More farmers banned

[Merusk]

But, Bhodi! Surely the altrusitic devs wouldn't put such bass-ackwards thinking into their games!  They love and cherish us like little children!

You've pointed out exactly why I'm against RMT by companies.  It's a slippery slope coated in teflon and jello, and I can see it quickly spiraling into a shithole in the name of profit.  You can't tell me anyone other than a dev who is also their own publisher would have the ability to resist the pressure or insistance that they do exactly what you've described.

Bob, you seem to be rolling your problems with the raiding game itself into the RMT area.  I'll admit I've only read it quickly but I'll take a closer examination later when I've got more time.  I see them as two separate problems, and I don't disagree that having 40-person raids as the ONLY way to advance a character is bull. I do disagree that RMT doesn't hurt the game as a game.

[Ironwood]

Um, both of you then tacitly agree with Bob's comment that when RMT is used, the game is broken ?

Because that's what it sounds like.

[Dren]

My issue with RMT is that you are setting up a sytem that makes creating a game that makes it even harder to create your own wealth more attractive to the devs.  It would be in the companies best interest to make it more attractive to just buy that sword of whamfoozlement rather than play the game and earn it.  Or they'll just make certain parts of the quest near impossible so you'd rather buy that segment towards the ultimate hammer of gankitude.

The only reason I don't attach myself to this concern too much is that I do believe people just wouldn't play a game like that if taken too close to its extreme.  It just would be too frustrating and transparent, but you just know some company will try it.

[bhodi]

I guess it depends what you mean by broken. Unlike non-RMT games (ignoring for the moment gold buying and it's shady underworld) the game economy is not divorced from the real world. This could be fine; lots of people like playing poker on line for real money, and apparently lots of people like paying for different horses in a single player game.

I personally won't play a game that does it becuase I will not buy virtual items for real money. I think it was retarded in diablo 2, and I still think it's retarded. I have bought gold, once, in FFXI, for expediency's sake, and I didn't feel like it was forced on me or that the game would stop or I couldn't access or get somewhere if I didn't. This I feel is quite different than a game with RMT in mind, parceling out enjoyment based on how much money you put into it. Note that this is also why I don't like gambling.

[Jayce]

Um, both of you then tacitly agree with Bob's comment that when RMT is used, the game is broken ?

Because that's what it sounds like.

That's a potshot, armchair designer response at best IMO.

The fundamentals of the problem are this:
Any game in which you can acquire anything of value (items/abilities/access to content/etc) from another player, and it's a shared world, and there is any significant barrier to getting them (anything more difficult that the Planetside model of "click here"), you will have RMT.  So are you guys taking the position that any such game is broken?

[Venkman]

Inbalance is broken. Therefore, everything is broken.

Come on. There are people who have, people who get, people who don't because they can't and people who don't because they don't feel like expending the effort. That last group is the problem, the whiny vocal minority complaining about their lot in life. Everyone else either can succeed in the system or is mature enough to know the system isn't for them and moves on.

When I talk about the future featuring more micropayments, I'm not incorporating any thinking about whether that appeals to anyone here. It's just what some companies are pursuing. I couldn't care any less about what goes on in DAoC for example, so people don't have to care about games that incorporate micropayments.

And if that means they're no longer in the genre because the genre has become dominated by such games, that's the breaks.

[Merusk]

Um, both of you then tacitly agree with Bob's comment that when RMT is used, the game is broken ?

Because that's what it sounds like.

Yes, and I've never said otherwise.  If people feel they need to pay RL cash to do something in a game, then something's broken.  What I'll disagree with you all day long on is that Raiding sucks.  Some people like it, just like some enjoy DIKU-clones but despise Diablo-clones and vice-versa. Whoda thunk.

[Zane0]

Heh, the problem when people try to buy their way to fun is that it rarely works.  In both WoW PvP and PvE, they will have no idea how to play their character properly and quickly earn the bemusement of the community; probably not much fun.  If they do eventually improve, they will find that the entire procedure probably didn't save them much time to begin with, and that they have no fond memories of any meaningful accomplishments.

Now, if you want to build an MMO from the ground up with RMT in mind, then be my guest, but I think I'll stay away.

The description of a requirement for "tiering" through MC -> BWL -> AQ40 is overblown; I have personally witnessed a ton of exceptions to this rule.  Besides, you develop a necessary skill set inside these instances, and they're not inherently unentertaining.  Depends on the people/guild.

No one will whine about relative changes in material reqs for new tiers if they get easier, stay the same, or even get a bit harder.  Most people are concerned about whether the instance is any fun.  Any half-dedicated player can get most of their tier 3 and resist materials in a few days if they farm for a couple hours.

[Ironwood]

That's a potshot, armchair designer response at best IMO.

Thanks for that.  You obviously don't know my VAST credentials in game design and rollout.

Oh no, hang on.  That's not me.

[Jayce]

That's a potshot, armchair designer response at best IMO.

Thanks for that.  You obviously don't know my VAST credentials in game design and rollout.

Oh no, hang on.  That's not me.

I suppose if I wanted a response (which I do) I should have been less snippy.

I really am curious though: as the underlying problem is that getting items is HARD (some are harder than others) AND you can get them from other players.  Is this the model that you guys think is broken?

I'm leaving aside the fact that maybe you think getting items is too hard in the endgame of WOW in particular.  RMT appears in any game in which getting items is anything but trivial.  Even if you couldn't transfer items between players (remove the economy), you'd still have level-me/equip-me services.

Stripped of item acquisition and leveling, you don't have a game really.  Or, you have a game, but it's essentially an FPS with lots of bots, most of which have poor AI.

[Cheddar]

In addition, when real money gets involved, you get real management wanting to squeese more and more profits from the game without understanding (or caring about) the concequences. What starts as "for $5 your character can swing 10% faster and take 10% more punishment with these new YELLOW text items!" quickly becomes "You'll need to get 1000 reputation with the emo clan to access the next dungeon. You can either spend 10 hours whacking foozles and slitting their wrists at 100 rep per hour, or you can purchase a FASTPASS for $5 which is redeemable for 100 reputation!" which quickly ends up as "You'll need to buy this item that can ONLY be RMTd to do X Y and Z".

History shows this is not true.  EA and Sony both offer RMT services, and it is nothing more than what you can get in the game.  In most cases its less; just enough of a boost to put you close enough to the Parkers in order to keep your fun meter going. 

RMT is tough to discuss though due to peoples preconceived notions.  Its a lot like trying to discuss President Bush; people will not bend from their opinions no matter WHAT the facts are.

[Zane0]

Well you have EQII on one side, I guess, and Project Entropia on the other.

The term "RMT" has hugely different implications depending on its use, and I don't think it's unreasonable to be suspicious about a slippery slope in a discussion about MMO companies, profit, and fun.

[Venkman]

Which is why I separate RMTing from Micropayments, and don't blame RMTing for ills that are truly caused by farming.

It's not RMT-enabled EQ2 servers that the future will be pinned on. The game just never got successful enough for people beyond a niche of their small playerbase to really care. It's also not about just trading items to increase one's ability to get more items from the system. I mean, that's really the irony with RMTing. People are so enamored with continued advancement once the levels stop, they'll pay more to buy stuff that they were trying to get from drops just so they can get better at trying to get drops.

But that's what people do, because they can. And there's nothing wrong with it beyond some vague statements in a seldom-enforced boilerplate EULA.

Nah, the future will be on those games that can manage Micropayment strategies without snubbing the noses of everyone who doesn't pay. It's still based on inbalances, but if what people can buy are more about bragging rights and environment customization, then the game mechanic and balance remain solely based upon what is achievable through game achievement. Win win.

[tkinnun0]

You can thank FoH for the WoW-killer not having WoW's raiding as its endgame character advancement. The bad news is that the WoW-killer is not even in development, because we (the players and the developers) haven't yet learned what WoW can teach us. So thank FoH for the lesson they're about to teach.

[Kail]

Um, both of you then tacitly agree with Bob's comment that when RMT is used, the game is broken ?

Because that's what it sounds like.

Well, depends on what you mean by broken.  It's certainly making more money than I'll ever see.  A lot of people claim to have fun playing it. -shrug-

My argument was more along the lines that Blizzard setting up their own RMT system won't improve this in the long run.  The big, primary color problem here is the obvious one that the end game for many MMORPGs is very tedious.  Having to do the same thing over and over and over again to get the item that has a three percent chance of dropping is usually not fun (even if it was fun the first five or ten times, it gets a bit old after a while).  This is why people are willing to trade real, actual money for the assurance that they can skip parts of it.  Not exactly a profound revelation, I know.

But legitimizing RMT doesn't fix this.  If you want to force people to slog through this tedious stuff to lengthen their subscription (as Blizzard obviously does), then RMT works against that, as it cuts down on the amount of grinding you have to do to get your loot.  If, on the other hand, you don't want to force people to struggle through hours of tedium, then you can easily remove it from the game ("Did I say the mob drops that purple sword three percent of the time?  I meant sixty percent of the time"). 

That's why I'm saying it sounds like a band-aid solution to me.  It doesn't address the underlying problem.  You've still got a very grindy, tedious endgame.  You can pay real money to skip ahead a bit, but you're just skipping ahead to the next step of the same grindy, tedious endgame.  You can keep funelling money to IGE or whoever and make the game a bit less frustrating for a little while (and more power to you if that's what you decide to do), but I wouldn't call that an optimal solution by any stretch. 

And for the publisher, while I don't think that it'll be the end of the world (oceans of fire, dogs and cats living together, and all that) if a company sets up it's own in-house RMT thingy, I would see it as a mistake, as it seems like they're working against their own design (if the game is too repetitive, raise the drop rates or something, don't charge me more money to compensate for your own screw-up).

[Ironwood]

Well, yes.

That's what we're all saying.


We all PASSIONATELY agree.

[AcidCat]

The big, primary color problem here is the obvious one that the end game for many MMORPGs is very tedious.  Having to do the same thing over and over and over again to get the item that has a three percent chance of dropping is usually not fun (even if it was fun the first five or ten times, it gets a bit old after a while).  This is why people are willing to trade real, actual money for the assurance that they can skip parts of it.  Not exactly a profound revelation, I know.

Well, and keep in mind I'm sure there are plenty of gamers like me that aren't buying gold for endgame purposes, but to better enjoy the 1-59 game without worrying about making money/saving money for your mount, etc. Many ways of making money throughout the game are tedious, especially tradeskills. I spent a lot of time on my previous character using two gathering professions, skinning and herbalism, but on my latest character I'm trimming the fat that isn't fun - and while collection tradeskills can make money, it's not fun. I wonder how many hours I wasted skinning stuff and picking flowers just to get some coin in the bank. Instead for a fairly small amount of money I can just not worry about it and focus on the fun stuff in the game.

Once you realize how easy it is to buy gold, it's a temptation that is very difficult to resist. Especially after several playthroughs when you've already played the "grind for coin" aspect of the game to death and just want to focus on the fun parts.

[Merusk]

I've never had to 'grind for coin' on any character after my first. (Took me until 45 to get my first mount.)   Once you hit 55-60, a few instance runs where you win a shard or three is enough to fund a low level character well into their 20s -- Provided you aren't doing something dumb like buying 'top' green armor each level (and forget about blues you don't loot, use the 60 to farm the lower instances if you want greens that bad.)  IF you want to twink them with Runecloth bags, it'll take a few more runs but not too many. Then once you're into your 20s and earning 'decent' coin, you still have all the cash from the previous levels built-up on top of that initall padding.

Of course, I'm also an obsessive.  I pick-up EVERYTHING, even on cash-twinked alts (and running low instances these days I find I'm the only one looting 80% of the time, because everyone else is a twink too, but doesn't care.)  I have mods to tell me which stuff is lower value so if I get full I can dump the low stuff.

  I alo pick-up enchanting and skinning on every character. Skinning is easy, you're at the mob anyway, so you're not running-around to find nodes. It's a few extra seconds and inventory slots, yeah, but tossing it on the AH is a simple 'end of the day' procedure that brings a steady income.  Enchanting hauls down a lot of cash if you don't try skilling it up.  Just DE everything green  that doesn't sell on the AH in one shot, and all your old equipment and 'useless' quest rewards.  Sell this in stacks, rather than 2, or 3 or 4 at a time.  Even on a 'full' server today, there's pleny of people buying low level enchanting mats for twinks to skill-up on.

And all that is before you get into the "Buy Low/ Sell High" Auctionhouse game.  I do that with 2-3 items a week and am consistantly above 200g on all my chars.  I have one friend who used to do it obsessively (she doesn't work) and logged into her Ah alt 4+ times a day to check auctions and find new 'bargins' she never dipped below 1500-2000 gold, not including whatever she had in equity.

So, in essence, I'm saying you don't need to buy cash, just play smart.  Buying the cash after your first run-through on the 1-59 gauntlet is just being lazy.  I could understand someone wanting it for that first run on a server, or their first L40 or L60 mount, again out of laziness or a desire to have 'the shiny' right at 40 or 60, but not beyond that.

[bhodi]

Same. I played 1-60 fairly slow on my first character, picked mining/skinning for cash, and had my mount midway through level 40. I don't actually have another character on the server that's 60, but I did twink numerous alts with 10-20g seed money. As long as you take a gathering skill, you'll be fine. 12 slot bags are 1g each on my server, and 4 of those goes a looooong way to having more fun while leveling.

On my other 60 on a pvp server I took herbalism/alchemy and found that arcanite transmutes net about 10g buying mats off the AH and selling the bars back. Once I discovered that, I ceased having money issues. That, and herb is the way to go on a PvP server because of the crazy amounts of consumables used. Sungrass was 15g a stack.

[AcidCat]

So, in essence, I'm saying you don't need to buy cash, just play smart.  Buying the cash after your first run-through on the 1-59 gauntlet is just being lazy.  I could understand someone wanting it for that first run on a server

Yeah I would agree with this. When I have an alt on a server with a high level character, I usually can fund that alt easily. My latest gold purchase was a nest egg for two new characters on a new server. It's still lazy, I freely admit, but it does trim off the fat for what I want out of the game right now.

[Glazius]

Well, yes.

That's what we're all saying.

We all PASSIONATELY agree.

I don't.  :-D

The very existence of RMT means a game is broken? Uh... no.

In any game where players can help each other out or be "charitable" to each other, in the sense of being able to make unequal trades, this act of help and charity requires a social bond that forms out-of-game.

RMT just replaces any actual social relationship between two people with a cash transaction.

--GF

[Ironwood]

That's fucked.

[Phred]

That's fucked.

I think you'd really hate a game that no one could help another person in in any way. So, unless games eliminate coin transactions, how do you design a game where people can't sell coin and people won't want to buy it, to shortcut effort, or just because they don't make friends easily?

[Ironwood]

I can't really get into in depth replies right now, since f13 is playing up on me.  However, you're turning a game into a charity, or worse, a place where you buy friends.

We're talking about Real Money here.  There shouldn't be a requirement for that in a game.



Edit : Sorry, my grammar is away to fuck.

[Jayce]

RMT just replaces any actual social relationship between two people with a cash transaction.

Sounds like prostitution when you put it that way.

A comparison not entirely without merit.

[Ironwood]

I think you'd really hate a game that no one could help another person in in any way. So, unless games eliminate coin transactions, how do you design a game where people can't sell coin and people won't want to buy it, to shortcut effort, or just because they don't make friends easily?

Sorry, I have to pay Real money to help another person in any way ?  I have to pay money to make friends ?

Paying money to shortcut effort, I can barely understand, but the other two ?  I refer the right honourable gentleman to the 'That's Fucked' answer I gave some moments ago.

[Tale]

RMT just replaces any actual social relationship between two people with a cash transaction.

But that has more impact on the game than just the transaction. To generate in-game currency for RMT sale, large-scale farming operations work 24/7. This puts more coin into the economy than would otherwise be there, and it enters in the hands of RMT. Prices go up in the player economy, because RMT users have more money to pay for things. Your average player who does not use RMT and gets their gold from PvE becomes cut off from the player economy, because they cannot afford those prices. The only way for your average player to re-enter the economy is to find something they can sell to those using RMT, which tends to require significantly more time than they would otherwise spend in the game, so only hardcore traders and RMT users can keep up. That is how RMT damages MMORPGs, particularly WoW.

[Dren]

RMT just replaces any actual social relationship between two people with a cash transaction.

But that has more impact on the game than just the transaction. To generate in-game currency for RMT sale, large-scale farming operations work 24/7. This puts more coin into the economy than would otherwise be there, and it enters in the hands of RMT. Prices go up in the player economy, because RMT users have more money to pay for things. Your average player who does not use RMT and gets their gold from PvE becomes cut off from the player economy, because they cannot afford those prices. The only way for your average player to re-enter the economy is to find something they can sell to those using RMT, which tends to require significantly more time than they would otherwise spend in the game, so only hardcore traders and RMT users can keep up. That is how RMT damages MMORPGs, particularly WoW.

Yes, but the only thing I've seen that is affected by this is crafting materials and a handful of BoE high end items.  The vast amount of BoP items keeps this in check pretty well I think.  I just can't for the life of me get anywhere with high end blacksmithing without spending vast amounts of hours running around looking for mining nodes before a farmer gets to it.  The other sources are in raiding content, which I don't take part in anyway.

The only things I can think of that require gold are the mounts at 100 gp and 1000 gp.  Outside of that is crafting and potions.  To me, crafting is just a side project that really never nets you anything decent, but you feel like you have to do it.  Potion inflation could be a real issue.  Particularly if you PvP a lot and don't want to spend the time hunting flowers.

That's all from my point of view though.  I could be missing something.

[Ironwood]

  I just can't for the life of me get anywhere with high end blacksmithing without spending vast amounts of hours running around looking for mining nodes before a farmer gets to it. 

2 Things :

1 - RMT increases that farming.  Your argument is circular.
2 - The farming itself is the bit of the game that is broken, requiring RMT.

[Ironwood]

The only things I can think of that require gold are the mounts at 100 gp and 1000 gp.  Outside of that is crafting and potions. 

Also, you're not quite correct here.  If I really, really, really cared, I could whip out my credit card and pay for my Thorium Brotherhood rep.  The reputation grinds are also fucked.

[Dren]

  I just can't for the life of me get anywhere with high end blacksmithing without spending vast amounts of hours running around looking for mining nodes before a farmer gets to it. 

2 Things :

1 - RMT increases that farming.  Your argument is circular.
2 - The farming itself is the bit of the game that is broken, requiring RMT.

No argument here.  Mining bites.

[Dren]

The only things I can think of that require gold are the mounts at 100 gp and 1000 gp.  Outside of that is crafting and potions. 

Also, you're not quite correct here.  If I really, really, really cared, I could whip out my credit card and pay for my Thorium Brotherhood rep.  The reputation grinds are also fucked.

Ya got me there.  I forgot about rep.

[Tale]

Yes, but the only thing I've seen that is affected by this is crafting materials and a handful of BoE high end items.

There are a lot more BoE items than "a handful". Even the bracers and belts from MC are all tradeable. And resist gear goes for a fortune. You mentioned potions and potion materials. There's also enchanting materials, which become vital on epics at 60. Your average player buying any of those is competing with cheats who have bought RMT gold that only exists because of the profit motive, and is disadvantaged by the resulting inflation.

[Dren]

Yes, but the only thing I've seen that is affected by this is crafting materials and a handful of BoE high end items.

There are a lot more BoE items than "a handful".

Sorry I forget how big my hands are compared to others.   :-D

Seriously, I meant there are far more BoP items and they typically are always much more desirable than BoE.  There are a few exceptions.  Everytime I'm at the ah looking for something nice, they pale in comparison to the stuff I see on the glowing people.  BoE stuff only is important when leveling up to 60.  Past 60, it all is different shades of grey compared to the rest.

I suppose I could pay some farmer to play my characters and get nice raiding equipment.  I'd like to see a MMOG figure out how to put a stop to that.  I bet somebody could make a good bit of coin doing that for a living.

[tazelbain]

2 Things :

1 - RMT increases that farming.  Your argument is circular.
2 - The farming itself is the bit of the game that is broken, requiring RMT.

It's more like the feed off of each other.