More farmers banned

[Threash]

World of Warcraft Accounts Closed - 6/9/06
In keeping with Blizzard's aggressive stance against cheating in World of Warcraft, we banned over 30,000 accounts in the month of May, and with that removed well over 30 million gold from the economy across all realms. The banned accounts were taking part in activities that violate the game's Terms of Use, including using third-party programs to farm gold and items, which severely impacts the economy of a realm and the overall game enjoyment for all players.

We will continue to aggressively monitor all World of Warcraft realms in order to protect the service and its players from the harmful effects of cheating. Please note that selling World of Warcraft content, such as gold, items, and characters, can result in a permanent ban of the involved accounts from World of Warcraft.

Many account closures come as the direct result of tips reported to our GMs in game or emailed to our Hacks Team by legitimate World of Warcraft players. If you suspect that a World of Warcraft player is using an illegal third-party program to farm gold or items, or is otherwise violating our Terms of Use, please report the suspected infraction via one of the means listed above. All reports will be investigated, and those that prove false will not result in corrective action.

Thank you for your continued support, and good luck with your adventures in Azeroth!

30 million gold... anybody with a guess as to how much that is in US dollars?  30 thousand accounts has to hurt the gold farmers though, thats lots of time and money gone.

[Merusk]

No need to guess, just peruse the various sites to get an average price.  Just going to IGE for my server, gets a price of about $20 for 200 gold.  That makes the loss 3mil USD. Accounts are another 1.5 mil (Boxes are still going for $50, right?).

Net Loss 4.5 mil.  Question is, how badly does it actually hurt them?  No real spike in prices, last time we had this convo they were about the same.

[Kitsune]

Odds are good that the bulk of that money was deleted from the purchasers' accounts, since the farmers only hold it long enough to sell off.  So that $3 million was probably $1 million in unsold stock for the farmers, and $2 million lost by the suckers who actually paid for their gold.

[Threash]

All the gold deleted came of the cheater accounts.  They don't ban gold farmers and they can't ban you for having a lot of gold, they only ban the exploiters.

[Paelos]

I know I've been out in places and seen a few "suspicious" characters in WoW running around not acting at all like humans. I send them a tell usually to see what the deal is, and if I get no reply I just report them to the GM to watch the account. I mean, I probably farm gold like two to four hours a week to keep up with my repair costs, but it's rather annoying when you see the same unguilded rogue in the same place no matter what time you show up.

[Soln]

Its too funny because the night before they did this I reported a farmer and got him booted from his guild. 

He was farming a mid-lvl non-instanced dungeon (Col. Kurzen quest arc in Stranglethorn).  There was four of us and needed the boss (Kurzen) to finish the quest, but we were all 37-39 and he was 48.  He was a hunter laying traps where the boss spawned so he got him every time.  We had to wait near 45mins for him to leave after repeated threats.  Not exaggerating.  He couldn't speak English, just "no/yes".  He wouldn't or couldn't understand he just needed to let us get the mob once and we could move on.  So I reported him and found and spoke to a guy in his guild doing UBRS that night.  Turns out he was an officer and they booted him instantly.  Later that night I got a GM tell from Blizzard thanking me etc.  And a follow up ticket.  Next day, I see the announcement.  So, yeah good timing all round:)  And no, I'm not against RMT's between individual players, just professional farmers.  Because honestly this guy would never have let us finish otherwise.

[angry.bob]

As someone who’s bought at least 14,000 gold across 3 different servers this brings a few interesting things to my mind.

1.   If they had that much gold in inventory, the WoW gold market is huge. Incredibly huge. In all instances I’ve bought gold, I’ve had to wait overnight while they farm it up, and that was on launch servers where they would have established farming characters. The people I’ve bought from keep low inventories specifically to avoid losing “work” in account bannings. They figure it’s better to get orders and then have their shops concentrate on those rather than just have people farm all over the servers and hope someone comes along and buys it. They only do that if there are no active orders. So taking that into account, I’m going to assume the gold that was lost was inventory on “slow” moving, low pop servers. If you factor in the gold they sell, but don’t keep in inventory the numbers are much, much larger.
 
2.   The amounts they mention pretty much prove a theory I’ve had for a while – buying gold in games is the MMO version of porn or weed. It’s something everyone acts shocked and offended about in public, but most of those people will go home and smoke a bowl and jerk off to naughty pictures or a movie. Case in point, the number of people in my ex-guild who used to bitch about my obvious gold buying and then turned around and bought gold to get their epic mount or  skill up a craft was amazing. There is just no fucking way those sort of numbers are supported by a small number of players buying gold.

3.   These account bannings are a minor annoyance. I’ve bought gold during the banning’s before and it only adds another day or two to the time it takes to get the gold while they grind up characters.

4.   Any game that has player transactions is going to have people that buy stuff for real money, and people who will supply them. There is literally nothing that anyone, player or company, can do to stop it. No matter what is done, it will happen. Even banning the accounts of people who buy won’t stop it. It will only decrease the amount of people doing it and cost the company subs.

5.   The only way to remove farming from a game effectively is for the game company itself to offer gold and item transactions for less than what a farming company can supply gold for. Which would be easy to do. Frankly, I don’t think it would screw up economies anymore than they would be otherwise, since gold purchases already exist and effect the game. There might be more of them if offered by the company, but one would assume it would be easier for them to adjust for it’s effects since they’d have rock solid numbers available about the amount of gold entering the economy through RMT.

Personally, I think game companies should sell gold and items in game. I’m surprised that no one has started, at least domestically since the Chinese games have been doing it for a while. If those WoW numbers are to be believed, Blizzard would be making millions of dollars a month just through RMT.

[Threash]

The biggest problem with the gold sellers isnt the farming or selling of gold, its the methods they use to get them.  Back in EQ you had the rampant assholery necessary to get the drops, training, ninjalooting, etc.  In wow its exploiting, if your guild runs zg regularly and people are trying to get DM librams to get their zg enchants you may have noticed that librams of protection cost a ton less than librams of rapidty or focus do.  You may have also noticed that mana and healing potion prices took a dive a couple months ago, same as large brilliant shards and the Ace of warlords and DM class books.  This is because farmers using teleport exploits can easily solo the king in DM north, getting a full chest of tribute loot with tons of potions, lots of aces of warlords and dm class books.


Flooding the economy with this items is not the same as farming gold and epics in tyrs hand like they did in the old days.  I used to think gold farmers where harmless, but after seeing the potion market completely collapse from under real alchemists because exploiters are able to flood the market with thousands of mana/health potions a day, or seeing an ace of warlords selling for 2g when every other ace is up for several hundred gold i can see why everyone wants them gone.  I'd love for blizzard to start selling their own gold at 1/10th of the prize the farmers do just to drive them out of bussiness.

[Ironwood]

Trouble is, that too harms the game.

Now, I agree with Bob that the game is being harmed already - but I don't see the guys making the game coming over to that POV.

[Kail]

Personally, I think game companies should sell gold and items in game. I’m surprised that no one has started, at least domestically since the Chinese games have been doing it for a while. If those WoW numbers are to be believed, Blizzard would be making millions of dollars a month just through RMT.

The problem I have with this (aside from the impact farming has on the market for non-farming players) is that it seems a lot like a band-aid solution to a more fundamental problem.  MMORPGs space out your dings over long periods of time to keep you subscribed.  If you remove all the roadblocks, you'd be able to see the whole game in a few weeks.  It might be less frustrating, but it's also less profitable for Blizzard, because once you've got your uber armor, there's naught to do except stand around in Orgrimaar for a while and be admired by passers-by.  Maybe you can steamroll some PUGs in a battleground or ten, but once you've hit that last "Ding!" the cancellation button is often not far behind.

Paying real money for game money is a way to remove those roadblocks, but it comes with problems.  From the perspective of Blizzard, you've got the problem of players instantly amassing a mountain of loot and then hitting the cancel button when the realize there's nothing they can do with it.  From the player perspective, the problem is more along the lines of "why the hell am I paying money to play a game so that I can pay more money so that I don't have to play the game as much."  Blizzard (and most MMORPG companies that I know of) intentionally slows down your progress at higher levels to stretch out the length of your subscription.  For a regular player who's not buying gold for real dollars, that means that they're paying money (their subscription fees) to waste a lot of time stumbling over roadblocks that other players are bypassing.  MMORPGs are built around the concept of rewards vs. time.  If I see someone else getting more rewards but spending less time, then when I look back at the game, it starts to look unfair.  The whole mechanism underlying the entire game starts to look broken.

So, I don't think legitimizing RMT is an optimal solution from either the perspective of Blizzard or the players who don't buy gold.  It's probably different for the players who are buying gold, but they're already doing it, regardless of Blizzard's position, so what would Blizzard gain by telling them it's okay?

[bhodi]

Blizz tried to partially solve it by limiting what you can get with just gold and by making items bind on pickup. Then you get stuff FoH ridealongs-for-cash currently happening in the other thread. There's really no easy way out.

[Jayce]

here's naught to do except stand around in Orgrimaar for a while and be admired by passers-by. 

/agree 100%.  If RMT becomes legitimized, players who don't spend buy gold/items will feel like their acheivements are hollow (because everyone has what they have in 1/8 the time), and those who do buy it will really quickly become bored.  The suggestion in the above quote is not even really potentially fun, because if everyone has the best armor and highest level, why would anyone admire you?

This is why I disagree in principle even with people being run through low level dungeons by their high level friends.  If you don't want to waste time playing the game, why play the game?

[tazelbain]

Again, this is another area where RMT via tokens is better than RMT.  If you have the player use tokens to buy good and services from other players instead of buying from the company directly, players who try to buy their way to victory end up making things better for the people who don't and basic supply and demand economics prevent it from getting out of hand.  The only thing you have to do is make sure tokens are valuable to everyone but not crippling if don't have them.

[Ironwood]

What ?  How the hell does that sort anything ?

I really don't get what you're saying, I'm not just being a prick.

[tazelbain]

So walking_wallet wants to get an uber_item. But he doesn't have the time or connections to get it himself.

The basic RMT solution is walking_wallet would go buy it directing from company.
The RMT auction solution would be to buy it from other players use an external company site. (SOEbay)
The RMT via tokens solution would be for walking_wallet to buy tokens for real money and then use the tokens to buy the item via the in game economy.

I think the later solution is superior in many, many ways.  But specifically I was responding to Jayce's "If RMT becomes legitimized, players who don't spend buy gold/items will feel like their achievements are hollow" comment.

I think the non-RMT players will be less alienated because:
a) The economic interaction is inside the game and non-RMTers can get a hold of tokens so they can participate without spending money.
b) Since items and gold aren't being created out of thin air, the RMT is less likely to screw with the in-game economy.
c) When walking_wallet does drop a huge amount of money, the non-RMTers are happy because in order to get uber_item walking_wallet has to give the non-RTMers something they want.

As an added bonus: it completely fucks professional farmers over if the token to gold excharge is easy.

[AcidCat]

Ok I read that twice and I must be missing something. How is your theoretical "token" any different than "gold" in WoW for example? Instead of buying gold to make a purchase, you buy a token to make a purchase ....what's the difference?

[Venkman]

Taz, have you explained this so often you're missing some details in this shorthand version? I ask because I can't see how this is any different from what already happens, except that you've added what sounds like a Treasury Bond to the economy.

So players can farm or buy from other players Tokens. How's that different from farming and buying gold? The value of gold fluctuates already based on the items in the system (and the amount of gold). The value of Tokens would fluctuate as well, based on the same principles. Using a Token as an item to barter for ingame money or items is really no different than using gold to buy that item. Both the Token and the gold would be something one could buy with realworld dollars. And if you make Tokens bind on pickup, then only the farmers will get them, use them to purchase items and then just sell the items.

[Ironwood]

Thank God I wasn't the only one who didn't see the point of the idea.

[tazelbain]

Ok I read that twice and I must be missing something. How is your theoretical "token" any different than "gold" in WoW for example? Instead of buying gold to make a purchase, you buy a token to make a purchase ....what's the difference?

It's one step removed.
Instead of a dollar's worth of gold from the company, you buy a dollars worth of tokens. Then you trade your tokens with other players to get the gold you want.  The net effect is the playerbase and in-game economy is setting the value of gold (and by proxy the items) in real world value, not the company. This is also better than RMT auction (which does adjust) because it includes the whole playerbase not just the one on the auction site.

Taz, have you explained this so often you're missing some details in this shorthand version? I ask because I can't see how this is any different from what already happens, except that you've added what sounds like a Treasury Bond to the economy.

So players can farm or buy from other players Tokens. How's that different from farming and buying gold? The value of gold fluctuates already based on the items in the system (and the amount of gold). The value of Tokens would fluctuate as well, based on the same principles. Using a Token as an item to barter for ingame money or items is really no different than using gold to buy that item. Both the Token and the gold would be something one could buy with realworld dollars. And if you make Tokens bind on pickup, then only the farmers will get them, use them to purchase items and then just sell the items.

Can't farm tokens just buy from the company.
If you can't out gold at fixed-rate to the USD because if your fixed price is too low you'll create massive inflation and if your price is too high no one will buy it and you won't make money.  If you let players trade and set the value, they'll find the sweet spot (classic supply and demand). The hard part of this system is the demand for tokens.  Puzzle Pirates creates demand for their Doubloons by requiring that everything beyond the very basic pillaging gear requires Doubloons to make.

(Sorry, lol, this why I'll never have a front page article)

[Cheddar]

(Sorry, lol, this why I'll never have a front page article)

Schild is quite the little editor.  And he LOVES new articles! Its his way of building an empire (and debt).

[Venkman]

Tazelbain, based on your explanation, you're just creating a new denomination. Instead of buying 100gold from the company, players would by 1/*100 Token from the company (with the / or * based on the relative value of the Token to the general state of the economy). How Tokens enter the system does not change how they'll be affected by it. They just become another way of explaining relative worth because, in the end, they're still used to buy a rare or consumable good. 1 Token = 100gold = T1 Robe.

That the player buys the Token from the company doesn't really achieve anything. The player could just buy 100gold from the company.

They could also buy 100gold from IGE et al. It's not like ignorance even applies. No matter of one's experience in the genre, everyone in these games is merely one or two conversations away from knowing how to RMT and with whom.

The only way to "solve" RMT is to remove trade altogether. But that sucks for the genre, so the second best is to have good enough tools built to track the activities of RMTers and ban them instead. In reality though, even removing RMTers doesn't remove the true cause of all of this, which is Farming. But to removing farming would require the same wholesale gutting of the very features that make this genre unique anyway.

People just need to suck it up and deal. All these years into it I still want to know how RMTing truly screws people out of their stuff. I haven't yet read anything that either couldn't be blamed on farming, or was just merely jealousy with a crapload of words wrapped around it.

[Merusk]

Inflation.

Sure, you'll have it when people farm on their own normally, but when professional farmers get added in to the mix, things inflate exponentially.  If the Devs adjust for this, it means normal people HAVE to buy gold to keep-up with the costs.  If the devs keep things at a cost to account for 'normal' farming pace of a few hours a week, then gold becomes meaningless as the catasses and pros amass huge quantities of it.

The other option is to remove an economy, and go the direction normal people seem to want.  Mobs drop what they have on them, and items become meaningless because there's billions of them out there.  Not really RPG-ish, though.

[tazelbain]

Tazelbain, based on your explanation, you're just creating a new denomination. Instead of buying 100gold from the company, players would by 1/*100 Token from the company (with the / or * based on the relative value of the Token to the general state of the economy). How Tokens enter the system does not change how they'll be affected by it. They just become another way of explaining relative worth because, in the end, they're still used to buy a rare or consumable good. 1 Token = 100gold = T1 Robe.

That the player buys the Token from the company doesn't really achieve anything. The player could just buy 100gold from the company.

ya, but real money is based on real economy and game money is based on game economy.  It's better not to hard link them. Let each economy figure itself out and let the players figure out the exchange rate.

They could also buy 100gold from IGE et al. It's not like ignorance even applies. No matter of one's experience in the genre, everyone in these games is merely one or two conversations away from knowing how to RMT and with whom.

Or buy pot.

The only way to "solve" RMT is to remove trade altogether. But that sucks for the genre, so the second best is to have good enough tools built to track the activities of RMTers and ban them instead. In reality though, even removing RMTers doesn't remove the true cause of all of this, which is Farming. But to removing farming would require the same wholesale gutting of the very features that make this genre unique anyway.

RMT isn't a problem in my book.  Professional farming is.  I bet a well-turned company RMT could always undercut third-party RMT and destroy pro-farmers.

People just need to suck it up and deal. All these years into it I still want to know how RMTing truly screws people out of their stuff. I haven't yet read anything that either couldn't be blamed on farming, or was just merely jealousy with a crapload of words wrapped around it.

I have no problem with people who buy themselves uberness as long it doesn't fuck up the economy in the process.

[Jayce]

Here is another question I have about this approach: how do you make tokens valuable in the first place?

Every item in a game has some vendor value that pegs it to the gold standard.  Things that are useful to make other things (wool cloth, arcanite bars) have value over the vendor value.  Gold has intrinsic value because it is used to buy services and items from NPCs at the very least, which turns it into the standard of the realm for cash transactions among players too.

If your tokens would not have a cash value (so as not to peg it to any certain exchange rate) and would not be useful to make certain items, then how would they gain traction as an exchange standard?

[Lantyssa]

Tazel, the only way this works is if the in-game items are assigned a set value and players can only trade them for that amount or an item of equal value.  Also, gold and tokens cannot be given to others.

Why?  An item's worth could fluctuate from 1 token to 1000 tokens under your system.  The players set the values.  However, the cost of buying the token will remain constant.  If a token is very expensive it may keep inflation down somewhat, but it would also cause farmers to make sure they try to sell every single item they find.  Common items then become dirt cheap and way too plentiful, while rare items become farmed/camped for the $100 quick payout.  If tokens are cheap, then inflation can still happen.

Essentially a token system is like having D&D's coinage system of gold and copper, with one form of coin you can legally acquire from the DM by a bribe.  It still does not lead to a healthy economy and people will still be jerks.

PS - That picture of Ann Coulter scares me.  She looks way too much like me in it.  I don't want to ever be mistaken for her. 

[Venkman]

ya, but real money is based on real economy and game money is based on game economy.  It's better not to hard link them. Let each economy figure itself and let the players figure out the exchange rate.

Ya, but your idea doesn't do that because it still requires real money to buy Tokens. This alone links it to the very inbalance you're trying to solve.

[AcidCat]

Or buy pot.

Hehe, there you go, you were obviously baked when you came up with this "token" idea because it's totally broken, as Darniaq explained better than I could.  :-D

People just need to suck it up and deal.

I agree. Of course, I've purchased gold, to afford an epic mount, and to afford my latest RP characters "breathing room" to not worry about saving for mounts, and being able to get decent gear at the AH along the way to smooth my path. 200 gold per character sets you up nicely to gain a "head start" but certainly doesn't make you daddy warbucks. The bottom line for me is it significantly enhances my gaming experience, and the ultimate effect ingame is not significantly different than the potential windfall of getting a Glowing Brightwood Staff drop for you - a pure luck mechanic - and instantly making 900 gold+ at the auction house. Though masses of buyers probably effect inflation in some measure, I think it's inevitable with existing core game mechanics, and my personal contribution to the problem is insignificant.

Of course that's a totally self serving viewpoint, we rationalize what we want to do. What's new?

[tazelbain]

Hehe, there you go, you were obviously baked when you came up with this "token" idea because it's totally broken, as Darniaq explained better than I could.  :-D

You are right! But please whatever you do don't play Puzzle Pirates, witnessing a broken idea function can cause your head to explode.

Here is another question I have about this approach: how do you make tokens valuable in the first place?

Every item in a game has some vendor value that pegs it to the gold standard.  Things that are useful to make other things (wool cloth, arcanite bars) have value over the vendor value.  Gold has intrinsic value because it is used to buy services and items from NPCs at the very least, which turns it into the standard of the realm for cash transactions among players too.

If your tokens would not have a cash value (so as not to peg it to any certain exchange rate) and would not be useful to make certain items, then how would they gain traction as an exchange standard?

There are plenty of MMOGs with items that have no vendor value.  Making tokens valuable would depend on the nature of your game and your revenue model.  If you are being heavy-handed you'd make tokens essential to advancement and gateways to epic content. If you want to take a light touch, you'd have the tokens redeemable for convenience items(quick travel, low downtime). The key would be to make the tokens desirable at all stages of a charater's life.

PS - That picture of Ann Coulter scares me.  She looks way too much like me in it.  I don't want to ever be mistaken for her. 

She's like Skeletor but with a deeper voice.

[Der Helm]

PS - That picture of Ann Coulter scares me.  She looks way too much like me in it.  I don't want to ever be mistaken for her. 

R U a hot fem IRL ?

(sorry, could not resist)

Anyway.

I never played Puzzle Pirates enough to be involved in that token stuff, but EVE does something similar.

CCP (the company behind EVE) does allow the exchange of in game money for Game Time Codes. I heard that there are several players/alliances that don't have to pay real money for playing at all.

I like this system because the money spent stays with the Dev's instead of a 3rd party like IGN or whatever they are called.

[angry.bob]

The problem I have with this (aside from the impact farming has on the market for non-farming players) is that it seems a lot like a band-aid solution to a more fundamental problem. 

As near as I can tell, it’s the only workable, realistic solution. It’s no different than trying to get rid of drugs or hookers really. And there are absolute, concrete examples of which ideas on how to deal with them work best for a society in general. And guess what, it’s making them controlled and legal. I agree though that RMT is the result of a more fundamental problem. In my opinion that problem are flawed decisions regarding the root design and focus of the game itself. However, if you’ve got an alternative to my solution, I’m all ears. But I mean a solution that will actually work. “Ban them all”, “them” being either supplier or consumer, is proven beyond any doubt to not work at all.

But to save people the trouble of reading more if they don’t want to, I’ll win the entire thread and fix the genre right now. Ready? Here it is:

Items are nothing more than tools that characters use to make their game sessions easier and more enjoyable. Even the most powerful weapon, armor, or artifact in a game is ultimately nothing more than a tool to make a player hit harder, soak up more damage, or regen mana faster in the course of normal gameplay. If the primary point of a game is a shitty exercise in getting better and better items that are a bigger and bigger pain to get as you go up the scale of items instead of providing things for you to do with those items that don’t involve immediately trying to replace the item you just got, the game is crap and a failure as a game. It might be a really great, complicated graphical lottery, but it’s not a game. It’s even worse if the point of your game is getting bigger, better items and then you make it so it’s impossible for large numbers of your players to be able to get them. That’s not a game, that most people’s real lives.

That’s why the level 1-59 WoW game is universally lauded as great even by single player standards, and the 60+ game is the subject of trenchant, bitter contention – complete crap for anyone but the same *ahem* people *ahem* who enjoyed EQ - for them it's exactly what they want. It suddenly and irrevocably shifts from being a game to an elitist exercise in the acquisition of exponentially more powerful items for the sole purpose of dickwaving. Of course there’s nothing to do with your great l33t loot but use it to get l33t3r loot.

MMORPGs space out your dings over long periods of time to keep you subscribed.  If you remove all the roadblocks, you'd be able to see the whole game in a few weeks.

Only if the game itself is solely about the acquisition of items and nothing else of consequence. If you remove the foozlel00tz from WoW and EQ, the endgame is fundamentally and irrevocably gone. It literally ceases to exist except for a questionable PvP system, a PvP system that would be far better off if you did get rid of raid loot. Now if you take away foozlel00tz in UO the game wouldn’t have changed because it never really had any, and if you take it out of DAoC it actually vastly improves the game. Both UO and DAoC, even AO managed to be perfectly fine, long-lived MMORPG’s without uberloot. Of course they don’t have WoW’s numbers, but WoW itself doesn’t have WoW’s numbers because of uberloot and raids. It has it because uberloot and raids don’t even enter the picture until you hit the last level. It has such huge numbers because it starts as a fun game without uberloot and raids. If the level 1-59 game was the same as garbage they’ve flung together for the endgame, WoW would have kept fewer people than EQ2.

It might be less frustrating, but it's also less profitable for Blizzard, because once you've got your uber armor, there's naught to do except stand around in Orgrimaar for a while and be admired by passers-by.

As opposed to the wide array of crafting, housing, exploration, or political options available now? The game already consists of sitting in Ironforge/Orgrimmar, interrupted by occasional trips to get different outfits.

Maybe you can steamroll some PUGs in a battleground or ten, but once you've hit that last "Ding!" the cancellation button is often not far behind. Paying real money for game money is a way to remove those roadblocks, but it comes with problems.  From the perspective of Blizzard, you've got the problem of players instantly amassing a mountain of loot and then hitting the cancel button when the realize there's nothing they can do with it.

 
Reality argues the direct opposite. People are already buying mountains of gold, and have been since launch. I bought my first 20gp in WoW on launch day. Yes, 20gp on launch day. Those same players buying a pile of money are not, and have not been quitting after buying it. In fact, I put forth the argument that it’s had the opposite effect in allowing people with an interest in the game, but not the time to farm for hours and hours to continue playing past the point where they would have normally been compelled to quit. Besides, like Train Wreck in the FFO thread, when people pay money for something they want to get their money’s worth, even if it means spending more money to do it. To the person who just spent $100 to buy 2000gp to buy the purple belt, the monthly sub fee is so trivial as to be nonexistent when it comes to enjoying their money and what it gets them.

From the player perspective, the problem is more along the lines of "why the hell am I paying money to play a game so that I can pay more money so that I don't have to play the game as much … For a regular player who's not buying gold for real dollars, that means that they're paying money (their subscription fees) to waste a lot of time stumbling over roadblocks that other players are bypassing. 

What was that saying earlier in the thread? You pay to play, not to win. If people feel that the designed progression of gameplay is roadblocks that they’re stumbling over, then the game company should take a long hard look at their game. Also if enough players are feeling that it’s that much easier to buy gear, or that buying it is the only way they can get it, that also indicates something in the game is broken and needs looked at. But instead of looking at it and fixing it, they’re designing even less attainable items that so few people will acquire before the next generation of games come out, why even bother. I mean, after the requirements to getting the latest round of announced gear, what can they possibly do to make the stuff more aggravating to get? They’ve got one more round of itemization and then you’re looking at the same requirements to get tier 5 legs as it took to open the gates of AQ on a server. And then what do they do? They can’t make stuff of equal quality that’s easier to get. People will scream about cheapening their “accomplishments”. They can’t make stuff of equal quality equally hard to get, people will scream about loot progression. They can’t make better stuff harder to get, this next set is about at the limit as it is. They can’t go back and make less powerful stuff , people will scream about loot progression even louder. So what happens? The loot system in WoW implodes after this next set. These next armor sets are going to strain the resources of guilds like FOH and their ilk. Does Blizzard think that it’s even realistic to think more than a very few people will ever get it? Are enough people playing so delusional to pretend to themselves that they’ll ever reach the point where they’ll get it?

Also, allowing RMT transactions of items allows players to participate in aspects of the game they want to without being forced into aspects they have no interest in. Being able to buy tierX epic gear would allow a great number of people to PvP who otherwise never would or who have to raid to get the gear, but don’t like the baggage attached to raiding. It would also allow people joining guilds or friends on other servers to skip up the gear progression past stuff there’s no realistic chance they’ll be able to get. As it stands now? Want to join your friends from work in AQ40? Great, just work your way up, join a guild just starting MC, and in half a year from the time you start you’ll have reached the point your friends were at six months ago but have now progressed way past. So get cracking with your new friends, because it’s easier to just make new friends than to ever catch up and play with the ones you already have. See, it’s social! With RMT gear, you level to 60 ASAP and then buy the gear you need to be with your friends.

As far as people buying the same gear that other people “worked” to get, that’s a very easy fix. Just make the for-purchase stuff have a different graphic and slightly worse stats. That’s got the added bonus of allowing l33tists to immediately know who “doesn’t know how to play their class and raid” or whatever it is they say to make themselves feel better.

Regardless, people with money IRL get advantages that people with less money don’t, even if the game companies do whatever is necessary to stop it – which would be shutting down their own game or selling the gold more reliably for cheaper. Those are the only two ways to stop third part RMT in any sort of online economy. Period. Anyway, Q.Q, go start a class war if you don’t like it. Not you specifically, I mean the people who don’t like people with money being better than they are.

MMORPGs are built around the concept of rewards vs. time.  If I see someone else getting more rewards but spending less time, then when I look back at the game, it starts to look unfair.  The whole mechanism underlying the entire game starts to look broken.

I emboldened the most important part of your whole post. The reason the entire game starts to look broken, is because it is broken. The simple fact that my premise that RMT transactions are necessary for a significant enough portion of the population to continue playing means the gameplay is broken in and of itself. Like I said, it’s not 1,000 people supporting a multimillion dollar WoW gold industry every month.

So, I don't think legitimizing RMT is an optimal solution from either the perspective of Blizzard or the players who don't buy gold.  It's probably different for the players who are buying gold, but they're already doing it, regardless of Blizzard's position, so what would Blizzard gain by telling them it's okay?

Right – they’re already doing it and will keep doing it no matter what. So since they’re already doing it, there are no real credible arguments for negative effects springing up other than it would annoy a group of people who will complain a lot but never quit. The very same people complaining about the farmers and their effect on the game. What would blizzard gain? Well, a near instantaneous end to the farming problem and an extra several million dollars in pure profit as a start. I’m having a tough time spotting the downside.

/agree 100%.  If RMT becomes legitimized, players who don't spend buy gold/items will feel like their acheivements are hollow …  because if everyone has the best armor and highest level, why would anyone admire you?

The “achievement” of getting loot in WoW is hollow, and trivial. The people who admire others for spending hours and hours on raids getting nothing while they build up DPK for a pair of pants are tools. Who cares what they think about anything. People who want people to admire them for sitting on their ass and getting shiny pants are even sadder tools and failures as human beings.

This is why I disagree in principle even with people being run through low level dungeons by their high level friends.  If you don't want to waste time playing the game, why play the game?

Because I want to enjoy the game aspects of it with people I like, not the grudging socialization with appropriately leveled and geared people who conform to an artificial socio-itemization hierarchy in order to substitute real accomplishments in the real world for some delusional reality where my life doesn’t suck for whatever reason I’m trying to escape and I struggle to curry the envy of people who matter so little to me personally that it wouldn’t matter if they all died in car accidents aspect of it. I like my games to be games, not a replacement escapism device to replace drugs, religion, or a Pavlovian scratch-off lottery experiment with gnolls

[AcidCat]

Those same players buying a pile of money are not, and have not been quitting after buying it. In fact, I put forth the argument that it’s had the opposite effect in allowing people with an interest in the game, but not the time to farm for hours and hours to continue playing past the point where they would have normally been compelled to quit.

I think this is absolutely true. When you're buying gold, you're making an investment in the game that is probably going to keep you there longer. Hard as it is to walk away from a game you've invested so much time in, it's even harder when you've invested money beyond the normal monthly charge.

The “achievement” of getting loot in WoW is hollow, and trivial. The people who admire others for spending hours and hours on raids getting nothing while they build up DPK for a pair of pants are tools. Who cares what they think about anything. People who want people to admire them for sitting on their ass and getting shiny pants are even sadder tools and failures as human beings

Well said indeed.

[bhodi]

Isn't that part of battered wives syndrome? The idea that people stay in bad relationships becuase they've already invested so much time into them already?

What the fuck people, get a grip. I'm a hardcore raider, but when I get bored of this game I'll sell my character for some cash and start on the next new thing, maybe with some new people I picked up in this one. My only regret is that I didn't sell my character in UO or FFXI. I won't make that mistake again!

[Venkman]

Making tokens valuable would depend on the nature of your game and your revenue model. If you are being heavy-handed you'd tokens essential to advancement and gateways to epic content. If you want to take a light touch, you'd have the tokens redeemable for convenience items(quick travel, low downtime). The key would be to make the tokens desirable at all stages of a charater's life.

Again though: how does this differ from the variety of systems already in place? Being able to buy for RL cash all sorts of advancement in games doesn't solve the core inbalances that exist in the first place. Whether you buy a pre-rolled character for EA for UO or buy a bunch of tokens to unlock skillpoint levels in UO, it's the same goal.

RMTing is already being built into the foundations of game mechanics such that in a few years WoW is going to feel like an anachronistic throwback. Some are using token-esque ideas, others are more straightforward. Whatever it is, those games are coming, and they'll inspire new thinking even on this side of the pond.

Like I said, it’s not 1,000 people supporting a multimillion dollar WoW gold industry every month.

While I agree with much of your assertions, this part I'm not so sure about.

The industry for RMTing is huge, but is it because zillions of players use these things, or is it because a goodly number of traders are buying and selling to play the market? Are really most of the transactions to end users?

I ask because I've long wondered about this, and haven't really seen any definitive proof either way. You are a good example of someone who buys for use, but you also think the game is worth more than I do. I'd be interested in what percentage of your social circle leans the same way you do, since I know that most of mine leans the other way. We all travel these games with crowds in which we best fit, so this is all anecdotal of course. But I'm hoping to drive to a deeper understanding.

RMTing does nothing for me except expose a system or feature that wasn't built for my playstyle. WoW was built for many playstyles, but there are compartmentalized features for some to focus on. As such, I could find an area to play and thrive in for 14 months, but I knew my limitations. The people with whom I travel the diku-inspired games are basically the same way. Parents, grandparents, homeowners, busy lives, whatever. They know their limits and accept them such that RMTing doesn't benefit them.

It certainly does others. There are people like me who do pay because the game is worth it to them. That's great, the reason why there's something for everyone in this genre.

But there's a fine line between RMTing and Micropayments, the reason I mention the Korean/Chinese games coming above. RMTing connotes a sense of "cheating" where Micropayments are "as intended". The only functional difference is who's promoting the trade, and therefore who actually accepts it happening.

And that's my question: do the majority of RMT transactions result in use by players who don't mind the black market (stocks)? Or are the majority of transactions between RMT companies themselves (mutual funds)?

[Ironwood]

Stop writing about WoW, Bob.  It's eerie to hear my voice in your posts.

[bhodi]

RMTing is already being built into the foundations of game mechanics such that in a few years WoW is going to feel like an anachronistic throwback. Some are using token-esque ideas, others are more straightforward. Whatever it is, those games are coming, and they'll inspire new thinking even on this side of the pond.

It'll inspire new thinking in me all right. Thinking that goes like this: "I don't think I'll buy this game, becuase the cost on the shelf is not how much I'll really end up paying to have fun, that cost is going to quickly skyrocket until I've spent hundreds of dollars in the sake of expediency. Fuck that."

It was a huge hurdle to get me to pay a monthly subscription. I refuse to buy an xbox becuase I hate getting nickled and dimed with xbox live. X amount of dollars to open that door in oblivion? that gets you a giant middle finger from me. This is no different.

In addition, when real money gets involved, you get real management wanting to squeese more and more profits from the game without understanding (or caring about) the concequences. What starts as "for $5 your character can swing 10% faster and take 10% more punishment with these new YELLOW text items!" quickly becomes "You'll need to get 1000 reputation with the emo clan to access the next dungeon. You can either spend 10 hours whacking foozles and slitting their wrists at 100 rep per hour, or you can purchase a FASTPASS for $5 which is redeemable for 100 reputation!" which quickly ends up as "You'll need to buy this item that can ONLY be RMTd to do X Y and Z".

Fuck that. Fuck it long, fuck it hard.