coming to help when your friend wants help with his camp, you can shrug and think 'cool, exp'.

As for catching up with the Joneses.. Well, I have 392 AA right now. Would I like to have 1200+ like some people I know? Sure. Do I need them all? Nah. I'm in a pretty high level raiding guild on my server, and I pull my weight with my 392 AA. Some of the people I raid with have 1200+ AA's. Some have them completely maxed, and can't get any more until the next expansion. Some have less than me. Catching up to a useful point is relatively easy because of the way exp continues to increase in new expansions. The number of AA that would take months to earn if you were in Luclin at level 60 took far less time in Planes of Power at level 65. And what took months to earn in PoP at 65 is a lot easier to get in OoW at 70. You may not catch up numerically to the people with over a thousand AA, but you really don't need to, to be useful. The guy that has exactly the same equipment and 1200 AA will do things a little better than you, but not by so much that you can't both do your jobs. If I went out exping though, I could earn AA at a vastly superior rate than I did in the Luclin Age. What would have taken me a year to get in the Luclin Age may take me a couple months of regular exp groups, if that. So getting the 250-500 AA you need to be relatively good at your job isn't that hard.

In the end, AA allows me to play the rest of the game and get something out of it still. Not just raids, not just the lastest and greatest item-farm.

It's all mudflation. When having all that catasstastic e-peen certification becomes "mandatory" to doing anything worthwhile in the game, that's when i quit the game.

(Also, I played a rogue in EQ....so playing solo/farming/AA grinding was simply not an option)

My EQ character, started in July 1999, had a whole six AA points at the start of PoP (which was when I quit). I got the 60 levels and forced myself to do the runspeed AAs, then raided. I can't imagine having hundreds of AAs or ever doing them. They are XP, so they are a form of near-infinite levelling. That's unacceptable to me.

In EQ2 when you hit level 70, any exp you get from whacking foozles is sent directly to your AA exp. So if you didn't kill all the bosses, do all the quests, you can still hit 50 AA through just grinding monsters.

The same thing you've been doing the entire time.

Have fun, and keep telling yourself it's different, and most importantly, alternate!

(I think one of the As stands for alternate. I don't even know, and frankly in 2006 I don't care anymore.)

Quote from: schild on July 12, 2006, 09:24:40 PM

Quote from: Threash on July 12, 2006, 08:27:20 PM

This is just hilarious to me. Being the first to kill nagafen was what put FoH on the map oh so many years ago, and here they are once again... what is it now, 7? years later doing the same thing again.

Yea, I know, they should really get out of the fucking house.

You really think it's the same people? Somehow I doubt it.

Quote from: Phred on July 15, 2006, 01:48:46 AM

Quote from: schild on July 12, 2006, 09:24:40 PM

Quote from: Threash on July 12, 2006, 08:27:20 PM

Yea, I know, they should really get out of the fucking house.

You really think it's the same people? Somehow I doubt it.

>You are on an internet message board. There are posts here.
#Read Posts
>You read, "Yea, I know, they should really get out of the fucking house."
#Post Reply "You really think it's the same people? Somehow I doubt it."
>OH NOS!!! YOU HAVE FALLEN INTO THE SARCHASM!
>Play again?

Hit screenshot as I ran past this in South Karana ... ultimate contrast in RP vs d00d.

Apparently, plat is selling very well on The Combine.

Everything is selling very well on The Combine. It is just like old time EQ, for better and for worse.

Guk, I'd forgotten what Guk was like on a weekend night.

Besides sneaking in solo for my rogue DE mask, I only ever grouped once in Lguk...

Killed Frenzied once, and won the roll on the FBSS. I was a happy rogue that day.

Schild just needs a warning sign: