At it's base, is UO actually fun?

[Xilren's Twin]

This not intended as a mockery, but a serious question.  I never played the original UO, was slightly before my time and while I do understand the sandbox natue of the game (meaning you make your own fun), reading all these post about how people actually PLAY the game, it just made me wonder.

What was the game like WITHOUT Macros, AFK skill grinding, mult-character help, mules, trapped pouches, 3rd party programs and the like?  Was it ever enjoyable "as designed" or did it take all of the player added external stuff to make it an enjoyable game?

Correct me if Im wrong, but to play UO your first step is macro a character to max skills which would seem to invalidate the bulk of the game systems that were within UO other than pvp.

Makes me wonder if you could use the same sorts of tools in say orignal SWG, if that would make it a more enjoyable game.

I just find it a curious comment on the design.

Xilren

[Chinchilla]

**Long winded post** Read or skip it.

NICE POST!  I love it.  Really got me to thinking about how it was when UO first came out.  I beta tested UO and played it since day one.  There was no macros, UOAssist, Razor, and etc... NONE of it.  I manually mined my ore, chopped my wood, and gathered my leather/wool.  I never got a GM smith like I did here because after I got some cash I became VERY involved in the PvP scene and was making great money off of my victims wares.  So I gave the crafting thing a rest.  I did know quite a few people though that were solely crafters.  They would sit at the blacksmith near the Brit Graveyard and make armor and repair stuff for people.

Hell... a few times I got to kill some people that were reloading their vendors.  Talk about hitting the motherload.  Even better... they would have their house key on them and then I'd go to work cleaning them out.  Back in day there was no "lock down chests/tables" and trash barrels.  It was your house key and that was it.

I do admit that I do macro.  Would I do it all over again manually?  Maybe.  I don't have the time that I did when I was younger.  If I did have that time would I still?  Not sure, because there are so many automated things out there that allow me to do other things while gather/skilling that it seems somewhat pointless to me to do it by hand again after I have already done it once before.  I'm also older and can drive and have more responsibilities so I can't dedicate as much to it.

When I played EQ2 I macro'ed the hell out of their crafting system (yes, there is a macro program for it).  I LOVE their crafting system and I did do it manually for awhile, but gathering the leather and having to make 5 different things to combine it into 1 backpack was tedious as hell.

What I really REALLY enjoy about UO as well is I can log on for 30 minutes and actually get some stuff accomplished.  In other MMOG's so far 30 minutes is only getting you started.  One hour was sometimes only getting you started for the day.

So... would I do this all over again manually if there was no macro's and all that jazz.  Would I even be playing UO if it wasn't for scripts and all that?  I can probably comfortably say YES because so far to date there is no game that has the same PvP scene/feel to it like UO.  I can kill who I want and when I want.  If they find my house they house camp it?  Who gives a rat's butt.  I'll recall out and kick his ass again :).

Shadowbane came DAMN close, but the politics w/ the cities and all that ruined it for me.  If you kill this XY character and he's in ABC guild then that guild is going to BANE YOU!!  They could also call in their buddies and potentially killing your city that took about 2 - 3 months to build.

[stray]

"At it's base", it's not that fun imho. Then again, I'm not sure what you mean by that. If it was a single player game, then it would suck, I think.

If you count the players themselves, then yes, it can be fun. It handles the world/community aspects better than most. It's also more flexible skillwise and activity wise than most games, so that's kind of fun in it's own right.

I can't really be persuaded to join this new server though.

[Dren]

One big difference is the state of the PvE.  Back in the day, the PvE was very good for what was available in the similar game.  So, I spent my time enjoying it and growing my skills at the same time.

Now, the PvE is very subpar for the industry, so you typically do not think, "I'll go kill ratmen for 2 hours to get my skills up."  It isn't fun, so you macro it.  The end goal is to become competent in PvP and that really doesn't mean 7xGM either.  You can start doing it way before that.

The fun part of crafting isn't really the act of crafting, but the selling or trading or resources and goods after that.  You find a little community either amongst crafters or within your guild.  Nobody has fun punching the same 3 buttons over and over 1000's of times, so it is macro'ed.

[shiznitz]

One macroed in UO because one could and because the PKs had max skills/stats so not having max skills/stats made one a deaf, dumb and blind pig to the slaughter. I never chose to macro over playing. I never thought "well, my archery character's hiding is only 45. I better macro that up some more before I play him." I macroed when I wasn't going to be playing anyway.

When I went back to UO after burning out on EQ1 (the first time), Trammel had been introduced and I took over a friend's account that had characters with max stats but only a few maxed skills. PvE in UO was fun even as a 9x70* (instead of 7x100) character. Like any MMOG, it all depended on how you approached the game. One could sit in a safe spot and slaughter orcs with a heavy crossbow at no risk or one could hunt cyclops (hard hitting, lots of hit points) with a small group of friends.

* UO allowed 700 skill points per character with 100 being the max in any single skill. 7x100 is often referred to as 7xGM (GM= Grandmaster) by UO vets.

[Tahz]

My short answer is that UO is the opposite of, say, WoW.  In WoW, the climb up the level ladder is somewhat fun, while the endgame is crap.  In UO, the initial grind is not fun, while the core endgame is fun.  It isn't perfect, but it offers more than any other game ever has.

The question you raise should be separated into two parts.  "Are the core systems of UO fun?" vs. "Is the interface well designed?"  The macroing business isn't necessarily a workaround for the core systems; it's to compensate for the fact that really, UO has one of the shittiest interfaces of all time.  The game itself was great; they only needed other people to come along and make a decent client.  (Or rather, add-ons that made the client usable without tearing your hair out or being so clumsy and slow that you'd get torn up in any real dangerous situation.)

[Rasix]

One macroed in UO because one could and because the PKs had max skills/stats so not having max skills/stats made one a deaf, dumb and blind pig to the slaughter.

Wrong. I wish I had old screenshots of some the stats of the people I ran with.  Only the real anal retentives had high stats/skills, even then they were nothing like what people have now. Most of us killed with stats/skills that by today's standards would be considered "pathetic" or "fodder". I don't even think we knew a 7xGM during the entire time leading up to statloss for PKs.

[Slayerik]

"At it's base", it's not that fun imho. Then again, I'm not sure what you mean by that. If it was a single player game, then it would suck, I think.

If you count the players themselves, then yes, it can be fun. It handles the world/community aspects better than most. It's also more flexible skillwise and activity wise than most games, so that's kind of fun in it's own right.

I can't really be persuaded to join this new server though.

Was Ultima 6 or 7 not fun? To this day, I can still hear the song "Stones" from when the treasure chest would open to UO.

Macroing was done exactly like he said, to stay competitive and skill gain while offline. I took pride in how well I could set up macros to multitask. Either way, meaningful PVP it is. As meaningful as any PVP out there. Though in this game the victor gets the spoils. WTF happened to that concept?

I like the fact I can either log on my crafter and make some cash, log on my tank and PVP, log on my Provoker soon and PvE, log on a thief and seal and stealth, can camp IDOCs on my hider dexer chick or dungeon crawl, do treasure hunts, PK noobs...Or i can just get a macro started and gain even if the wife is on my ass.


Our crew of guys isnt exactly active (or we are at different times). Fun times are ahead though. If you havent already, get in the guild!

[Dren]

One macroed in UO because one could and because the PKs had max skills/stats so not having max skills/stats made one a deaf, dumb and blind pig to the slaughter.

Wrong. I wish I had old screenshots of some the stats of the people I ran with.  Only the real anal retentives had high stats/skills, even then they were nothing like what people have now. Most of us killed with stats/skills that by today's standards would be considered "pathetic" or "fodder". I don't even think we knew a 7xGM during the entire time leading up to statloss for PKs.

People always assumed pk's had max skills, but in truth they just had the advantage of surprise and moxy.  Most of the time I was around 7xGM characters with Glorious Lord titles and such, they'd get owned by a red PK with far lower skills.  PvP in UO is all about guts and experience (REAL experience, not made up numbers.)  You have to fight and die hundreds of times to be considered a succesful PvPer.  All during those deaths you'll be called every imaginable name in the book until you get some respect.

That's another meaningful aspect to the PvP in UO.  Due to the risk of losing your stuff, when you actually know of a player that has that respect, you think twice about taking them on.  For the player with that respect, there is nothing like it in the world.  No amount of cash, items, houses, etc. will make up for it in that players mind.  Not everyone cares about that respect, but to a true PvP'er, it is everything.

[Chinchilla]

All during those deaths you'll be called every imaginable name in the book until you get some respect.

That's another meaningful aspect to the PvP in UO.  Due to the risk of losing your stuff, when you actually know of a player that has that respect, you think twice about taking them on.  For the player with that respect, there is nothing like it in the world.  No amount of cash, items, houses, etc. will make up for it in that players mind.  Not everyone cares about that respect, but to a true PvP'er, it is everything.

Here here!!  Well said!

[Slayerik]

One macroed in UO because one could and because the PKs had max skills/stats so not having max skills/stats made one a deaf, dumb and blind pig to the slaughter.

Wrong. I wish I had old screenshots of some the stats of the people I ran with.  Only the real anal retentives had high stats/skills, even then they were nothing like what people have now. Most of us killed with stats/skills that by today's standards would be considered "pathetic" or "fodder". I don't even think we knew a 7xGM during the entire time leading up to statloss for PKs.

People always assumed pk's had max skills, but in truth they just had the advantage of surprise and moxy.  Most of the time I was around 7xGM characters with Glorious Lord titles and such, they'd get owned by a red PK with far lower skills.  PvP in UO is all about guts and experience (REAL experience, not made up numbers.)  You have to fight and die hundreds of times to be considered a succesful PvPer.  All during those deaths you'll be called every imaginable name in the book until you get some respect.

That's another meaningful aspect to the PvP in UO.  Due to the risk of losing your stuff, when you actually know of a player that has that respect, you think twice about taking them on.  For the player with that respect, there is nothing like it in the world.  No amount of cash, items, houses, etc. will make up for it in that players mind.  Not everyone cares about that respect, but to a true PvP'er, it is everything.

QFSJ

Supreme Justice :) To me, respect is worth more than any huge house or insane amount of gold/items/7x characters. In fact, in old UO I never had a house bigger than a small. I scraped by and PvMed enough to afford to PVP. My usual bank balance was like 30k. One thing I never really did though was make a real good red. I probably will here, but to me the fun of PVP isnt killing fodder, its killing good players and taking their loot. Usually, the good PvPers are reds. This wasnt always the case back in the day, there were some decent Anti's like myself. Though we could never take out the notorious SSJ (any Atlantic old school out there?). They just had too much practice, too good of connections, and speedhacks (sometimes).

Or a good group battle. Especially winning when the odds say you shouldnt.

[Xilren's Twin]

I like the fact I can either log on my crafter and make some cash, log on my tank and PVP, log on my Provoker soon and PvE, log on a thief and seal and stealth, can camp IDOCs on my hider dexer chick or dungeon crawl, do treasure hunts, PK noobs...Or i can just get a macro started and gain even if the wife is on my ass.

But other than the PvP (or Pking noobs too i guess), are all of those other activities too easy when done with a maxed character? Or do they still provide enough of a challenge that you dont feel like you're gold farming in SB again?

It sound like from the posts that with the house loots and such you all have more cash and items than you would ever really need, which makes me wonder why you would do things like steal, pve, craft for cash unless the game systems for those things are fun (which I've never really heard to be the case). 

Did that question make sense?

Xilren

[Soukyan]

I like the fact I can either log on my crafter and make some cash, log on my tank and PVP, log on my Provoker soon and PvE, log on a thief and seal and stealth, can camp IDOCs on my hider dexer chick or dungeon crawl, do treasure hunts, PK noobs...Or i can just get a macro started and gain even if the wife is on my ass.

But other than the PvP (or Pking noobs too i guess), are all of those other activities too easy when done with a maxed character? Or do they still provide enough of a challenge that you dont feel like you're gold farming in SB again?

It sound like from the posts that with the house loots and such you all have more cash and items than you would ever really need, which makes me wonder why you would do things like steal, pve, craft for cash unless the game systems for those things are fun (which I've never really heard to be the case). 

Did that question make sense?

Xilren

It makes sense. I've been doing some macroing and some regular playing to raise skills. Since I haven't had the opportunity to meet up with the others, I am not rolling in the dough and equipment per se. Sure, I could ask Slay or the others to hook me up if I am in need, but that's not the point. I am finding that it can be enjoyable to play and do different activities on an "as intended" basis. Is the game perfect? Of course not. It is enjoyable for me at the moment, though.

[Slayerik]

I really dont have a ton of cash. Items im doing good with, but at the same time the upkeep of being a PVPer is pretty high. I think we're off to an awesome start though. A lot of our magic weapons are about equal to GM weapons, so I dont exactly have an insane arsenal like some. When we go out as a group, I will be supplying power/vanqs to our dexers. So they could go quick if we run into bad trouble.

Stealing/stealthing into house can be very profitable, especialy if you catch someone slipping. And quite a rush as well. The reason PVE can be fun is that its unlike wow, you have to be on your toes or you can lose everything you spent the last 30-60 min gaining. Anyone can turn on you. Sometimes, 2 totally innocent looking blues can decide over party chat ...GANK...and walk away an hour's worth of work richer, and a murder count. Escaping these guys is a rush like no other. Well, next to lighting them up.

Some of these things arent fun. I do enjoy when I hunt down animals, skin them, chop their hides up into leather and I make profit from selling them, as well as skilling up my guy (so he can help keep me supplied with PVP leather armor suits). Whenever I get 2 for 1 pot odds i like it :)

[Cheddar]

This not intended as a mockery, but a serious question.  I never played the original UO, was slightly before my time and while I do understand the sandbox natue of the game (meaning you make your own fun), reading all these post about how people actually PLAY the game, it just made me wonder.

What was the game like WITHOUT Macros, AFK skill grinding, mult-character help, mules, trapped pouches, 3rd party programs and the like?  Was it ever enjoyable "as designed" or did it take all of the player added external stuff to make it an enjoyable game?

Correct me if Im wrong, but to play UO your first step is macro a character to max skills which would seem to invalidate the bulk of the game systems that were within UO other than pvp.

Makes me wonder if you could use the same sorts of tools in say orignal SWG, if that would make it a more enjoyable game.

I just find it a curious comment on the design.

Xilren

Yes.  I barely use Razor since I am still used to the original ways of building macros.  Ironically Slayer reverted to in game shortcuts after losing his on Razor. 

I do admit macroing with razor makes things much easier, but I am savvy enough to work without it.

[WindupAtheist]

I never used macros in the old days of UO.  I just did my thing, killing stuff and gaining skill the "normal" way, avoiding player killers by staying out of the hot spots.  Here in the modern era I've used them a bit, mainly to build slow-gaining skills like necromancy, but after all these years can you blame me for wanting to skip ahead just a little?  My most recent official EA UO character, built around the beginning of this year, gained all his melee skills and healing through PVM.

Part of the reason I've failed to spend my MMO time on the freeshard is that I really can't get excited about AFK macroing my skills to leetness and then pwning random people.  If I somehow went back in time and ended up playing old-school UO again, I'd go right back to dawdling around in my usual anti-powergamer fashion.  And on a "Macro to leetness and pwn random people!" freeshard, what's the point of an anti-powergamer besides being a target?

[Slayerik]

Like you said, I just feel like I paid my dues the old fashioned way. Now I jump forward with macroing and after a week and Im back where I was.

I respect your reasons for not joining us, but I think you will be missing out on some fun.